SGOTM 14 - Xteam

[-Asterix-]

Good progress, guys!

Sad to say but I won't be very useful during this week due to RL. I'm hoping to finish the ongoing GOTM on time, though, and then there's that Skyward Sword... As deadline for this game is closing in fast, I think it's best to leave the actual playing to those who have been active during the last turnsets and know best what's going on.

 

[The-Hawk]

Some general comments and thoughts so far...

I rather like the idea of getting a trade route out of that GMerchant, but the problem is getting him there. Walking to the likes of Delhi or Tenochitlan (bound to be good locations for a trade route) would take 9 turns and would require an escort of a currasier at least (perhaps 2 and we wouldn't want to include a slow unit or we'd double the travel time). An alternative is to take him by sea, but since we don't have any surviving caravels and we don't have (and are not likely to get) open borders with Mongolia, we'd need to wait to build the caravel... And we might have to escort the caravel with a frigate to ensure he gets there - or if we wanted to take him by the south route in a galleon, which would be a long way and definitely require a frigate escort.

I'm seeing this trade route is not going to come about any time soon. If we want to use him for a golden age we should do it without taking him on a long and dangerous journey first! Does anyone know how much we would get for a trade mission? I don't want to try the check in the live game because he might move. My rough count says we get about 200 hammers/commerce per turn from a GA (also more GPPs, but not sure they matter so much). Of course, as CP points out, whipping and drafting will reduce the impact of the GA.

Regarding getting to the Emerald City, the privateer can get within sight in 19 turns of movement assuming no detours or other problems on the way, and that is not taking into account dealing with that indian caravel... An alternative is building a privateer in Nottingham (6 turns to build it?) plus then a 15 turn voyage. That would leave the existing privateer available for other mischief, but obviously would take a couple of extra turns. Might as well use the existing one.

Any comments?

Tech - would go to steel next assuming a military victory is pretty much our only option now? GScientists are not going to help us on that route for a while with SciMeth, Physics, Biology and Electricity looking to be all more popular GSci bulbs. If we get a bunch of them though I'd be tempted to push us along the way to physics as the blimps can be very useful - I wouldn't want to tech that way before getting infantry, but if we get more of scientists... Comments? Agreed. At this point, we would need a bunch of GSs. I would head for Inf after Steel. If we get a bunch, we can go for Physics later (maybe get some trades along the way). Speaking of trades, we probably should think about our next targets. I assume Rags will be killed off, then we go get GK. But which of the remaining teams is next? Whoever it is, we should probably trade with the other.

Drafting - those unhappies hurt - I might lay off for one turn so I can draft some grens with the next batch of unhappies... With a specialist economy, unhappy faces are a dead weight and we still need to make tech progress. Agreed

I like leif's suggestions of troops near Agra/Bombay by sea to Bangalore, the mob near SanFran to Ayodhya and the idea of a canal through the land arm near Ayodhya. Agreed

I think there are some more courthouses that can be built (eg SanFran) - can we afford the hammers off military units to do that? Can we afford not to try reducing our maintenance? Tough call. I am inclined to build some CHs. On the other hand, looking at the progress graphs, we are falling behind in power and score. Maybe we should take the risk our ecomony tanks.

Any comments welcome. Early evening here now - hope to post a plan tomorrow morning.

RE: Frigates. For some reason, I thought we were already building them. Guess that explains why we built a privateer .

 

[leif erikson]

I rather like the idea of getting a trade route out of that GMerchant, but the problem is getting him there. Walking to the likes of Delhi or Tenochitlan (bound to be good locations for a trade route) would take 9 turns and would require an escort of a currasier at least (perhaps 2 and we wouldn't want to include a slow unit or we'd double the travel time). An alternative is to take him by sea, but since we don't have any surviving caravels and we don't have (and are not likely to get) open borders with Mongolia, we'd need to wait to build the caravel... And we might have to escort the caravel with a frigate to ensure he gets there - or if we wanted to take him by the south route in a galleon, which would be a long way and definitely require a frigate escort.

Htadus mentioned that we would see more gold from a trip to the city with the Mausoleum of Mausollos. It is located in the Zulu city of uMgungundlova, located in the extreme south of Zulu territory SE of Ulundi, just west of Raggie's lands. Paused the game and ran the cursor there and it says 7 turns, but didn't entirely check the route for safe travel, so maybe a few more. But Zulu territory seems safe enough once he gets there.

Regarding getting to the Emerald City, the privateer can get within sight in 19 turns of movement assuming no detours or other problems on the way, and that is not taking into account dealing with that indian caravel... An alternative is building a privateer in Nottingham (6 turns to build it?) plus then a 15 turn voyage. That would leave the existing privateer available for other mischief, but obviously would take a couple of extra turns.

this is a long term project now. Caravel requires 4-turns in Nottingham, think we should build it and send it.

Seems a waste to make that trip without some units, but do not know how to do that atm.

Tech - would go to steel next assuming a military victory is pretty much our only option now? GScientists are not going to help us on that route for a while with SciMeth, Physics, Biology and Electricity looking to be all more popular GSci bulbs. If we get a bunch of them though I'd be tempted to push us along the way to physics as the blimps can be very useful - I wouldn't want to tech that way before getting infantry, but if we get more of scientists... Comments?

Yes, the problem now is whether we trade for SciMeth while we have the chance and what we would have to give up to get it?

If we continue to fall behind in tech, we may not be able to trade for it later and will have to research it, or use GS's.

I like leif's suggestions of troops near Agra/Bombay by sea to Bangalore, the mob near SanFran to Ayodhya and the idea of a canal through the land arm near Ayodhya.

The more I think about this, the more I would be inclined to take Lahore en route first to break Asoka's back, then go on to Raggie.

I think there are some more courthouses that can be built (eg SanFran) - can we afford the hammers off military units to do that? Can we afford not to try reducing our maintenance?

Yes, think you are correct. Should try to work them in as you get a chance.

RE: Frigates. For some reason, I thought we were already building them. Guess that explains why we built a privateer .

I'm wrong, as usual. We are about to get Military Science.

And both Gandhi/Montie and Zulu/Malinese have Chemistry. Oh my, I am losing it.

Forget Privateers.

Sorry about that.

 

[Cactus Pete]

If we can get the GM to a good city in 7 turns, like using the GM for a trade route, trading for ScM now, and waiting on the next GP to determine whether we go for a GA or double bulb to Physics. A later GA would allow us to draft some grens and build some pop back before the GA.

Wouldn't be building courthouses where we have a barracks or where a frigate can be put into useful play quickly. The military effort needs to be accelerated rapidly.

 

[Mad Professor]

If we can get the GM to a good city in 7 turns, like using the GM for a trade route, trading for ScM now, and waiting on the next GP to determine whether we go for a GA or double bulb to Physics. A later GA would allow us to draft some grens and build some pop back before the GA.

I rather like the idea of getting our hands on SciMeth while we can also, though I'm nervous about the military techs we have to give up to do it considering sooner or later we might have to attack the team we give these techs to.

The best deals we can get from the two teams with SciMeth (as of right now, not considering what we might be able to do with Military Science next turn) are:

Mansa will give us SciMeth plus 130 gold for Military Tradition
Monty will give us SciMeth plus map plus 90 gold for Military Tradition
Monty will give us SciMeth plus Divine Right plus map plus 90 gold for Military Tradition and Gunpowder

This last one is probably not a go because Divine Right is not going to help us. I would be interested in comments on the idea of giving Monty and Gandhi Military Tradition in order to get SciMeth (plus 90g plus map) or giving Mansa and Shaka Military Tradition to get SciMeth plus 130 gold.

The benefit to us is that if we get another GScientist we are fairly close to Physics and blimps. Otherwise further GScientists will be not worth a great deal to us as we need different types of GPersons for GA's. The downside is we hand Military Tradition on a silver platter to someone we might have to attack. Comments?

 

[leif erikson]

Hate to be a pessimist, but Physics also leads to Artillery, so worth it should we need future firepower.

While I would love to get Mansa's 130 Gold, the terrain seems to lead me to trading to Montie. Seems to me that Mansa/Shaka may have to be our near future target.

Only problem is that Mansa/Shaka and Gandhi/Montie are getting pretty tight, although I do not see positive diplo relations for trading. Hope they keep tech for themselves?

 

[Cactus Pete]

A later GA will be able to take advantage of former Indain citizens.

Never got any feedback on my skepticism that a single resource -- e.g. horses -- could be shared by a witch pair. If not, reiterate that at least pillaging Asoka's horses might be wise.

 

[Htadus]

leif, you missed what I said. It is Temple of Artemes that yield most gold.

MP, I am glad you want to wait for Grens for drafting.

BTW, drafting a unit and whipping another for 2-3 pop in the same city yield 2 units and 4 unhappy. It works beutifully.

There is a way to find out how many gold can be yielded by a GM trade . I am a bit skettchy since I have not done it in a long time.

1. You pause the game.
2. select the GM,
3. right or left click on the city tile intended for the trade trip.
4. It use to tell how much gold is the GM bring in. But I can not remember the details.
5. Oh yeah, cancel the GM movements before unpausing the game.

I will comment when I am not tired and been fed, just got home and raked the front.

CP, if I recall correct, resources are individual use only since I recall trading the same resources to different partners. If my Peter game is still available, I will check it, but I doubt I have the files.

 

[leif erikson]

Never got any feedback on my skepticism that a single resource -- e.g. horses -- could be shared by a witch pair. If not, reiterate that at least pillaging Asoka's horses might be wise.

CP, if I recall correct, resources are individual use only since I recall trading the same resources to different partners.

Just ran a test of this. Htadus is essentially correct and I am not.

The team members do not automatically share resources. They must trade them to each other. In the test I was given whatever I ask for from my team mate, even if he had only one resource. Surely the AI isn't smart enough to do that, so I think CP is correct, take the city or pillage the horse and we deny Asoka Horses, unless Raggie has two.

Bangalore is next up on the city hit list, so we can land on the Horse tile and pillage it.

leif, you missed what I said. It is Temple of Artemes that yield most gold.

This is even better, Ulundi is where Temple of Artemis is and it is a bit closer (1-turn), so 6 turns instead of 7.

BTW, drafting a unit and whipping another for 2-3 pop in the same city yield 2 units and 4 unhappy. It works beutifully.

Interesting.

There is a way to find out how many gold can be yielded by a GM trade . I am a bit skettchy since I have not done it in a long time.

1. You pause the game.
2. select the GM,
3. right or left click on the city tile intended for the trade trip.
4. It use to tell how much gold is the GM bring in. But I can not remember the details.
5. Oh yeah, cancel the GM movements before unpausing the game.

Just tried, didn't work for me.

I will comment when I am not tired and been fed, just got home and raked the front.

Hope you enjoyed your dinner.

Almost time for mine.

 

[Mad Professor]

Thanks for the feedback - any other comments on the tech trade...? Leif's comments about physics also heading towards artillery are important, but I sure hope we don't have to tech that far... Getting to assembly line will be chore enough!

I should be back in about an hour or so with a plan. Meanwhile any further comments?

 

[Mad Professor]

OK - here's a plan of sorts:

Tech + G People
Finish Military Science this turn, then study Steel. The idea being we head towards Assembly Line ASAP
Trade Military Tradition to Monty for SciMeth, 90g and map
Try to get GMerchant to Zululand for trade route. Initially give him Currasier escort until safe in Zulu territory (neither Asoka nor Ragnar have open borders with Shaka)
Save GScientist for now. If next GPerson is not a scientist, we have the possibility of a golden age using two Gpeople. If the next GPerson is a scientist, then we’ll have two scientists which will bulb us most of physics to get close to blimps. (And put us closer to Artillery should that be needed!)
After about six turns or so when the GMerchant completes the trade route, we’ll have some cash to burn either on upgrading units or hurrying tech progress. Are there any comments on cash management? Should I be burning what we’ve got, saving some, upgrading units?

Seeing the Emerald City
Fastest way is to take current privateer there in 19 turns, assuming the privateer can arrive in one piece.
A backup in case of hostilities against the privateer could be building a Caravel in Nottingham in 4 turns, but the caravel is slow and would take another 22 turns after that to reach the Emerald City.
The Indian caravel currently in our waters could be dealt with by the frigate that will be produced in New York this turn.

Drafting
Will not draft this turn, instead waiting one turn until Military Science is in so that the drafting when resumed will be grens, getting the biggest bang for the unhappies that we can get.
After that I will draft grens as I can, but I’m cautious about creating too much unhappiness – we already have severe emancipation unhappiness and war weariness in some cities neither of which will improve in the foreseeable future unless we can get democracy for Military science plus gunpowder or something. Not sure about doing this though – the unhappies would have to be very bad before I did that trade.

General Military Strategy
Units currently in the Agra/Bombay area that will fit in boats should be loaded and sailed to attack Bangalore
Units on boats in San Francisco will be sailed to attack Ayodhya
Other units not fitting on boats and still healing in San Francisco can when ready attack Oslo and Ujjain by land, joined by forces walking from England. Hopefully these forces will also be adequate to deal with any stacks coming out of Viking land in that area.
After that, we try to get a canal south of Ayodhya to get forces in the Ayodhya/Ujjain area quickly through to take Lahore, and forces near Bangalore move on the remaining two Indian cities (Assisted by galleons where appropriate) to wipe Asoka off the map. Get onto Nidaros ASAP, but it’s difficult to say how fast that will happen.

Cities
Continue pumping units out of the war machine in our heartland
Cities in old England have some basic buildings to build, once that is done they can build wealth or units depending on the state of the economy
If there’s a courthouse missing somewhere and I see a good opportunity to slip it in I will, though that will depend on what losses we are taking in war because units are very important

Civics
There’s been a little discussion about resuming slavery. Not something I would have done myself, but I see the benefits – are there any further comments on this? I can be convinced!

I could play in about 30-36 hours from now if people are happy for me to do that by then.

 

[leif erikson]

Know this plan was not easy to create.

Agree with nearly everything you wrote. A couple of comments:

After about six turns or so when the GMerchant completes the trade route, we’ll have some cash to burn either on upgrading units or hurrying tech progress. Are there any comments on cash management? Should I be burning what we’ve got, saving some, upgrading units?

May want to consider consulting when the GM Mission is complete if you are not sure. Making recommendation 6 or 7 turns out in this situation is probably not too productive as we do not know what we'll be facing.

A backup in case of hostilities against the privateer could be building a Caravel in Nottingham in 4 turns, but the caravel is slow and would take another 22 turns after that to reach the Emerald City.

I'm not as worried about this happening so quickly, there is much to overcome b\efore we can even get there. I think you'll need the Privateer to help keep sea lanes open near Raggie. He had quite a few Caravels and we paid through the loss of our Caravels, but we did gain needed intelligence, so it was worth the price imho.

I'm just as happy if you build whatever is best in Nottingham and send it along. Will certainly go along with the team's decision, but my $0.02

After that I will draft grens as I can, but I’m cautious about creating too much unhappiness – we already have severe emancipation unhappiness and war weariness in some cities neither of which will improve in the foreseeable future unless we can get democracy for Military science plus gunpowder or something. Not sure about doing this though – the unhappies would have to be very bad before I did that trade.

This sort of depends upon when we are considering Slavery. As Htadus said, we can whip away some of the unhappies if we need to and turn them into units. The concern, of course, is the economy. A bunch of red faces begs for Slavery.

After that, we try to get a canal south of Ayodhya to get forces in the Ayodhya/Ujjain area quickly through to take Lahore, and forces near Bangalore move on the remaining two Indian cities (Assisted by galleons where appropriate) to wipe Asoka off the map. Get onto Nidaros ASAP, but it’s difficult to say how fast that will happen.

All of Raggie's focus for units has been attacking SanFran. Last opportunity I had to look, he had a small stack building in his far western city on the spoke. Cannot see it now as the Caravel got sunk, but please keep a watchful eye on the road to SanFran.

Civics
There’s been a little discussion about resuming slavery. Not something I would have done myself, but I see the benefits – are there any further comments on this? I can be convinced!

The more units we can put out the faster this will be over and Slavery is a powerful tool for this. The balancing act is the economy. As long as you feel like you are making satisfactory progress, then we probably do not need Slavery. If you get bogged down, or we start getting too many red faces, time to consider the civic change?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Read quickly, but didn't find anything in the plan about denying Asoka horses (and knights).

Regarding whether to hoard gold or not: upgrading a CR3mace to a CR3gren is worth the gold, because the gren is likely to survive for a long time and be able to take out cities best defenders; other upgrades are more problematic, but if you need maces into gren to deal with a given situation, probably worth it. We need to capture territory with all deliberate speed.

 

[Mad Professor]

Read quickly, but didn't find anything in the plan about denying Asoka horses (and knights).

OK - forgot to mention that but I had it in mind. The fleet attacking Bangalore will land on the horses tile and plunder - unless I think there's a good chance of taking the city straight away which is the same thing as far getting rid of Asoka's horses.

Regarding whether to hoard gold or not: upgrading a CR3mace to a CR3gren is worth the gold, because the gren is likely to survive for a long time and be able to take out cities best defenders;

Yes. Grens have a bonus attacking rifles too don't they? That makes a CR3 gren rather deadly against a defending rifleman. I fear we will not end this game before our last target has rifles defending their cities...

Another thought - grens upgrade to machine guns which we definitely would NOT want to do with a CR3 gren - do they upgrade to infantry as well? If so fine, since we're heading towards infantry, because CR3 infantry really kick butt and you have to get the CR3 promotion while they are still maces because you can't give grens or infantry CR promotions.

other upgrades are more problematic, but if you need maces into gren to deal with a given situation, probably worth it. We need to capture territory with all deliberate speed.

What about more boats? Are more galleons going to speed conquest? If we can get a real lot of units produced, obviously we can attack more places at once speeding up conquest, but on this map, sea transport is important for getting around the wheel fast.

May want to consider consulting when the GM Mission is complete if you are not sure. Making recommendation 6 or 7 turns out in this situation is probably not too productive as we do not know what we'll be facing

Yes I think by 6 or 7 turns in I might be wanting a break... I could post an interim save at that point and ask for comment before continuing as soon as it looks like we're ready.

The more units we can put out the faster this will be over and Slavery is a powerful tool for this. The balancing act is the economy. As long as you feel like you are making satisfactory progress, then we probably do not need Slavery. If you get bogged down, or we start getting too many red faces, time to consider the civic change?

Hmm. Yes. One option is to draft heavily, then whip away the red faces. Result is big time army, trashed economy. The problem might be that the full effect might not be immediately felt and five turns down the track we're facing strikes. Anyone have more experience than me on this balancing act? The big problem I see in it is that we seriously do want to reach Assembly line in respectable time...

 

[Cactus Pete]

No Slavery until we get another GP. After that, leaning toward it.

Galley upgrades to galleons depends on real present need. Bear in mind that we'll be acquiring non-barracks cities in some number, probably be in Slavery at some point soon (end of a GA at the latest), and probably be able to whip (or build) galleons in numbers about time transport distances increase.

 

[leif erikson]

On Galleons, with this map, we may have to produce (whip) some in cities on the other sides of some legs if we cannot get passage through them, depends upon city locations and whether we can build forts as canals.

 

[-Asterix-]

There is a way to find out how many gold can be yielded by a GM trade . I am a bit skettchy since I have not done it in a long time.

1. You pause the game.
2. select the GM,
3. right or left click on the city tile intended for the trade trip.
4. It use to tell how much gold is the GM bring in. But I can not remember the details.
5. Oh yeah, cancel the GM movements before unpausing the game.

I'm doing this differently:

1. Select the GM.
2. Hold SHIFT and keep it down.
3. Give GM orders to move to destination city so that you see its path (right-click).
4. You should now see the trade route icon active and be able to hover mouse over it to see how much gold you get from the route.
5. Cancel all the actions.
6. Repeat steps 3-5 if needed.
7. Release SHIFT.

I think in vanilla you actually need to see the destination city tile for this to work (for example have some unit there), not sure if it's needed in BTS.

 

[Mad Professor]

I'm doing this differently:

1. Select the GM.
2. Hold SHIFT and keep it down.
3. Give GM orders to move to destination city so that you see its path (right-click).
4. You should now see the trade route icon active and be able to hover mouse over it to see how much gold you get from the route.
5. Cancel all the actions.
6. Repeat steps 3-5 if needed.
7. Release SHIFT.

I think in vanilla you actually need to see the destination city tile for this to work (for example have some unit there), not sure if it's needed in BTS.

Didn't work for me for me,for some reason. I'll move him towards Ulundi in any case and see what happens when I get there.

 

[-Asterix-]

Didn't work for me for me,for some reason. I'll move him towards Ulundi in any case and see what happens when I get there.

Just for comparison, did you try it also with a visible city?

 

[Htadus]

Didn't work for me for me,for some reason. I'll move him towards Ulundi in any case and see what happens when I get there.

I am remembering having to use key board commands with the mouse to do this. But never mind. If the trade is less than 1200 gold, by all means run a GA and build units the old fassion manner and forget waiting for another GP.

My advise for this game at this point is to launch a GA, build units with normal hammers for now, switch to PS at the begining and switch to Slavary and Theo or free religion at the end. Start whipping. It is better than waiting for another GP and then launching a GA.

Also get out of PS at the end and get into Vassalage.