SGOTM 14 - Xteam

[Cactus Pete]

Report for Turn 166 to 169 no interruptions tonight, just difficult, slooow play

T166:
Trade wheat to Gandhi for 6gpt
Trade Lib to Gandhi for Banking, map, and 130 gold (Oz island not revealed)

IBT:
Wicked South completes Hagia
Viking and Indian units advance out of fog in force – lose a caravel and a loaded galley
9 land units, including multiple cats, advance on Prayaga along with three more caravels
10 Viking land units (also have multiple cats) advance 2W of Sigtuna, along with two caravels (no explanation where one of them came from unless was produced and activated same turn), and more coming up Viking spoke

T167:
Note can now trade for Economics – will ask for advise on this
Use GG to create supermedic cur and sword, plus give cat experience
Sink the two weakened caravels
Raze Sigtuna (costs two cats) and puzzle out many other measures to counter both attacks (very long turn)

IBT: Both Ragnar and Asoka burn their cats and attack with some success (this is not Vanilla), plus additional Indian knights and other units show up
We lose a galley (Asoka took the bait), 2WE, and a mace to Asoka
We lose an axe and 2 WEs to Ragnar
We are now worst enemy of both northern witches

T168:
Concerned to find that both adversaries now have knights and are employing them against us
After much analysis, conclude that Ragnar can be dealt with but Asoka may have too much of a tactical advantage
Deal with Ragnar – lose a cat and kill a CB, cat, 2WEs, and 2 HAs
Do what I can against Asoka – sink 2 caravels, then lose a cat and a treb taking Bombay (killing knight, LB, and sword), and get rid of 4 HAs next to Prayaga
Pause for consultation . . . interim save is below

The safest thing to do here is to get peace. (Unfortunately, despite all the damage done, we cannot get a cease fire.) Asoka will grant peace for Bombay; Ragnar for Lit and Drama. If we get it with one, we get it with both, right? Asoka could do us serious harm IBT (just with the units visible) if he maximizes his opportunities, but how likely is that? Note that Prayaga will expand and so is not as vulnerable as it looks (plus I can get another cur in the city via ship chain next turn); however, Bombay (a hill city) will certainly fall back to Asoka and all our units surrounding the city could be in danger, depending on what Asoka does and whether more knights are in the fog.

I have explored England and there are few units present. No doubt that will change quickly if we should chose to attack there, so we should bring force. Thinking that in ten turns we might be able to attack on two fronts. Because they have no Open Borders, the Mongols can only get to us by sea, so we might be able to take much of England, get peace, and return south.

Would like to continue in about 16 hours, but await comments.

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[The-Hawk]

Urgh, this war is so painful. The fact that they originally DOW'd us has mucked up our game, they were too well prepared. Better to backstab an unprepared AI.

My first instinct is to carry on the war. In my experience, even in a bloody war, there is a point where you tip the balance. I.e. you've destroyed a bulk of their units and you've started to capture their cities and reduce their ability to reinforce. Of course, in this game, we are in a 2 vs. 1 fight and the second AI's ability to reinforce is intact. So as I think this through, not sure my first instinct is correct. A backstab might be much easier.

The 64K question... have we sufficiently hurt Asoka that we should press the attack? Or is it better to go backstab a weaker opponent?

Let me mull on this a bit and I'll post something later today. If we do decide for peace, we should give Bombay back, vs. techs. Bombay will be a cutoff, one-tile city if we don't capture surrounding cities.

One other thought... since warring is proving so difficult, we might want to consider Diplo after all. We might want to think about managing our relationships with the friendly AI's.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Urgh, this war is so painful. Yes, never before experienced CR2 cats suicide attacking superior units with anti-seige promo outside of a city.

My first instinct is to carry on the war. In my experience, even in a bloody war, there is a point where you tip the balance. I.e. you've destroyed a bulk of their units and you've started to capture their cities and reduce their ability to reinforce. Share your experience, but we have many units at risk. Of course, in this game, we are in a 2 vs. 1 fight and the second AI's ability to reinforce is intact. So as I think this through, not sure my first instinct is correct. A backstab might be much easier.

Let me mull on this a bit and I'll post something later today. If we do decide for peace, we should give Bombay back, vs. techs. Bombay will be a cutoff, one-tile city if we don't capture surrounding cities. Not sure of this. Have just captured Bombay this turn and the Indian culture has not yet returned to its new normal. On a hill, it would be easier to defend than to re-take. Could have only defending units in city and attacking units on ships outside city to avoid collateral damage ready to counterattack. Also, there is not much available to trade it for.

One other thought... since warring is proving so difficult, we might want to consider Diplo after all. We might want to think about managing our relationships with the friendly AI's.

Not sure what that would mean at the moment.

 

[leif erikson]

Testing now, but quite sure peace with one is peace with both.

Thinking we should take peace with Raggie and hold Bombay. More is a while.

 

[The-Hawk]

Not sure what that would mean at the moment.

I have no idea either. I don't know how diplo voting works with teams. For example, West currently would be the opponent in a UN vote. Mansa is friendly with Monty but only marginally pleased with Gandhi. Shaka is marginally pleased with both. So does the one friendly relationship cause a vote for West?

We are also light years from UN at our current tech pace. Also, we have no real hope of a GE to build the UN itself. I suspect we will be looking at a dom victory after all.

Not sure of this. Have just captured Bombay this turn and the Indian culture has not yet returned to its new normal.

Good news is Agra did not become his capital, so less pressure from there. Also, Asoka has no world wonders. So maybe we can hold Bombay. Part of my concern is the city will not be of much value. I think we will be lucky to be able to work the goldmine. Might be a breakeven site at best. Of course, if we can hold it and it is break even, then we should keep it for sure. It will be the launch point for part 2 of the war.

Of course, 10 turns after peace, he may well DOW to take it back. We will need to leave some strong defense behind.

 

[leif erikson]

Peace with one is peace with both.

We are also light years from UN at our current tech pace. Also, we have no real hope of a GE to build the UN itself. I suspect we will be looking at a dom victory after all.

I think this is the key, having to research to Mass Media and build the UN.

Good news is Agra did not become his capital, so less pressure from there. Also, Asoka has no world wonders. So maybe we can hold Bombay. Part of my concern is the city will not be of much value. I think we will be lucky to be able to work the goldmine. Might be a breakeven site at best. Of course, if we can hold it and it is break even, then we should keep it for sure. It will be the launch point for part 2 of the war.

Of course, 10 turns after peace, he may well DOW to take it back. We will need to leave some strong defense behind.

Asoka has 4 more cities in the fog.

Looks like we'll be diverting more resources south, but I do not see any alternative.

Should we try to get Cuirassier promoted to Formation for the bonus versus mounted units?

Guess we'll be needing Grens and Cannons.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I suspect we will be looking at a dom victory after all. Concur.

Good news is Agra did not become his capital, so less pressure from there. Also, Asoka has no world wonders. So maybe we can hold Bombay. Part of my concern is the city will not be of much value. True, but it does have a courthouse. I think we will be lucky to be able to work the goldmine. Might be a breakeven site at best. Of course, if we can hold it and it is break even, then we should keep it for sure. It will be the launch point for part 2 of the war. Concur.

Of course, 10 turns after peace, he may well DOW to take it back. We will need to leave some strong defense behind.

Yes, Thinking I'm not going to move many units from India other than trebs and perhaps CR promoted maces and a healer. It's going to be tricky fighting England while preparing to defend and counterattack Rags and Asoka, but think that combo is the lesser evil now.

What about trading for Econ?

Holding off on civics changes until see how things go, but suspect that next time I pause for consult that will be on the agenda.

Am I okay to take peace, attack England, and to do so in about 3 hours?

 

[leif erikson]

Am I okay to take peace, attack England, and to do so in about 3 hours?

from here.

Good Luck, better go and perform my haka.

 

[The-Hawk]

Yep I am OK with your plan as well.

RE: Econ. Seems like we have more research and economy challenges in front of us. Tech trading will be critical given our tech rate. I'd go for it.

RE: Civics. When we get there, we will want to revolt to Mech or Free Markets as well.

 

[Htadus]

Lets take peace for the techs. By the time the cities come out of Anarchy, who knows, we may be in slavery. Also trade drama for gold to the other teams. If we are going to stay in Rep, then merc is better that FM.

By the way we are not back stabing england. I am all for going after them. 2 sets of 3-4 galleons full of units should start simultanious attack along the 2 sea routes.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Trading for Econ and peace, then. Playing now.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Report for turns 168 (1080 AD) to 172 – exceedingly dull by comparison

T168:
Note PPress is needed for both Democracy and RParts, so trade Lib to Shaka for Econ and 110 gold
Trade Drama and Lit for peace

T169-172:
Rest of play is uneventful, just advance forces.
Good witch of South adopts Free Religion, and Wicked witch of West completes the Minaret

What about trading Paper for gold?
Still don’t like switching civics, but perhaps someone can make a good case.

I will continue play in about 8 hours

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[The-Hawk]

Looks fine to me.

Maintenance is starting to become a problem, we will need to build some CH's soon. However, first priority is building units until we are well along with our war with North.

If we are going to remain in caste a while longer, and given we have more research in front of us, wondering if we should build the seafood city SW of NK. With two seafood resources and a mine on the grass hill, should be productive pretty quickly. Especially if NY build two wkbts for it.

/edit: Even if we switch to caste, we might want the seafood city. It can whip a lib and maybe a market to run some specialists.

RE: paper: I think any trade for gold is a good thing. Not sure withholding trades will stifle the AIs tech rate all that much.

 

[leif erikson]

Agree with Hawk, Paper trade look fine to me.

Would be nice to get a Merchant out of Philly, but that looks like long odds.

Thinking it might help quite a bit to change civics to Free Religion and Free Market? Lose the cost of +1 gpt for each unit (add +10% research per city) and increase trade routes by +1 per city? Sorry, can't do the math, got to leave to see my daughter compete in crew this morning in Boston.

Good Luck!

 

[Cactus Pete]

Hope your daughter did well, leif, and you stayed warm spectating.

The benefits of Free Market are clear and significant, but does the extra 10% science from Free Religion do us much good when we are running 0% science (other than 10% of specialists science), so Theo seems more powerful. Not sure they're worth going into anarchy for right now though.

Don't want to take NY off of galleons to build wkbts at this point, and anticipate several new English cities taken soon, but will move one of the settlers there to have the option.

Thanks for the timely feedback. Trading Paper, playing now, will post when think there's need for discussion.

 

[The-Hawk]

I'll check in later tonite

 

[Htadus]

That save is not ready for war. It is only 1 turn of anarchy to get both PS and Slavery and whip and army. Then blitz england from the hub and naval. Just 2 big teams. Eliabeth will be forced to breakup her defense. We need to use all we got. So after whipping, we may want to draft just 1 unit per city for 5 turns. That will give us a stack for continued advancement. Muskets can protect Trebs and what not while cuira's heal.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Have initiated war (without changing civics) -- so far so good.

Must stop for several hours, but will continue tonight and post a report.

Does look like we're close to changing some Civics. Comments welcomed.

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[leif erikson]

The benefits of Free Market are clear and significant, but does the extra 10% science from Free Religion do us much good when we are running 0% science (other than 10% of specialists science), so Theo seems more powerful. Not sure they're worth going into anarchy for right now though.

Think you are correct, Free Market and Theology are probably the best atm. Anything to get us out from under paying a gpt for each unit, with all these units.

Although I checked the financial advisor and am We have 94 units (of all types) and have free support for 64 units? Then there are the Military Units, we must have 79, that we get free support for 20 and pay 59 gpt for the rest. Not sure what costs go to zero with the change from Pacifism?

Distance Maintenance for cities is now 50 gpt, with 48 gpt for number of cities.

Have initiated war (without changing civics) -- so far so good.

Does look like we're close to changing some Civics. Comments welcomed.

Things are getting bleaker on this front. No longer can we get a twofer. First civic change costs a turn and the next two cost another turn. We now get three civic changes for 2 turns.

Thanks for the timely feedback. Trading Paper, playing now, will post when think there's need for discussion.

Wish I could give you something to make it easier, but cannot think of a thing?

Hope your daughter did well, leif, and you stayed warm spectating.

She did well. First time my wife and I have been able to see an event. They rowed on the Charles River in Boston and we stood on one of the bridges to watch. The course was 2.5 miles, so we saw her for a small part of that. Tough as a spectator sport, but she seems to really like it, a great thing. It was a bit windy, but comfortable.

Today ended the fall rowing season. Now they have strength training to do which culminates in 10 days in Florida from 5 - 15 January to prepare for the spring season. Guess it'll be nice to get away from New England snow in trade for the Florida sun?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Pacifism is reasponsible for the $59 military unit cost; however, since Theo will cost us $24 more than Pacifism, the net gain in gold for switching is only $35. Real issue, as you implied, is cost of lost production in anarchy. Rather do that when WW becomes an issue, but if Rags declares will have to.

Playing now.