SGOTM 15 - Unusual Suspects

SteelHorse · Feb 19, 2012

High King J.J. said:
Just a random thought from a dead brain, what if the map has toroidal wrap? That's one thing I remember causing higher city distance maintenance costs. Somebody else know what other map things cause similar effects?

PPP looks = green to me.

Yup - I forgot that map type effects tile distances. It is almost certainly something like that.

EDIT: Update test save T60. implemented Xcals suggestion (except for southern fog bust - waiting to hear of barb galley Q. In the test I got 1g for fail gold on SH. Built Barracks instead of Axe in Bolly. Will depend during game on what the warrior sees in the north. If there are barbs headed our way, Axe, otherwise Barracks.

EDIT 2: Added T68 screen of Oracle and Writing completing. 3 Chops. Might be able to get with 2 chops.

ChrisShaffer · Feb 19, 2012

Sorry I haven't been online. Busy on vacation.

No matter what I have tried, I cannot get the email notifier to send me email. Is it broken for others too?

Xcalibrator · Feb 19, 2012

Using SH's tricks and 3 chops I also can get Writing and Oracle on T68. I have two extra mines, a lot more roads, and (in a version different from what I attach) an extra city founded a couple turns earlier. I have to run now but can write up the MM if there's interest.

ChrisShaffer · Feb 19, 2012

Green from me, btw.

SteelHorse · Feb 19, 2012

Xcalibrator said:
Using SH's tricks and 3 chops I also can get Writing and Oracle on T68. I have two extra mines, a lot more roads, and (in a version different from what I attach) an extra city founded a couple turns earlier. I have to run now but can write up the MM if there's interest.

The are a few differences in the first 10 moves. First, seem to be road paths, I roaded deer for future camping and settler movement, you went through the gold and south of the deer. I like the deer path better, but I assume the south route saves turn from not crossing river.

I left a warrior 1-turn short of completion in Delhi in case we needed quickly. And 1 warrior a few turns further north exploring. You have an Axe out - which i like.

I will play tonight in about 3 hours to move things along, I like getting the city out earlier. As long as the Settler going at T60 we should be fine. Yes - it looks like there should be enough gold to support an earlier city. I will blend the two approaches. We will end up somewhere in the middle and can take it from there.

Great work!

Xcalibrator · Feb 19, 2012

SteelHorse said:
The are a few differences in the first 10 moves. First, seem to be road paths, I roaded deer for future camping and settler movement, you went through the gold and south of the deer. I like the deer path better, but I assume the south route saves turn from not crossing river.

My original trials did go through the deer but when I saw the wisdom of doing what was most useful right now I switched to what you did. Edit: Saving those 2 worker turns lets the eastern workers road the copper and then get up the grass hill NW of Bolly and finish mining it in time for population expansion.

I left a warrior 1-turn short of completion in Delhi in case we needed quickly. And 1 warrior a few turns further north exploring. You have an Axe out - which i like.

Yeah, there's nothing like an axe (especially a 3XP axe) against barb warriors, or even archers if you don't attack them on defensive terrain. Could be very handy clearing out our northern settling site. And there's a bear up there somewhere, although he seems to die off pretty quickly in the test game.

Green light to play to Monotheism (or if something on your stop list occurs). BTW, I couldn't get Mono until T61--curious how you got T60. Don't forget about Stonehenge--failure gold is good.

Oh, and yes, you're right to use 3 warriors for southern fogbusting to cover the coasts, too. Once the gems city is founded we can have all three outside borders without extra maintenance. Since it's only 1 gpt we should be able to afford it for a couple turns.

SteelHorse · Feb 19, 2012

OK - Played 11 turns. Pretty much as planned except Judaism went early 1800bc.
Used Xcals road strategy.

So I backed off the gold a bit for hammers in the capital and got Mono on T61. Also mis-clicked one worker turn causing use to miss the trade route to Bombay by 1-turn. Besides for that according to plan. Got 5 for fail gold in Bombay on SH.

Will update plan to Oracle and post in a bit.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 2000 BC to 1560 BC:

Spoiler :

Buffy Log

Spoiler :

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm15/Unusual_Suspects_SG015_BC1560_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

Trystero · Feb 19, 2012

Looking good so far, SH. :goodjob:

Let's hope we can still get the Oracle.

This is also interesting:

Turn 60, 1600 BC: Tokugawa has no worst enemy.
Turn 60, 1600 BC: Hammuragawa has no worst enemy.

Hammuragawa is still WHEOOHRN, though.

Xcalibrator · Feb 19, 2012

Bummer about missing Judaism but there's nothing we could have done about it--presumably other teams will be in the same boat, right? Was hoping for stone-enhanced Stonehenge failure gold, but even those 5g may be handy. I'll update the test game, but probably not until tomorrow. I know you're probably anxious to keep going, SH,

but we need to get consensus on where to settle next, plus reoptimize the micro. I'm very relieved that you killed the barb without incident and that we still possess the corn thoughtfully farmed for us by Japan.

Good job!

Trystero · Feb 19, 2012

I gave a quick look at the real save. Another thing worth noting: Tokugawa is garrisoning spearmen in Osaka, so he must have copper.

Xcalibrator · Feb 19, 2012

SH, would it be possible for you to edit the BUFFY log to include the worker actions? I think I might have trouble reproducing things. But at least the research is exactly where predicted (well, 1 beaker difference, though that may be just luck).

SteelHorse · Feb 19, 2012

Here is an updated test file. It is pretty close. Even put the right units in Osaka.
Delhi isn't quite right on growth and hammers. The turn it flipped the corn must have been different in the test game. I have it working a grass hill to get close to the real game in turns to growth and barracks.
Barb played hide and go seek, eventually killed by Toku, but I did not turn Slavery off as a result.
Tuesday I am off on a business trip - so if we change direction, I will hand off. If we continue for Oracle, I can play tomorrow night. No worries either way.

EDIT: Take a look Xcal - all the worker moves have been replicated.

Xcalibrator · Feb 19, 2012

I updated SH's test game a little: fixed names of cities Drona (was Delhi) and Delhi (was Bombay), which I should have done long ago in my test game; fixed 1 missing and 1 extra forest.

Differences between test and real game:

Real game is one turn behind on the pigs pasture.
Real has 34 beakers toward PH, test has 30.
bpt and gpt are exactly correct! Real game has 6 gold in the bank, test has 5.
Bolly: Real has 25/100 settler hammers, test has 19/100.
Bolly: Real has 21/28 food, test has 25.
Drona: Real has 38/50 barracks hammers, test has 35.
Drona: Real has 12/26 food, test has 22.
Delhi: Real has 10/50 barracks, test has 13.

The south central warrior should move 1NW to cover one coastal tile that is not currently fogbusted. Bolly can grow in one turn and get to pop5 and gain a 1F4H mine--we might want to switch out of the settler for a turn and do that, but will have to test. We will have Priesthood in 2 turns and can then start the Oracle. We also need to decide where to settle next.

kcd_swede · Feb 20, 2012

SteelHorse said:
Good work Xcal - that looks pretty optimal. Post your micro if it is not too much work. I am testing now. Not sure why the distance maint on the second city is 1.87 in the real game v 1.66 in the test. Something in BUFFY? I wouldn't have thought so. The difference is just great enough to cause a 1 gpt diff.

Like Xcal said, the maint is based on total size of map. So if our maint is less on the test game than on the real game for the same tile distance, that means the real game is a smaller base map than what we built the test game on. Considering number of opponents, that means a lot of congestion. It also means civs won't be able to grow much and will be at each other's throats. Improves conditions for a dom/conq game, maybe.

kcd_swede · Feb 20, 2012

Xcalibrator said:
Bummer about missing Judaism but there's nothing we could have done about it--presumably other teams will be in the same boat, right? Was hoping for stone-enhanced Stonehenge failure gold, but even those 5g may be handy. I'll update the test game, but probably not until tomorrow. I know you're probably anxious to keep going, SH, but we need to get consensus on where to settle next, plus reoptimize the micro. I'm very relieved that you killed the barb without incident and that we still possess the corn thoughtfully farmed for us by Japan.

Good job!

Good job SH! :goodjob:

Not suprised at all about the Mono thing. In a way it might be good for us, having the AI found more religions is not all bad. We don't need to found them, just get them spread to us.

Switch to Org Rel as soon as we start building a building in a Hindu city... IOW if Hindu spreads to one of the cities building barrack, or we start building Oracle in Bolly.

I don't see why we need to stop here. We will not have another settler ready right away, so the settling position for the next city can wait at least that long (I like Deer/gold, btw). Not sure that further micro optimization is needed, either. I'd let Steelhorse make that call. So as far as I am concerned you are green from me. But listen to the acting captain (XCal), of course.

Strategy-wise the loss of Judaism doesn't change anything, it was a longshot. We still aim Oracle-Theo. If we lose that, we have a lot of rethinking to do.

Nice that our neighbors have no worst enemy. The WHEOOHRN is still troubling but that could go away now that we have metal units. So it will be a while before we get attacked, I think.

Xcalibrator · Feb 20, 2012

We do need to stop, though hopefully not for long since SH and I are pretty familiar with optimizing the micro for the next 8 turns. We will have a settler out a few (TBD) turns before the Oracle is done and a city can easily and presumably should be settled in this set. Although I'd like to block Hammy farther north, we get more certain and immediate benefit from settling nearer, with the deer and gold. So I think everyone agrees on that.

I favor siting SW of the gold so we can immediately mine and use it, even if it means growth stagnation. We won't have AH Hunting for awhile (to camp the deer) and we'll need a border pop to access it anyway. Another option, which SH used in his tests, is on the grass hill to the west, but then neither the gold nor deer are in the BFC and we can't use either one for a long time. There's also the hill S of the gold but it won't have the deer at all, it's not coastal, and it has a lot of mountains, etc.

I'll try to adjust tile usage as I test to make the city food and hammers match the real game.

kcd_swede · Feb 20, 2012

Xcalibrator said:
We do need to stop, though hopefully not for long since SH and I are pretty familiar with optimizing the micro for the next 8 turns. We will have a settler out a few (TBD) turns before the Oracle is done and a city can easily and presumably should be settled in this set. Although I'd like to block Hammy farther north, we get more certain and immediate benefit from settling nearer, with the deer and gold. So I think everyone agrees on that.

I favor siting SW of the gold so we can immediately mine and use it, even if it means growth stagnation. We won't have AH for awhile (to camp the deer) and we'll need a border pop to access it anyway. Another option, which SH used in his tests, is on the grass hill to the west, but then neither the gold nor deer are in the BFC and we can't use either one for a long time. There's also the hill S of the gold but it won't have the deer at all, it's not coastal, and it has a lot of mountains, etc.

I'll try to adjust tile usage as I test to make the city food and hammers match the real game.

OK... do what makes sense with the pause. We are not in any hurry.

I assume you mean that we won't have "hunting" for a while. I agree that 1SW from the gold looks best. However, if that fogged tile is seafood I would move to the hill 2S from the deer instead.

Your (et al) work with the test game is great! :goodjob:

Above and beyond the call of duty. :rockon:

SteelHorse · Feb 20, 2012

EDIT: Cross-post. If you are going to redo the test map, do you want the FW micro? And yes, 1E if the proposed location A looks good.

Yup - Judaism to another Civ may mean another AI switches out of Bud and creates more inter-AI ill-will. On the downside, we loose a religion.

Agreed on the OR flip when the time is right.

On the settler, here are some options.
In the north, A, B, or C. And in the south D, E, or F. Alternatively in the south we could put 3 cities on the southern coast instead of 2 if we wanted.

My view is to go north, in incremental fashion. So First A, then, then C until we run into Hammy. The gives us the best option for moving troops if he does DOW. That said, further north, blocks off more for us sooner. So much good land.

Xcalibrator · Feb 20, 2012

Oooh, right, check for seafood with our mighty axe. Otherwise, settle 1E of A. I like all SH's other sites and agree with first settling toward the north.

Redoing the test map is beyond me--I was just going to work tiles that move us toward matching the real game during the first couple turns (perhaps by adding a few super-food or-hammer tiles here and there). But it may not matter in the end--the most important city is, of course, Bolly.

Xcalibrator · Feb 20, 2012

We seem to be in a worse position than in our previous tests--I can barely get Writing done in time and Bolly has to work nonoptimal tiles, slowing growth, to finish the Oracle by T68 (unless we chop 4 forests). Or maybe I'm just doing something wrong--are you having better luck, SH? Here's another test save where I've WB'd in some tiles to put us back on track in terms of hammers and food.

SGOTM 15 - Unusual Suspects

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