ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
I can't realistically play before Saturday morning, so there is still time for comment.
SGOTM 14 - Unusual Suspects
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
Oops.
Well, as I said, "Tired." That does make quite a difference.I think it's 3 bpt, because Atlanta doesn't have a road. In the end it probably doesn't matter, though.
I can't open the save until I get home so I'm only going by my notes, but it looks like Philly just got a library, so that's 2, and I believe Boston's is very close. My estimate for HBR was quite rough and on the pessimistic side. It would help to play it out to get a solid number. When the HG finishes (and that can be made to happen on T95) my pop will be 31: I have 5 more population, you have 5 more granaries--don't know how that plays out. As for Seattle, the extra HG pop point will let it immediately whip a monument.
In other words, I don't think it's at all obvious which approach is better. Chris, could you play out my save (and yours if you haven't) a little farther, at least to HBR, to get a better feel for how extra population vs extra granaries works out? I'm completely comfortable letting you decide then which is better. I'd guess they'll be pretty close, and if in doubt you should lean toward yours since you've worked out the kinks.
Ah, just saw Chris's comment about not playing until Saturday. I won't be able to do any more testing until Friday night. Anybody else want to play out both saves to, say, Turn105 (building an academy with a Great Sci in both cases)? Or is there enough impatience with delay and happiness with Chris's plan that we should just go with it? I could certainly understand that, and any advantage with my plan, if it exists, is likely to be small. Perhaps I've talked myself into "Go for launch."
Yamps
Deity
Each granary is worth 2 pop (60 hammers) so judging by this info alone this option is better. Also, they are up earlier and saving additional food. In the end, you'd still have to whip them later before army whipping.
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
And... going for the HG has some risk, the worst case being we sink 100 hammers into a useless aqueduct and get no failure gold. Not likely, but the risk is non-negligible. Launch when ready, Chris. 
Jovan Kukic
Warlord
There is no battle, for now. If we are attacked, we can defend easily. We should attack AIs not too early. We should settle all available free area before attacking AIs. They're paired, so we'll need more army to crush them.
I suggest not to whip for now. We can simply build workers/settlers with our food and hammers. When building army or buildings, our cities can grow. We need plantations more than elephants...for now, to support cottaging all non-hill-non-resource land tiles. If we see our science slider will be low soon, then we should build libraries only in few cities.
With big cities and representation specialists, our empire would be capable to expand and research, even with 0% science slider. Cottages will grow, so our economy will be getting stronger during time.
Early war is a good option only if there is no room to expand, or if enemy has better land than nearby free land, and if enemy is quite close, and much weaker than us
Otherwise, the rest of AIs will gain advantage through our early war.We should settle all available land, and defend it from barbs with weak units. After finishing most of our needed workers/settlers, we should start building granaries, barracks and army. When we get enough units, we should start thinking where to attack.
Conquest of well developed civ with big cities is most efficient and useful if you have caste system to avoid starvation. If AIs also have good land, we need to save most of their citizens from starvation.
What a nice location for a new city, 1SW from copper
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
Jovan, are you suggesting that we research something like Currency, Calender, or CoL before Construction and/or HBR?
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
Realistically, that research decision will happen after my turnset.
Jovan, are you saying we shouldn't even whip the granaries?
You have good points: we still have good land to develop, a war will delay our development, and we don't know enough about the East Witches to commit on Asoka.
What do you think about the Hanging Gardens?
You have good points: we still have good land to develop, a war will delay our development, and we don't know enough about the East Witches to commit on Asoka.
What do you think about the Hanging Gardens?
I don't either see a big difference in Jovan's suggestions and what would happen this turnset. Besides settling the copper city (timing of which is not known to me), I think our aims are pretty compatible. Judicious use of the whip (for example granaries) would not take long to have a net positive effect on population... and the population would come after the proper tiles are improved instead of saving the pop that's working unimproved tiles.
So I'm still OK with the plan, even though I take seriously Jovan's comments about the non-advisability of making an early war. We're basically leaving that option open, and maybe we know more before we take the irrevocable decision.
Jovan Kukic
Warlord
Calendar first. Elepults are not needed for now, because barbs can be stopped with archers and we'll get bronze soon anyway. AIs are too far away, so they don't represent a significant threat. Probably we'll need currency before HBR and Construction, because our empire will be big, and we'll need that 1 trade route per city and maybe even markets in 2-3 cities.
We have more nice land on south to settle, so our priority should be workers/settlers. One city can try to build HG, because other cities which have size 4-5 can make workers/settlers anyway. Newly built cities can make granaries while growing, or warriors/archers if barbs are too annoying.
It's too early to think about whipping granaries. Cities which are big enough to do it shouldn't do it now. Instead, they should keep their 4-5 size, and build workers/settlers. We have nice land to settle, and workers are needed to make cottages
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
I will admit I don't know what to do now. We had a week of discussion, much play testing and plan building, and got a green light for a plan. Now it seems that Jovan is putting out a red light and suggesting a completely different plan. What next?
Edit: note that the builder in my heart likes Jovan's suggested plan...
Edit: note that the builder in my heart likes Jovan's suggested plan...
I'm no wiser than you, Chris. We've basically had as a rule of thumb that the active player should wait for more input if he is uncertain how to proceed. If we're at an impasse deciding between two (or more) alternatives, we usually put it up for vote.
In this case we don't have a fully developed alternative that has any support. I concur that Jovan may be right... but to be an alternative we need to think more about specifics: how many more workers and settlers, in what order and where? Which improvements (cities and tiles) in which order? At least for the same time period we have planned thus far... to sailing.
If Jovan doesn't come with some clarification on those points, someone might want to run a test to see what works best in the alternative (Jovan's) plan.
@Jovan: we could have used these plans better about a week ago.
Not too late, but it would be great if you develop your ideas more. At what technology do you expect us to be going for our first war, assuming the visible land is all there is that's worth settling? What would be the tech order and development plan up to that point? Will this war be more advantageous or less advantageous if we delay it for development techs?BTW: I haven't turned off the greenlight. At a certain level, its up to the discretion of the active player when readiness is sufficient to proceed.
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
Our workers are going to be very busy and we won't have time to build plantations for awhile, so we could probably delay the research decision. (I'd probably start Construction on 0% research, but that's just me.) As for the build-plan, perhaps a mild compromise would be holding off on the NY whipping awhile (especially since it would be whipping away high-value tiles) and let it slow-build or chop the granary. When it grows another pop (or 2?), interrupt the granary (if not done) and build a settler, maybe whipping or chopping to finish it quickly and resume growth. Then settle the marble or copper site.
Another (smaller and later) change would be to have Boston build a settler rather than a library, since this city should probably specialize in production.
As for the HG (and you know I have a bias toward it
), let's wait and see. It's not worth it for 7 cities--9 or 10 might be a different story. We have probably 4 more good sites in our local domain (marble, copper, between copper and Boston, dye), and if we could get a galley/scout over to India maybe we could settle something there, too.
Another (smaller and later) change would be to have Boston build a settler rather than a library, since this city should probably specialize in production.
As for the HG (and you know I have a bias toward it
), let's wait and see. It's not worth it for 7 cities--9 or 10 might be a different story. We have probably 4 more good sites in our local domain (marble, copper, between copper and Boston, dye), and if we could get a galley/scout over to India maybe we could settle something there, too.
Yamps
Deity
- Calendar would be wrong, there are only 3 tiles to improve without IW. Very bad cost benefit.
- We have the Pyramids, why bother with cottages? Caste merchants or scientists would be much better.
- There is a window of opporunity to attack the AI across the sea with a gallyey chain, they are not far. Chris made a strong test save, we'd have the option to strike around 1AD.
- If we don't go to war as planned, when and how? No horses around and AI will have longbows later on for sure.
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
Just to emphasize what kcd said, we're happy with your plan and you're good to go, Chris.
Yamps
Deity
Also to point out, we are not commited to war. The plan is to shut down research after Sailing and to wait for library and academy in Washingon. If we don't want war at that point, we can go for CoL and Rep + Caste. Two new cities are planned in this set, we can get more a bit later.
Jovan Kukic
Warlord
We'll also need IW and CoL before military techs.
Settlers and workers are the best way to grab and improve land. Granaries could be sped up by chopping forest if needed.
It's too early to think about whipping granaries. Cities which are big enough to do it shouldn't do it now. Instead, they should keep their 4-5 size, and build workers/settlers. We have nice land to settle, and workers are needed to make cottages
One more reason to do like I propose, is the fact that we don't know yet where is the Wizard, what is he like, and how we could kill him, so we don't have global military plan yet. With big empire we would be able to conquer AIs two by two. I expected that AIs would block us at SW. That's why I supposed that war is much closer. If we decide to play aggressive, we can simply skip libraries and markets and build only granaries, lighthouses and barracks. For now, we don't need to think about those hard decisions. We can simply delay it. We have enough land to settle, so workers/settlers and warriors/archers are the best we can do
Testing is not much needed, you can simply play, and ask others where to put cities. Position is simple...for now
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
Chris!! I know you're out there! A new save has been posted on the progress page--looks like around T88. Tell us, tell us!
A new save has been posted on the progress page--looks like around T88. Tell us, tell us!
Yamps
Deity
Maybe we won't know anything about the wizard for quite some time, till Astro maybe. Also, if Ragnar and Asoka have horses we'll miss the oportunity to grab those.
If we do go peacefully, I think it's more important to get Rep + Caste scientists earlier than a few more cities. Our current plan leaves both options open, peace and war, so I still support that.
EDIT:
xpost with Xcal, it seems it's late to discuss...
If we do go peacefully, I think it's more important to get Rep + Caste scientists earlier than a few more cities. Our current plan leaves both options open, peace and war, so I still support that.
EDIT:
xpost with Xcal, it seems it's late to discuss...
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
I played seven turns according to the green light plan. Everything is going as expected in our cities.
I stopped because on turn 89, 650 BC, we met the Witches of the West (Monetzuma and Ghandi) and the Witches of the South (Shaka and Mansa).
We also found horses and furs.
The marble city would not have made a culture bridge.
I traded an extra crab to Ragnar for clams on turn 85. Then, on turn 88 I decided to double down to get good relations and open borders, and gifted fish to Asoka. Whoops. I don't know how resource trading works with teams, but I'm guessing I should have done both deals with either Ragnar or Asoka, and not split them up. Anyone know if that matters?
We are connected to the trade network of Ragnar/Asoka and Victoria/Genghis, but not to the new guys. We already have open borders with Victoria/Genghis. Montezuma/Gandhi and Shaka/Mansa will open borders with us.
Ragnar and Asoka are the only ones with Alphabet, and they aren't trading techs.
Diplomatic relations are complicated, to say the least. Everyone knows everyone. There are worst enemy issues. Unfortunately, we are trading resources with everyone's worst enemy...
The critical questions I need feedback:
I uploaded the save so you can check it out, but this is not a handoff.
BUFFY log
CivFanatics log
Spoiler :
I stopped because on turn 89, 650 BC, we met the Witches of the West (Monetzuma and Ghandi) and the Witches of the South (Shaka and Mansa).
Spoiler :
We also found horses and furs.
Spoiler :
The marble city would not have made a culture bridge.
Spoiler :
I traded an extra crab to Ragnar for clams on turn 85. Then, on turn 88 I decided to double down to get good relations and open borders, and gifted fish to Asoka. Whoops.
I don't know how resource trading works with teams, but I'm guessing I should have done both deals with either Ragnar or Asoka, and not split them up. Anyone know if that matters?We are connected to the trade network of Ragnar/Asoka and Victoria/Genghis, but not to the new guys. We already have open borders with Victoria/Genghis. Montezuma/Gandhi and Shaka/Mansa will open borders with us.
Spoiler :
Ragnar and Asoka are the only ones with Alphabet, and they aren't trading techs.
Spoiler :
Diplomatic relations are complicated, to say the least. Everyone knows everyone. There are worst enemy issues. Unfortunately, we are trading resources with everyone's worst enemy...
Spoiler :
The critical questions I need feedback:
- Should we open borders with Montezuma/Gandhi or Shaka/Mansa?
- Should I make a resource gift to Ragnar? We have plenty of health...
- Which direction should I send our exploring archers?
- Is there any use to researching Sailing now (I don't think it will give us any trade routes)?
I uploaded the save so you can check it out, but this is not a handoff.
BUFFY log
Spoiler :
CivFanatics log
Spoiler :
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