SGOTM 14 - Xteam

Mad Professor · Nov 22, 2011

I'm in a position to play a few turns shortly - a few hours earlier than I anticipated.

Htadus - I'd be rather surprised if the trade route was less than 1200 gold, but I'll find out as soon as I can. I'm expecting to stop and consult in any case before the GM would be used up in a trade route - that wouldn't be for about six turns I think.

leif erikson · Nov 22, 2011

Mad Professor said:
I'm in a position to play a few turns shortly - a few hours earlier than I anticipated.

Good Luck and Happy Hunting MP. :hammer:

Backyard Haka, with a temp in the mid-40's F, raining, with a blazing fire for warmth.

Htadus · Nov 22, 2011

Mad Professor said:
I'm in a position to play a few turns shortly - a few hours earlier than I anticipated.

Htadus - I'd be rather surprised if the trade route was less than 1200 gold, but I'll find out as soon as I can. I'm expecting to stop and consult in any case before the GM would be used up in a trade route - that wouldn't be for about six turns I think.

Good hunting MP.

BTW, I said in error to leave PS at the end of a GA. What I intend to say is to leave nationalism. After a round of drafting , the effectivenes goes away and it is better to use slavary and get fast units.

Mad Professor · Nov 23, 2011

Wow These turns are taking a long time now! How are we going to finish before the deadline?
Ive played nearly five turns. Ayodhya is ours and Oslo (plus large Viking stack) has fallen. We are all over Bangalore. The Great Merchant has reached Ulundi the trade route is worth 1,500 gold. We can also trade for physics and I want opinions on that - do we want to do this trade?

Heres a few quick notes, and Ill also add the BUFFY log as well below. Ill put a copy of the interim save here as well.

T192 1320AD
Fleet at SF -> Ayodhya, land and capture worker
Other units at SF towards Oslo
Send units from near Bombay/Agra towards Bangalore

T193 1330AD
Bombard Ayodhya
March on Oslo big Viking stack now there
Asoka Caravel blocking the way to Bangalore, dont want to attack it at 68% with a loaded galleon the stakes are too high for losing units with galleon if we lose
Draft in NK its a musket huh? :confused:

I thought we were going to get grens? Wait another turn see if it becomes grens next turn after weve had Mil Sci for a turn

IBT
Indian caravel attacks fleet near Bangalore, loses

T194 1340AD
Land on horses near Bangalore
Bombard Oslo to 5%
Bombard Ayodhya to 0%
Attack Ayodhya with two trebs to soften defenders, lose one, win one
Attack six remaining units in Ayodhya all at 90+ % and win all six, Ayodhya is ours
Start on fort south of Ayodhya
Draft in York musket again? :confused:

I guess grens are not on the menu for drafting? :crazyeye:

Draft musket in Coventry also

T195 1350AD
Kill Indian mace near Ayodhya
Bombard Bangalore to 59% (canons would be nice!!)
Plunder Asokas horses
Bombard Oslo to zero
Lose two cats attacking big stack in Oslo
Lose three currasiers in 80-ish percent battles attacking Oslo grrrr! :mad:

Kill nine defenders in Oslo his stack doesnt look so pretty now

Use Great General to construct Military Academy in NK
Land more siege weapons near Bangalore
Kill Indian cat near Ujjain mace takes serious damage ouch :cry:

Cancel Incense to Mansa for 7gpt
Sell Wheat to Mansa for 12gpt
Cancel Silk to Shaka for 5gpt
Sell silk to Shaka for 10gpt
Cancel Crab to Gandhi for 5gpt
Sell Crab to Gandhi for 9gpt
Draft musket in NY
Draft musket in Nottingham

IBT
Sink 2 Indian caravels in defense, lose a galleon to Indian caravel near Bangalore

T196 1360AD
Raggie has reinforced Oslo
Sink Indian caravel near Bangalore with Frigate
Bombard Bangalore to 44%
Kill five remaining Viking units in Oslo all 90+ percent battles
Oslo auto-razes
Kill Viking crossbow near the ruins of Oslo
Advance units towards Ujjain
Some units stop to heal near Oslo ruins
Upgrade 2 CR3, Combat 1 maces in Ayodhya for 110 gold each
Gandhi and Monty now have Physics!

T197 1370AD
Now Mansa and Shaka also have Physics! :rolleyes:

War Weariness and emancipation unhappies really starting to hurt now :sad:

Shaka will give physics and 240 gold for Mil Trad and gunpowder Do we want to do this deal?
Great Merchant reaches Ulundi trade route is worth 1,500 gold :goodjob:

Sink Indian galley near Bangalore with Frigate
Plunder Clams near Hyderabad with Frigate
Bombard Bangalore to 30%
Sink Mongolian galley with privateer
Lots of units still to move this turn

Here's a copy of the interim save:
View attachment Dorothy AD-1370 consult.CivBeyondSwordSave

Mad Professor · Nov 23, 2011

Here's the BUFFY log so far:

Spoiler :

Edit: I could continue playing tomorrow morning my time (say 15 hours from now) if feedback is enough by then or if not, I could play again tomorrow evening, about 26 hours from now. We really need to keep moving - turns take a long time and we have ways to go in not many days!

The-Hawk · Nov 23, 2011

Mad Professor said:
Shaka will give physics and 240 gold for Mil Trad and gunpowder Do we want to do this deal?

Would be better if someone would trade Democracy or one of the techs on the path to Inf. However, we might as well get some value from our unique techs. Airships would be a nice addition to our arsenal.

leif erikson · Nov 23, 2011

Nice progress MP. :thumbsup:

I would make the trade. Montie and Gandhi have MT already and I think it is clear that the next battle is not going to be fought with what we have.

Wish there a way to get Shaka team fighting Montie team? They need to eat up some units...

May have to attack Mongols to gain enough Gold to get to Infantry?

Not sure our goal on GP's?
NK gains a citizen next turn. Think we should hire an Engineer to have some chance of a GE for a Golden Age? Hiring will gain a GP in about 13 turns, but the chances of a GS are high.

Another option is to change Harrapin to something else, Merchant?, in order to get two GP's of different occupations.

The-Hawk · Nov 23, 2011

leif erikson said:
Nice progress MP. Yep

I would make the trade. Montie and Gandhi have MT already and I think it is clear that the next battle is not going to be fought with what we have. Agreed. We can clean up GK with grens and cannon, but I think Inf are in our future.

Wish there a way to get Shaka team fighting Montie team? They need to eat up some units... This is a good idea. Probably impossible, but we should monitor for opportunities.

May have to attack Mongols to gain enough Gold to get to Infantry? Yes, he is next. As our English cities get into production mode, they can start building the GK army.

Not sure our goal on GP's?
NK gains a citizen next turn. Think we should hire an Engineer to have some chance of a GE for a Golden Age? Hiring will gain a GP in about 13 turns, but the chances of a GS are high.

Another option is to change Harrapin to something else, Merchant?, in order to get two GP's of different occupations.

GA's make the most sense to me, although another trade mission would be good if we get a GM.

leif erikson · Nov 23, 2011

The-Hawk said:
GA's make the most sense to me, although another trade mission would be good if we get a GM.

Best, near term GM possibility looks like Harrapin. We may need to farm over the flood plains cottage to get this done though? :crazyeye:

Cactus Pete · Nov 23, 2011

Checked save; looking good, MP; some thoughts:

Move mace out of Canterbury and make use of him

Once you have gold from trade route, upgrade multiple maces. That should pay off in defeating Rags sooner

We can get another GP in NK in five turns, if we abandon production there for those turns. Should be considered. Do we dare wait to see what kind of GP we get? If its not a GS, then we start a GA and trade for Physics. If a GS, we double-bulb Physics and perhaps get the rest of it for Gunpwder, leaving MS to trade for Communism (pie in the sky?).

Mad Professor · Nov 23, 2011

leif erikson said:
I would make the trade. Montie and Gandhi have MT already and I think it is clear that the next battle is not going to be fought with what we have.

I am inclined that way. Getting Physics though means we should do our best to avoid another scientist since Biology will be next on the Scientist bulb list since we have chemistry. Unless we're looking to use farms to build up our city sizes that way we probably don't need biology right? Scientists would therefore be of more use to us as part of a GA team.

leif erikson said:
Not sure our goal on GP's?
NK gains a citizen next turn. Think we should hire an Engineer to have some chance of a GE for a Golden Age? Hiring will gain a GP in about 13 turns, but the chances of a GS are high.

I had a list of scientists on in Harappan because tech pace frankly looked awful without it - I was trying to make some more progress towards the coveted Assembly line which is looking a long, long way off right now - our economy is struggling. I could change that list to merchants and we'd finish up with a good chance of a merchant for the next GP...

leif erikson said:
Wish there a way to get Shaka team fighting Montie team? They need to eat up some units...

The ultimate diplomatic coup at this stage would be to get those two teams to kill each other while we're finishing off Asoke, Raggie and Genghis, but I can't think of a way to do it. They are way too friendly with each other. I don't think there's any way to get them to attack each other.

Cactus Pete said:
Once you have gold from trade route, upgrade multiple maces. That should pay off in defeating Rags sooner

Yes - there's still some highly promoted maces that would make dangerous grens and we should use some of the trade route gold for that. I'd also like to save some to keep our tech going as well. Assembly line is a ways off yet - even steel is not very close at the current pace.

Cactus Pete said:
We can get another GP in NK in five turns, if we abandon production there for those turns. Should be considered. Do we dare wait to see what kind of GP we get? If its not a GS, then we start a GA and trade for Physics. If a GS, we double-bulb Physics and perhaps get the rest of it for Gunpwder, leaving MS to trade for Communism (pie in the sky?).

I hadn't thought of the GP in NK idea. That makes a hole in our unit production for a few turns, but in the grand scheme of things that might not be a problem.

I'm not sure about waiting five turns to trade for physics if that's what we want to do. Gunpowder has got to be high on the priority list for them to study next - if not that then Mil Trad - either way we lose bargaining power at about the rate they study those techs from now on I think. I'm surprised they have delayed the study of gunpowder this long - they went all the way to democracy first which most AI's won't do. What I'm saying I guess is that the risk in what you are suggesting is that we won't be able to pay for physics in five turns time even if we don't get a scientist as the next GP.

Communism would be nice to have if we could get it easily. I don't have the save open in front of me now so I'm not sure if Mil Sci would pay for it.

Mad Professor · Nov 23, 2011

The-Hawk said:
Would be better if someone would trade Democracy or one of the techs on the path to Inf. However, we might as well get some value from our unique techs. Airships would be a nice addition to our arsenal.

Haven't got the save in front of me now, but I could look at possibilities for you shortly. Democracy (and a switch to emancipation) would get us 3 or 4 happies is just about every city, several of which would benefit greatly from it.

I agree with you that getting some benefit from our unique techs is better than none, particularly if that benefit is the ability to build blimps which would actually be fairly useful from now until when somebody gets flight after which fighters shoot them out of the sky every time they show their noses away from home. If leif's comments about the possibility of needing artillery :sad:

are true, then physics also gets us closer to that.

A related question - how long is it good to keep drafting. I noticed that drafting not only produces 3 unhappies for the draft but also has a tendency to increase War weariness in that city - perhaps I'm imagining it, but I'm sure the last draft in New York resulted in 4 more unhappies, not three and I think the fourth one was an increase in war weariness, which may or may not have been a co-incidence. Does anyone know for sure?

Mad Professor · Nov 23, 2011

I just checked the tech trade possibilities.

We can't get democracy right now because Shaka and Mansa won't trade it, and Monty and Gandhi already have Mil Trad and Gunpowder is not enough to pay for Democracy.

Regarding Military Science and Communism, Military Science almost certainly will not be enough to pay for Communism. I can't check for certain since they don't have gunpowder and so therefore can't trade for Military Science. Mil Sci however is 3120 beakers while communism is 4300 and something I think. I don't think it will be enough to pay for it. We'd have to add another tech and gunpowder wouldn't be available by then because they'd have it already.

leif erikson · Nov 23, 2011

I've been a bonehead. :hammer2:

Just did a tech review and found that Montie/Gandhi and Mansa/Shaka do not yet have Chemistry because they need Gunpowder to get it. After getting Astro, they have gone SciMeth and then Physics. We have the advantage of Grens and Frigates on them now and giving them Gunpowder will allow them access to Chem. My guess is that they are heading for Rifles?

If we can find a way to get to Steel, Cannon will do a job with Grens unless they get to Rifles first, although even then we have a marginal advantage. Now think we should withhold Gunpowder?

For this, I think we should press for another Great Merchant and a trade route for cash?

edit -
If we're quick, and can attack Zulu quickly while we have an advantage, may be able to pick up Communism in a peace deal? :hmm:

Our distance maintenance is only 76, our number of cities maintenance is 113. Communism doesn't look that attractive atm. Wonder if we should build Forbidden Palace somewhere near the center of the map? But we still need a city to build it in? Arrrgh!
edit2 - FP perhaps in Nidaros or someplace near there (once we take it, of course...)

edit3 - Police State would also lessen WW by 50% and, as Htadus suggested, Vassalage would give +2 Exp and free unit support. Free Religion also provides +1 happy per religion in the city. However, civic maintenance cost goes way up as Vassalage and Police State are both high upkeep. :crazyeye:

Mad Professor · Nov 23, 2011

I will want to start playing again in about 9-10 hours from now.

I'm getting the idea that the trade for physics has some appeal, but there are good reasons why we might not do it? Perhaps we should not? If someone thinks I'm not reading this right make sure you say so. I'll check here before starting to play again, so I'll see the comments.

It looks like I should replace the stack of scientists in Harappan with a stack of merchants so that our chances of not getting a scientist are higher?

What about the idea of cutting production in NK to try getting another GP in five turns there? Suggested by CP, but no-one else has commented on it much.

Remember we have a scientist sitting around waiting. If the next GP is an engineer, we could use those two for a GA. If the next one is a merchant we'd have the choice of a GA or using the merchant for cash, and if the next one is a scientist, we would probably do a double bulb on physics and see if we could pick up the rest of physics in trade...? But we probably don't want a scientist if we can help it?

The Merchant currently in Ulundi will be used for cash, I will upgrade a couple more CR3 maces to grens, and maybe a couple of other highly promoted maces as well. I might also put the science slider up a bit to see if we can use the rest of the cash to get steel sooner rather than later. Comments?

Does anyone have any feelings either way on the aggressiveness of drafting from here? The unhappies are raging...

I'm thinking we are waiting for a GA to change civics - if I'm reading that wrong, please speak up.

Militarily, generally speaking we want Asoka to be history ASAP, and we rush onto Raggie's area.

Judging from yesterday's turns I'll probably only play about five or six turns before stopping - particularly if there's a clean spot to do it. Whoever is next on the play list needs to start warming up - we're in a hurry now.

leif erikson · Nov 23, 2011

Mad Professor said:
I'm getting the idea that the trade for physics has some appeal, but there are good reasons why we might not do it? Perhaps we should not? If someone thinks I'm not reading this right make sure you say so. I'll check here before starting to play again, so I'll see the comments.

Was all for the trade until I realized that the two top pairs do not yet have Chemistry, which means they aren't close to Grens. In addition, even if they get to Rifling, without Gunpowder, they aren't building Rifles either, are they? This seems to give us an advantage we should not pass up by trading them Gunpowder or, far that matter, MT.

Please tell me I am wrong. :please:

Mad Professor said:
It looks like I should replace the stack of scientists in Harappan with a stack of merchants so that our chances of not getting a scientist are higher?

What about the idea of cutting production in NK to try getting another GP in five turns there? Suggested by CP, but no-one else has commented on it much.

Remember we have a scientist sitting around waiting. If the next GP is an engineer, we could use those two for a GA. If the next one is a merchant we'd have the choice of a GA or using the merchant for cash, and if the next one is a scientist, we would probably do a double bulb on physics and see if we could pick up the rest of physics in trade...? But we probably don't want a scientist if we can help it?

I guess the question is what value do two Scientists have for us? If we see little value because a Golden Age is what we really need, then avoid a GS with all your ability. Think a GP in NK is more likely to be a GS?

Mad Professor said:
The Merchant currently in Ulundi will be used for cash, I will upgrade a couple more CR3 maces to grens, and maybe a couple of other highly promoted maces as well. I might also put the science slider up a bit to see if we can use the rest of the cash to get steel sooner rather than later. Comments?

Agree. Please have a look at tech rate for Steel and see how much we can get done at 100% before spending? Maces can be upgraded with city plunder, Steel is needed soon.

Mad Professor said:
Does anyone have any feelings either way on the aggressiveness of drafting from here? The unhappies are raging...

Draft as you have need. If we can maintain an advantage, we should exploit that as much as we can. :hammer:

Mad Professor said:
I'm thinking we are waiting for a GA to change civics - if I'm reading that wrong, please speak up.

Yes, that is what I think too. However, if that becomes too much, we have enough units to take down Asoka and put a dent in Rags, so a civic change might be better now. Again, what use of GP's do we have/need?

Mad Professor said:
Militarily, generally speaking we want Asoka to be history ASAP, and we rush onto Raggie's area.

Seems like that is the view from here.

My kids just got home from college and my sisters came home too. I'll try to get back in about 3 to 4 hours. Thanksgiving in the US tomorrow.
Let's hope we're giving thanks for the downfall of Asoka, Rags and Genghis... :lol:

Mad Professor · Nov 23, 2011

leif erikson said:
Agree. Please have a look at tech rate for Steel and see how much we can get done at 100% before spending? Maces can be upgraded with city plunder, Steel is needed soon.

There's a couple of CR3 maces that I certainly would want as grens I think. They're 110 gold each to upgrade. After that it will depend how close the gold gets us to Steel at 100%.

leif erikson said:
Yes, that is what I think too. However, if that becomes too much, we have enough units to take down Asoka and put a dent in Rags, so a civic change might be better now. Again, what use of GP's do we have/need?

The idea of a non-scientist for a GA (thereby efficiently using our existing Scientist currently doing nothing) is very appealing to me. It might be worth trying for one, and making the civic change once the GA is launched. Not sure how many turns that will be though - especially if we avoid getting the GP in NK to increase the chances of it being a non-scientist. Harappan would be our best chance of a non-scientist in the foreseeable future but that would be quite a few turns off.

leif erikson said:
My kids just got home from college and my sisters came home too. I'll try to get back in about 3 to 4 hours. Thanksgiving in the US tomorrow.
Let's hope we're giving thanks for the downfall of Asoka, Rags and Genghis...

Not all in the next five or six turns I don't think!

Htadus · Nov 23, 2011

Giving them Mil Trad will give them the incentive to get Gunpowder. We have been helping AI get advanced all through the game with our trades. This is a great strat for a Space Game. I am not sure I understand war games anymore.

AI almost always have Gunpowder before Rifle in my experience.

Cactus Pete · Nov 23, 2011

"I guess the question is what value do two Scientists have for us? If we see little value because a Golden Age is what we really need, then avoid a GS with all your ability. Think a GP in NK is more likely to be a GS?" Two scientists will let us bulb most of Physics, so it's not a disaster. Suggest that, if we don't make the trade (and not doing so is fine with me), getting another GP in 5 turns from NK is the way to go. (Harappan GP seems too many turns away.) We have enough units for the moment with upgrades (and I wouldn't be too restrained unless Steel soon is really a possibility).

Mad Professor · Nov 23, 2011

Htadus said:
AI almost always have Gunpowder before Rifle in my experience.

Me likewise. I would be absolutely gobsmacked to see the AI tech rifling without gunpowder. Can they even do it? I don't have the game in front of me now, but I have this idea in the back of my head that gunpowder is necessary for rifling?

Htadus said:
Giving them Mil Trad will give them the incentive to get Gunpowder. We have been helping AI get advanced all through the game with our trades. This is a great strat for a Space Game. I am not sure I understand war games anymore

In our case in this game we're not actually completing against the AI, but against the other teams, so advancing the AI in our game has potential (hopefully) to advance us further and hopefully increase the pace at which we finish the game and so give us a better chance of finishing ahead of the other teams. I think!

SGOTM 14 - Xteam

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