justjohn
King
Hello, ninja!
SGOTM 14 - Team TNT
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Hello, ninja!
Welcome back, ninja! 
Team, until we can move the warrior, about all we can do is check out jj's test game (or make one of your own), maybe try settling 1w and/or figure out what victory condition and what tech path we'd follow. Anyone with interesting results? I haven't had the time to test yet but once the save is out on Aug 10 we should discuss, debate and decide.
One idea, which has already been pointed out, is to build scouts early for exploration and meeting neighbours so we can figure out who they actually are. A scout could watch a worker and we'd know what techs he/she has/hasn't. Getting open borders would be very helpful.
And how valuable would guessing the hidden AI identity be?
Would neilmeister have a choice of AI?
What surprises might we expect from the Wizard?
Get ready to click your heels.....
Team, until we can move the warrior, about all we can do is check out jj's test game (or make one of your own), maybe try settling 1w and/or figure out what victory condition and what tech path we'd follow. Anyone with interesting results? I haven't had the time to test yet but once the save is out on Aug 10 we should discuss, debate and decide.
One idea, which has already been pointed out, is to build scouts early for exploration and meeting neighbours so we can figure out who they actually are. A scout could watch a worker and we'd know what techs he/she has/hasn't. Getting open borders would be very helpful.
And how valuable would guessing the hidden AI identity be?
Would neilmeister have a choice of AI?
What surprises might we expect from the Wizard?
Get ready to click your heels.....
fizbankovi
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2004
- Messages
- 279
edit: does "radom personalites" change the whole civ specs (creative, agressive etc, starting techs, or only the soft values? such as attack courage and peace weight?)
it is quite easy to tell who is creative from the oposing leaders... check the land tiles every turn... creative gets earlier border pop.
aggresive with the free promotions...
spiritual doesnt have hammer plomet to 0 at anarhy...
it is quite easy to tell who is creative from the oposing leaders... check the land tiles every turn... creative gets earlier border pop.
aggresive with the free promotions...
spiritual doesnt have hammer plomet to 0 at anarhy...
fizbankovi
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2004
- Messages
- 279
finding out the personalities will be invauluble if we have a contintent with 3 or more civs. Diplomacy is 100% dependent on the personality.
I have a feeling this game could be the most fun i ever had with civ4. Let me get out my old charts...
CIV4 is so > then CIV 5
I have a feeling this game could be the most fun i ever had with civ4. Let me get out my old charts...
CIV4 is so > then CIV 5
dima42
Prince
Back and ready to test 
. Keath, let us know if/when you move the warrior SE. (I guess we didn't really discuss this, but it seemed obvious)
. Keath, let us know if/when you move the warrior SE. (I guess we didn't really discuss this, but it seemed obvious)The game save is available here:
>Progress and Results Page<
I will download the save and you can do the same. Please remember not to make any irreversible changes if you have a look.
So my question is "Should I move the warrior 1se and post a pic or report what he sees or is there a more effective opening move?"
If you haven't checked in yet, now would be a good time to do so and agree or disagree with this move. I'll give everyone a chance to respond.
>Progress and Results Page<
I will download the save and you can do the same. Please remember not to make any irreversible changes if you have a look.
So my question is "Should I move the warrior 1se and post a pic or report what he sees or is there a more effective opening move?"
If you haven't checked in yet, now would be a good time to do so and agree or disagree with this move. I'll give everyone a chance to respond.
dima42
Prince
Some first thoughts before playing anything:
So I decided to go AH with a commerce emphasis, and then oracle CS and/or chop an army. (Note that using same plan we can also oracle Philosophy, which doesn't waste a scientist on math).
I didn't find any horses in jj's game, so I only bothered to oracle CS. I researched mining but not BW, and got it on turn 69 (1280 bc) without any optimizing (so I bet it can be done by 66 or so).
However, I'm unconvinced that this is all that good. Sure, we can now revolt to bureaucracy, but we have no semblance of an army to start a conquest win, and not a whole lot of use for those multipliers aside the production help. We did get a religion which helps spread our second city borders but we need monuments for happiness anyway (which probably means Stonehenge is very lucrative).
I can't see a way that AH first isn't best. Also, I don't know how to get us any commerce unless we run scientists. So the second time around I decided that I'd still open AH, and get an early writing (either before or after mysticism), but then I would grab BW and chop up an army instead.
Anyway, I didn't bother chopping up an army here because I wasn't able to get the bronze, either. But the second attachment has a turn 83 CS from oracle that utilized an early BW and some chopped settlers. (As well as a pretty lucky late Stonehenge) If bronze is more accessible we can chop an army instead...
I really don't like this commerce-oriented business because I don't actually have any use for CS in this game. So maybe we should aim towards construction instead? At that point if we must, we can attack with archers and catapults...
Bulbing math can still be sensible for grabbing construction our of Oracle...
So, in short:
1. Unless the warrior reveals a wet corn and a fish, I don't really want to think about settles other than 1W. If the warrior does reveal something on that order, we'll need to think again.
2. If settling 1W, no research other than AH makes sense
3. Further research is less clear, but I was unable to achieve any reasonable commerce other than by running library specialists. Something like AH->Writing->Mining->Mysticism->BW seems like a sensible research opening to me. The alternative to investigate would be somehow grabbing BW earlier, but I don't think we have the commerce to justify that trade-off.
I'll start real testing with numbers once we've gotten people on board and moved the warrior.
Spoiler :
So I decided to go AH with a commerce emphasis, and then oracle CS and/or chop an army. (Note that using same plan we can also oracle Philosophy, which doesn't waste a scientist on math).
I didn't find any horses in jj's game, so I only bothered to oracle CS. I researched mining but not BW, and got it on turn 69 (1280 bc) without any optimizing (so I bet it can be done by 66 or so).
However, I'm unconvinced that this is all that good. Sure, we can now revolt to bureaucracy, but we have no semblance of an army to start a conquest win, and not a whole lot of use for those multipliers aside the production help. We did get a religion which helps spread our second city borders but we need monuments for happiness anyway (which probably means Stonehenge is very lucrative).
I can't see a way that AH first isn't best. Also, I don't know how to get us any commerce unless we run scientists. So the second time around I decided that I'd still open AH, and get an early writing (either before or after mysticism), but then I would grab BW and chop up an army instead.
Anyway, I didn't bother chopping up an army here because I wasn't able to get the bronze, either. But the second attachment has a turn 83 CS from oracle that utilized an early BW and some chopped settlers. (As well as a pretty lucky late Stonehenge) If bronze is more accessible we can chop an army instead...
I really don't like this commerce-oriented business because I don't actually have any use for CS in this game. So maybe we should aim towards construction instead? At that point if we must, we can attack with archers and catapults...
Bulbing math can still be sensible for grabbing construction our of Oracle...
So, in short:
1. Unless the warrior reveals a wet corn and a fish, I don't really want to think about settles other than 1W. If the warrior does reveal something on that order, we'll need to think again.
2. If settling 1W, no research other than AH makes sense
3. Further research is less clear, but I was unable to achieve any reasonable commerce other than by running library specialists. Something like AH->Writing->Mining->Mysticism->BW seems like a sensible research opening to me. The alternative to investigate would be somehow grabbing BW earlier, but I don't think we have the commerce to justify that trade-off.
I'll start real testing with numbers once we've gotten people on board and moved the warrior.
Attachments
fizbankovi
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2004
- Messages
- 279
someon should realy move the warrior in the real game...
On the P&R page, two teams have posted a save, both at turn 13. Maybe everyone will move the warrior 1se and follow a similar path. As this is a competition with the other teams, would doing a warrior move 1ne be a variant that might prove interesting?
I think the 1w capitol is very good even if there are goodies exposed by either move. Getting settled on the first move is also a big help.
I am going to pm the dude, bjartur and mbkkbm but if we don't hear from them soon, I think warrior 1se, unless someone else wishes to comment on an alternative. The opening moves very often separate the teams so I'm hoping we don't miss an opportunity.
@dima - I agree about warriors rather than scouts. A warrior with a couple of woodsmen promotions is much better than a scout.
I agree with AH for a starting tech.
I think the 1w capitol is very good even if there are goodies exposed by either move. Getting settled on the first move is also a big help.
I am going to pm the dude, bjartur and mbkkbm but if we don't hear from them soon, I think warrior 1se, unless someone else wishes to comment on an alternative. The opening moves very often separate the teams so I'm hoping we don't miss an opportunity.
@dima - I agree about warriors rather than scouts. A warrior with a couple of woodsmen promotions is much better than a scout.
I agree with AH for a starting tech.
justjohn
King
I agree with most things dima said, including settling 1w unless somethig very special turns up, AH and a worker first, no scouts but warriors (we still need to plan how many and when) etc. The research path I'm not sure about. As I've told, I usually play mostly peaceful games on high levels with a very high research rate. From what we have seen, that would imply cottages in this game, but it might not be what is needed here.
If we can find horses early (in our capital BFC), then we can use chariots for exploration.
If we can find horses early (in our capital BFC), then we can use chariots for exploration.
justjohn
King
One more thing. I notice we've been given Archey as an additional starting tech. I don't understand why, and until we discover more, I don't think it should affect our starting strategy.
dima42
Prince
maybe we have no strategic resources and thus must archer rush?
but more seriously, no resources might mean a catapult+archer army.
but more seriously, no resources might mean a catapult+archer army.
Nice catch, jj. I missed the archery tech. I've been having computer glitches and the net has been wicked slow today. Part of this is the forum but partly my internet connection. It seems most everyone is for moving the warrior 1se and I can make that move and post the result.
It's been some time since I've watched the Wizard of Oz but for those who remember, is there anything that might be part of the story that would affect our early play?
IIRC, the story of Dorothy and Toto begins on a Kansas farm in black and white. Actually I have a vcr which I'm going to watch while we wait for other teamates to respond. Maybe there is a clue....
Back shortly.....
It's been some time since I've watched the Wizard of Oz but for those who remember, is there anything that might be part of the story that would affect our early play?
IIRC, the story of Dorothy and Toto begins on a Kansas farm in black and white. Actually I have a vcr which I'm going to watch while we wait for other teamates to respond. Maybe there is a clue....
Back shortly.....
fizbankovi
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2004
- Messages
- 279
1 se seems reasonable
justjohn
King
I've never seen that move, and I don't really know the story. If there are any clues in the movie, then those of you that know the movie,, have to help me (and others?) out.
The Story of the Wizard of Oz:
Begins in Kansas on a poor farm. All the major characters are met - the farm hands become her companions - strawman, cowardly lion and tin man. Her dog Toto has been in trouble with the local land baron (one of the wicked witches in Oz). To save her dog she runs away and meets a traveling caravan and Mr. Marvel who uses his crystal ball and some trickery to dazzle Dorothy with his mind reading. Her beloved Aunty Em is sad, maybe ill, according to the wizard (as he will become the Wizard of Oz later).
She runs back home as a storm brews. Everyone else is in the storm cellar but Dororthy and Toto are stuck in the house. When a tornado hits the house she hits her head and upon awaking is in the land of the Munchkins. The house landed on and killed the wicked witch of the east so Dorothy is a hero. She meets the good witch of the North who starts her on her journey down the yellow brick road. All is colour now (the original movie was in 1939 - one of the original colour movies)
The yellow brick road follows the path of a spiral and the Munchkins see her off to find the Wizard who, according to the Good Witch of the North is the only one who can get her back home to Kansas. With her shiny red shoes she, her basket and Toto head down the road.
First she meets the scarecrow whose flaw is he has no brain. He joins her hoping the Wizard can give him a brain.
Next they meet a talking apple tree while they are watched by another Wicked Witch (Elvira Gulch, the wealthy baroness, landowner who wanted to take Toto from Dorothy). While gathering apples she discovers the rusted tin man - the one without a heart. He is revived and joins the troup, hoping the Wizard will find him a heart.
That night in a scarey forest, they meet the lion who tries to scare them -- "Put 'em up! Put 'em up!" -- but reveals his flaw, he is cowardly. He joins the troup hoping for some courage from the Wizard.
....more to come unless we all know the story.....
Begins in Kansas on a poor farm. All the major characters are met - the farm hands become her companions - strawman, cowardly lion and tin man. Her dog Toto has been in trouble with the local land baron (one of the wicked witches in Oz). To save her dog she runs away and meets a traveling caravan and Mr. Marvel who uses his crystal ball and some trickery to dazzle Dorothy with his mind reading. Her beloved Aunty Em is sad, maybe ill, according to the wizard (as he will become the Wizard of Oz later).
She runs back home as a storm brews. Everyone else is in the storm cellar but Dororthy and Toto are stuck in the house. When a tornado hits the house she hits her head and upon awaking is in the land of the Munchkins. The house landed on and killed the wicked witch of the east so Dorothy is a hero. She meets the good witch of the North who starts her on her journey down the yellow brick road. All is colour now (the original movie was in 1939 - one of the original colour movies)
The yellow brick road follows the path of a spiral and the Munchkins see her off to find the Wizard who, according to the Good Witch of the North is the only one who can get her back home to Kansas. With her shiny red shoes she, her basket and Toto head down the road.
First she meets the scarecrow whose flaw is he has no brain. He joins her hoping the Wizard can give him a brain.
Next they meet a talking apple tree while they are watched by another Wicked Witch (Elvira Gulch, the wealthy baroness, landowner who wanted to take Toto from Dorothy). While gathering apples she discovers the rusted tin man - the one without a heart. He is revived and joins the troup, hoping the Wizard will find him a heart.
That night in a scarey forest, they meet the lion who tries to scare them -- "Put 'em up! Put 'em up!" -- but reveals his flaw, he is cowardly. He joins the troup hoping for some courage from the Wizard.
....more to come unless we all know the story.....
From this beginning, we might get some information:
1. The tornado carries the house to the land of Oz and she kills one of their enemies - early war with neighbour maybe?
2. Yellow Brick road is a spiral - suggesting a spiral nearby search with our Dorothy (warrior) to meet our neighbours.
3. As mentioned, not all the AI will be nasty, so there is a good AI (the Good Witch), possibly an ally?
4. The journey along the Yellow Brick Road suggests a long and perilous journey to find the Wizard.
Does anyone have ideas about how neilmeister might have taken advantage of the movie to create the scenario?
Edit: The three companions might represent our need for brain (technology), a heart (compassion) and courage to defeat the enemies and especially the Wizard.
1. The tornado carries the house to the land of Oz and she kills one of their enemies - early war with neighbour maybe?
2. Yellow Brick road is a spiral - suggesting a spiral nearby search with our Dorothy (warrior) to meet our neighbours.
3. As mentioned, not all the AI will be nasty, so there is a good AI (the Good Witch), possibly an ally?
4. The journey along the Yellow Brick Road suggests a long and perilous journey to find the Wizard.
Does anyone have ideas about how neilmeister might have taken advantage of the movie to create the scenario?
Edit: The three companions might represent our need for brain (technology), a heart (compassion) and courage to defeat the enemies and especially the Wizard.
Along the way they meet the Wizard but are in no position to do him harm. He sends them off on a journey to defeat the Wicked Witch who knows all about the three companions. She unleashes some flying monkeys who capture Dorothy and Toto and takes them to her castle. The Wicked Witch wants the shiny red slippers Dorothy has, taken from the WW of the East and given to her by the Good Witch. The slippers won't come off, so the WW plans to kill Dorothy
Toto escapes and finds the three companions. To the rescue....
Toto escapes and finds the three companions. To the rescue....
Disguised as soldiers (in a very Tokeinish scene) they enter the castle to save Dorothy. They find her and the tin man smashes in the door with his axe. But, now they are all trapped. As the story goes they escape and lead a merry chase then captured again.
"How 'bout a little fire, scarecrow?" Then the Wicked Witch gets a dose of water from Dorothy and she melts. Dorothy is a hero again. Again they go to the Wizard. "Oh, you liquidated her, eh?". Now the Wizard is found out by Toto who pulls the curtain away revealing trickery not wizardry. Humbug, says the scarecrow.
So, found out, he gives the scarecrow a diploma signifying he has a brain a DOT, Doctor of Thinkology. The lion gets a medal of courage, the Triple Cross and he becomes a member of the Legion of Courage. For the tin man, he gets a testimonial for being a 'good deed doer'. He gets a heart shaped clock. "It ticks!"
"Ain't it the truth, ain't it the truth." Now it's Dorothy's turn, the Wizard is from Kansas and he has a balloon to take Dorothy home. They return to the land of E Plurubus Unum.
The scarecrow is left to rule the Land Of Oz along with the tin man and straw man. Unfortunately, the Wizard leaves alone in the balloon. But, like all good endings the Good Witch comes in to rescue Dorothy and get her back to Kansas. Apparently she has always had the ability to go home. All she needs to do is 'click your heels' three times and repeat "There's no place like home, there's no place like home, there's no place like home". She wakes up at home in bed after surviving the tornado.
It seems like she got a bump on the head and it all was but a dream. All the players are around her and she can't convince them of her adventure. "There's no place like home."
Somewhere over a rainbow starring Judy Garland as Dorothy....
"How 'bout a little fire, scarecrow?" Then the Wicked Witch gets a dose of water from Dorothy and she melts. Dorothy is a hero again. Again they go to the Wizard. "Oh, you liquidated her, eh?". Now the Wizard is found out by Toto who pulls the curtain away revealing trickery not wizardry. Humbug, says the scarecrow.
So, found out, he gives the scarecrow a diploma signifying he has a brain a DOT, Doctor of Thinkology. The lion gets a medal of courage, the Triple Cross and he becomes a member of the Legion of Courage. For the tin man, he gets a testimonial for being a 'good deed doer'. He gets a heart shaped clock. "It ticks!"
"Ain't it the truth, ain't it the truth." Now it's Dorothy's turn, the Wizard is from Kansas and he has a balloon to take Dorothy home. They return to the land of E Plurubus Unum.
The scarecrow is left to rule the Land Of Oz along with the tin man and straw man. Unfortunately, the Wizard leaves alone in the balloon. But, like all good endings the Good Witch comes in to rescue Dorothy and get her back to Kansas. Apparently she has always had the ability to go home. All she needs to do is 'click your heels' three times and repeat "There's no place like home, there's no place like home, there's no place like home". She wakes up at home in bed after surviving the tornado.
It seems like she got a bump on the head and it all was but a dream. All the players are around her and she can't convince them of her adventure. "There's no place like home."
Somewhere over a rainbow starring Judy Garland as Dorothy....
Similar threads
