ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
green. looks good to me.
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SGOTM 15 - Unusual Suspects
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
Looks good to me. Sorry about the Drona axe not being able to move this turn--thought I checked that. Should we think about revolting into Caste System at the same time as Bureau? Only if there's no immediate need for whipping, of course. But we could then run artists for a few turns to pop Osaka's and Pata's borders (and net the latter's seafood). I'd assume that we can revolt back to Slavery by the time Kyoto comes out of revolt so we can whip it if desired. We'll get Civil Service about the same time we capture Kyoto so we can decide during the post-capture pause.
If Hammy is going to send big stacks at us we should think about building some cats for a less passive defense in Vijay. Use your judgment on what to build. Likewise for Drona, of course--don't build a temple if we urgently need more units. Add some notes about mines for Holy Cow and Drona, and another cottage for Delhi. And citizen reassignments in Bolly and Pata: Switch 2 sci's to cottages, grow, then give corn to Pata and 2-whip a granary (which will probably finish the cat) when it gets to pop4 (or provide arguments for something else).
Other comments? We need to hear from at least 2 more people before giving a Green light. Trys, will you have time to play tonight?
If Hammy is going to send big stacks at us we should think about building some cats for a less passive defense in Vijay. Use your judgment on what to build. Likewise for Drona, of course--don't build a temple if we urgently need more units. Add some notes about mines for Holy Cow and Drona, and another cottage for Delhi. And citizen reassignments in Bolly and Pata: Switch 2 sci's to cottages, grow, then give corn to Pata and 2-whip a granary (which will probably finish the cat) when it gets to pop4 (or provide arguments for something else).
Other comments? We need to hear from at least 2 more people before giving a Green light. Trys, will you have time to play tonight?
AAA
Warlord
Green from me.
Looks like a good plan.
Lets hope the Toku does something stupid - which he often does
Looks like a good plan.
Lets hope the Toku does something stupid - which he often does
Trystero
Deity
Trys, will you have time to play tonight?
Yep.
I will incorporate the worker plans you mentioned. I had some notes on building the granary in Pata, but forgot to incude them. I definitely agree with growing there and whipping the granary into the cat, rather than slow building the cat (or whipping the cat into the granary).
High King J.J.
Prince
I'm green, in a vague sort of way, meaning that I'm mainly just confident in our collective expertise in warfare, not that I contribute much into the cumulative skill pool.
Take Toku to his knees, take his techs, and then cut his knees from under him. Then rinse, repeat and do the same to Sledge Hammeragawa, if we still feel like warring. Maybe leave Hammy alive but weak to act as a buffer zone between us and Shakagawa or whoever lives beyond Hammy.
BTW, aren't cats good at catching rats and mice that would otherwise eat our grain from the granaries? But animal rights people would ban Civ4 if word got out about us whipping cats or other domesticated animals.
Ok, maybe I need to
, even if it is for the weak...
Take Toku to his knees, take his techs, and then cut his knees from under him. Then rinse, repeat and do the same to Sledge Hammeragawa, if we still feel like warring. Maybe leave Hammy alive but weak to act as a buffer zone between us and Shakagawa or whoever lives beyond Hammy.
BTW, aren't cats good at catching rats and mice that would otherwise eat our grain from the granaries? But animal rights people would ban Civ4 if word got out about us whipping cats or other domesticated animals.
Ok, maybe I need to
, even if it is for the weak...
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
DH was happy with an earlier version of the PPP, and kcd said he was on vacation and we shouldn't wait on his account. That leaves SH to yell stop before Trys plays, but currently we have a strong quorum for a Green light. Let the fun continue, and good luck! (And remember to really soften up the defenders with cats before using the axes. Stick to defensive ground on the approach. Don't take Kyoto unless we can hold it; if he wants to send more units to be slaughtered, fine. Pillage roads as you go to prevent him from threatening Osaka, and pillage mines and other easily restored improvements for gold if it won't expose our units to attack, blah blah blah...)
(And remember to really soften up the defenders with cats before using the axes. Stick to defensive ground on the approach. Don't take Kyoto unless we can hold it; if he wants to send more units to be slaughtered, fine. Pillage roads as you go to prevent him from threatening Osaka, and pillage mines and other easily restored improvements for gold if it won't expose our units to attack, blah blah blah...)
But animal rights people would ban Civ4 if word got out about us whipping cats or other domesticated animals.
Ok, maybe I need to
We'll have to add a disclaimer to the PPP: No cats or other animals were actually harmed in the production of these units.
Then we're green to go.
Trystero
Deity
Gentlemen: Hammy's stack has been dispatched, Vijay is secure, and Kyoto is ours. And we are one turn from CS.
I am pausing here as we agreed, since we need to discuss how to proceed.
The events as they unfolded:
Turn 121: Moved research slider to 100%, switched research to CoL. Switched 2 scientists in Bollywood to work cottages. 2 pop whip an axe in Vijay, overflow into a spear. Moved wounded Woody2 axe to forest S of Osaka, wounded Shock axe to forest SW of Osaka.
IBT: Toku’s axe attacks the Shock axe, and we survive! Taoism founded in a distant land. The Hanging Gardens built in a far away land (Buddhist holy city). Hinduism spreads to Pataliputra!
Turn 122: Move stack into Osaka. Move a Woody2 axe SW of Osaka to reinforce the Shock axe. Archer finished in Bombay moves toward Vijay. Axe from Holy Cow moves toward Osaka. Axe from Bollywood moves toward Vijay. Workers in Drona finish cottage, and move to mine grass hill.
IBT: Toku’s sword attacks our Woody2 axe SW of Osaka and wins. Shock axe keeps it from moving onto the tile. Dai Miao BIAFAL.
Turn 123: Shock axe kills Toku’s wounded sword. Finish archer in Bollywood, moves toward Vijay, start another archer. Axe finished in Delhi, moves toward Vijay, start settler.
IBT: Farm destroyed by a spy (sorry, I didn't notice which farm, exactly). Toku adopts HR.
Turn 124: Archer finished in Bollywood, moves to Pata, start cat. Archer finished in Drona, start Hindu temple. Axe done in Holy Cow, moves to Osaka, start cat.
Hammy’s stack NW of Vijay is 3 swords, 3 axes, and 1 spear.
IBT: MoM BIAFAL
Turn 125: Finished CoL, started Meditation. Hammy’s stack NW of Vijay moves to the N tile. Another sword, axe, and spear move to the NW tile. I decide to 2 pop whip an archer in Vijay. (Our current defenders are 5 axes and 3 archers. I am erring on the side of caution). Osaka is pacified, and I switched the build from an archer to a cat.
IBT: Hammy’s forces attack Vijay. We lose an axe and an archer, and kill 2 swords, 2 axes, and a spear. Another axe and archer have arrived from the south, and no other Babylonian forces are approaching. We should hold for now.
Turn 126: The Colossus BIAFAL, We meet Elizagawa, who is the runaway score leader (London is the Buddhist holy city, and has too many wonders to list).
Our units will go on strike next turn (-4 gpt at 0% research)
Our stack can see Kyoto: 1 sword, 2 axes, 2 spears, 1 archer. It has walls, is on a hill, and we have to cross a river.
Turn 127: Hammy’s remaining forces attack Vijay and we hold without loses. We are in strike. I switch tiles to maximize gold produced and get us up to 0 gpt. I switch builds to prevent us from building more units. I pillage a mine near Kyoto, and send other forces to pillage nearby tiles next turn. We begin bombarding Kyoto. We finish a cat in Bollywood and send it to Vijay. I start a Colosseum in Bollywood.
Turn 128: Pillaging nets us 36 gold, and we are at +2 gpt. I sell Elizagawa one of our deer resources for 7 gpt. Bring the slider up to 30% to finish Meditation next turn. Bombard Kyoto down to 40% defenses.
IBT: A sword and spear come out of Kyoto to attack our pillaging archer. The sword is reduced to 2.9 hp.
Turn 129: We finish Meditation, and bulb the GPro into CS. One more turn to save cash and we can finish CS 3 turns after that. We kill the sword and spear who came out of Kyoto. Our archer did not die in vain. (Thanks Toku!) Holy Cow can finish the cat next turn, so I switch the build to a Christian temple as a place holder. No signs of cats or more units coming from Hammy. Reduce Kyoto to 10% defense
Turn 130: Lots fighting. I think we lost 4 cats and 1 axe. We also gained a GG. Toku will sue for peace (I think we should be able to get IW in some deal)
Tech situation:
International relations:
Top 5 cities/wonders (and, again... Elizagawa... yikes)
Demographics:
I have uploaded the save for you all to look at. Logs in the next post.
I am pausing here as we agreed, since we need to discuss how to proceed.
The events as they unfolded:
Turn 121: Moved research slider to 100%, switched research to CoL. Switched 2 scientists in Bollywood to work cottages. 2 pop whip an axe in Vijay, overflow into a spear. Moved wounded Woody2 axe to forest S of Osaka, wounded Shock axe to forest SW of Osaka.
IBT: Toku’s axe attacks the Shock axe, and we survive! Taoism founded in a distant land. The Hanging Gardens built in a far away land (Buddhist holy city). Hinduism spreads to Pataliputra!
Turn 122: Move stack into Osaka. Move a Woody2 axe SW of Osaka to reinforce the Shock axe. Archer finished in Bombay moves toward Vijay. Axe from Holy Cow moves toward Osaka. Axe from Bollywood moves toward Vijay. Workers in Drona finish cottage, and move to mine grass hill.
IBT: Toku’s sword attacks our Woody2 axe SW of Osaka and wins. Shock axe keeps it from moving onto the tile. Dai Miao BIAFAL.
Turn 123: Shock axe kills Toku’s wounded sword. Finish archer in Bollywood, moves toward Vijay, start another archer. Axe finished in Delhi, moves toward Vijay, start settler.
IBT: Farm destroyed by a spy (sorry, I didn't notice which farm, exactly). Toku adopts HR.
Turn 124: Archer finished in Bollywood, moves to Pata, start cat. Archer finished in Drona, start Hindu temple. Axe done in Holy Cow, moves to Osaka, start cat.
Hammy’s stack NW of Vijay is 3 swords, 3 axes, and 1 spear.
IBT: MoM BIAFAL
Turn 125: Finished CoL, started Meditation. Hammy’s stack NW of Vijay moves to the N tile. Another sword, axe, and spear move to the NW tile. I decide to 2 pop whip an archer in Vijay. (Our current defenders are 5 axes and 3 archers. I am erring on the side of caution). Osaka is pacified, and I switched the build from an archer to a cat.
IBT: Hammy’s forces attack Vijay. We lose an axe and an archer, and kill 2 swords, 2 axes, and a spear. Another axe and archer have arrived from the south, and no other Babylonian forces are approaching. We should hold for now.
Turn 126: The Colossus BIAFAL, We meet Elizagawa, who is the runaway score leader (London is the Buddhist holy city, and has too many wonders to list).
Spoiler :
Our units will go on strike next turn (-4 gpt at 0% research)
Our stack can see Kyoto: 1 sword, 2 axes, 2 spears, 1 archer. It has walls, is on a hill, and we have to cross a river.
Spoiler :
Turn 127: Hammy’s remaining forces attack Vijay and we hold without loses. We are in strike. I switch tiles to maximize gold produced and get us up to 0 gpt. I switch builds to prevent us from building more units. I pillage a mine near Kyoto, and send other forces to pillage nearby tiles next turn. We begin bombarding Kyoto. We finish a cat in Bollywood and send it to Vijay. I start a Colosseum in Bollywood.
Turn 128: Pillaging nets us 36 gold, and we are at +2 gpt. I sell Elizagawa one of our deer resources for 7 gpt. Bring the slider up to 30% to finish Meditation next turn. Bombard Kyoto down to 40% defenses.
IBT: A sword and spear come out of Kyoto to attack our pillaging archer. The sword is reduced to 2.9 hp.
Turn 129: We finish Meditation, and bulb the GPro into CS. One more turn to save cash and we can finish CS 3 turns after that. We kill the sword and spear who came out of Kyoto. Our archer did not die in vain. (Thanks Toku!) Holy Cow can finish the cat next turn, so I switch the build to a Christian temple as a place holder. No signs of cats or more units coming from Hammy. Reduce Kyoto to 10% defense
Turn 130: Lots fighting. I think we lost 4 cats and 1 axe. We also gained a GG. Toku will sue for peace (I think we should be able to get IW in some deal)
Spoiler :
Tech situation:
Spoiler :
International relations:
Spoiler :
Top 5 cities/wonders (and, again... Elizagawa... yikes)
Spoiler :
Demographics:
Spoiler :
I have uploaded the save for you all to look at. Logs in the next post.
Trystero
Deity
Upload log (part 1):
Spoiler :
Trystero
Deity
Upload log, part 2:
Spoiler :
Trystero
Deity
Autolog:
I have a lot I want to say, but I am really After we finish CS and switch to Bureaucracy (and Caste System?), we can switch back to 0% research and reassign the tiles back to production focus. I switched the builds from units to buildings when we were in strike, but we should be close to finishing a number of units now that we can pay for them. We can't see much on the other side of Kyoto, so we'll need to scout for other cities.
Goodnight all.
Edit: I forgot pictures of Kyoto:
Spoiler :
I have a lot I want to say, but I am really
After we finish CS and switch to Bureaucracy (and Caste System?), we can switch back to 0% research and reassign the tiles back to production focus. I switched the builds from units to buildings when we were in strike, but we should be close to finishing a number of units now that we can pay for them. We can't see much on the other side of Kyoto, so we'll need to scout for other cities.Goodnight all.
Edit: I forgot pictures of Kyoto:
Spoiler :
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
Great job. Elizagawa scares me.
I think we should switch back into full culture victory mode, using Vijay and Kyoto as our defensive barriers. We should take that Japanese city that is still on our side of the mountains (Kagoshima?) and end our wars.
I think we should switch back into full culture victory mode, using Vijay and Kyoto as our defensive barriers. We should take that Japanese city that is still on our side of the mountains (Kagoshima?) and end our wars.
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
Excellent! 
Kyoto has some nice land, there. I don't understand why Toku only shows as having IW available for peace when he has 3 other techs (only one of which is "can't trade" presumably because of no tech brokering). In any case, we should use spies to steal techs from him, presumably from Kago but we'll have to check the costs for each city. Or maybe we want to just wipe him out now. Civil Service will be nice to have. Maybe revolt to CS/Caste and run artists for border pops and then switch to Slavery when Kyoto comes out of revolt?? My parents are arriving today for a several-day visit so I may not be able to check the save for awhile. Lots to think about, particularly after meeting Liz, and we need to get serious about pursuing a victory condition. Going into culture-turtle mode might be good, as Chris suggests. I'd like to hear a plan for a Religious victory so we can assess whether or not it's feasible--SH and kcd (with his recent HOF religious win) may have some ideas. We need to spread Hinduism to all AIs, and get at least one of them to vote for us, putting us over 75% while having less than 75% ourselves. I don't think it's necessary for any of them to actually convert to Hinduism, so maybe it's possible? We're very anxious to hear the whole lot of what you have to say, Trys, so I hope you got a good night's sleep.
Kyoto has some nice land, there. I don't understand why Toku only shows as having IW available for peace when he has 3 other techs (only one of which is "can't trade" presumably because of no tech brokering). In any case, we should use spies to steal techs from him, presumably from Kago but we'll have to check the costs for each city. Or maybe we want to just wipe him out now. Civil Service will be nice to have. Maybe revolt to CS/Caste and run artists for border pops and then switch to Slavery when Kyoto comes out of revolt?? My parents are arriving today for a several-day visit so I may not be able to check the save for awhile. Lots to think about, particularly after meeting Liz, and we need to get serious about pursuing a victory condition. Going into culture-turtle mode might be good, as Chris suggests. I'd like to hear a plan for a Religious victory so we can assess whether or not it's feasible--SH and kcd (with his recent HOF religious win) may have some ideas. We need to spread Hinduism to all AIs, and get at least one of them to vote for us, putting us over 75% while having less than 75% ourselves. I don't think it's necessary for any of them to actually convert to Hinduism, so maybe it's possible? We're very anxious to hear the whole lot of what you have to say, Trys, so I hope you got a good night's sleep.
Trystero
Deity
Excellent!
Just a quick response (for now): To clarify, Toku is offering Alpha, HBR, and Sailing for peace in the current deal, while IW is also available as an option. I don't think he can offer Monarchy because of No Tech Brokering, as you've noted.
OK, back to work.
Edit: More to chew on: If we self-researched Sailing, we might get Compass from him. I'd really like to know where iron is. We know Toku has some somewhere. It should be ours.
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
Oh. Duh, didn't notice the bottom of the screen.
More to think about. We play in fascinating times.
How fast can we do a culture VC without Sistines, without Parthenon, without Taj, without Music free GA?
Fast enough to beat elizagawa to space? Maybe. But recall we will not be able to turn off research or else we will get annihiliated when oil units arrive.
This is some scary stuff, alright.
Domino theory domination, perhaps would be surer/faster.
Religion is still technically possible. We just have to get one friendly and then use tricks to spread to all AI. Never tech Mass Media and the AP can operate forever.
How to get a friendly toku? Mercantilism. Convert him to Hindu as peace traety condition, or give him back enough infected cities and do the religion switch by espionage. Then try to rbibe him into war with his closest neighbor. The usual gifts and tributes. It seems like a long arduous task, and a lot of doubt is left to the AI fickleness.
We are #5 in land. We cannot feel secure in a victory here until we are number one there, imo.
Tough spot... but every other team has to figure something out too.
BTW: That was great execution, Trystero!
The more we learn, the less certain I am about what VC we should be aiming at. I think domination/conquest is the default if there is no compelling reason to believe we can do something else faster. I'm almost beginning to believe that a spaceship would be as fast as anything else.
Fast enough to beat elizagawa to space? Maybe. But recall we will not be able to turn off research or else we will get annihiliated when oil units arrive.
This is some scary stuff, alright.
Domino theory domination, perhaps would be surer/faster.
Religion is still technically possible. We just have to get one friendly and then use tricks to spread to all AI. Never tech Mass Media and the AP can operate forever.
How to get a friendly toku? Mercantilism. Convert him to Hindu as peace traety condition, or give him back enough infected cities and do the religion switch by espionage. Then try to rbibe him into war with his closest neighbor. The usual gifts and tributes. It seems like a long arduous task, and a lot of doubt is left to the AI fickleness.
We are #5 in land. We cannot feel secure in a victory here until we are number one there, imo.
Tough spot... but every other team has to figure something out too.
BTW: That was great execution, Trystero!
The more we learn, the less certain I am about what VC we should be aiming at. I think domination/conquest is the default if there is no compelling reason to believe we can do something else faster. I'm almost beginning to believe that a spaceship would be as fast as anything else.
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
The problem with converting somebody to Hinduism in order to make them Friendly enough to vote for us is that we'd then have a victory-vote opponent, and he'd vote for himself. We'd then have to get somebody else to Friendly, so we're back where we started. Yeah, it's gonna be hard to beat a Domination-win date, but I think we can say with very high confidence that some other team will win Domination before we can. I have no idea what to do at the moment.
Yeah, it's gonna be hard to beat a Domination-win date, but I think we can say with very high confidence that some other team will win Domination before we can. I have no idea what to do at the moment.
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
We should take Kagoshima and leave Tokugawa with Satsuma, which is close enough for us to send spies and steal techs if desired.
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
Some random comments: Shaka has been infected with Hinduism. 1 down, 9 to go. I know some builds and tile assignments are preliminary but there's a lot to change. A couple that caught my eye were Vijay could build a settler or worker to stop growth (or we should run specs under Caste) and Bombay could work a mine to finish the granary faster and start storing up food. The FWs should move farther west to build a cottage for Delhi. We can see England's cultural borders across the Channel to our NE. On espionage, we can only "see" Kago so I can't compare tech-stealing costs vs Toku's other cities. We have lots of units remaining (though some more cats will be in order if we continue against Toku) and run a comfortable excess of gold at 0% research, which will only get better once we get our units into our borders and switch to Bureau.
I know some builds and tile assignments are preliminary but there's a lot to change. A couple that caught my eye were Vijay could build a settler or worker to stop growth (or we should run specs under Caste) and Bombay could work a mine to finish the granary faster and start storing up food. The FWs should move farther west to build a cottage for Delhi. We can see England's cultural borders across the Channel to our NE. On espionage, we can only "see" Kago so I can't compare tech-stealing costs vs Toku's other cities. We have lots of units remaining (though some more cats will be in order if we continue against Toku) and run a comfortable excess of gold at 0% research, which will only get better once we get our units into our borders and switch to Bureau.
SteelHorse
Deity
Great job Trystero
On the road this week. Will take a close look this weekend.
Great to hear Shaka has been infected. Would be good if we are going to let Toku survive to infect him as well. Is there a spot available east off the mountains to plop a city down, infect and gift? Long term even try to convert. And use the AP powers to turn the gawas on each other. If Shaka has been infected, should there be a vote up soon to declare war on the infidels? I forget how it works, but Global Armegedon sounds good!
On the road this week. Will take a close look this weekend.
Great to hear Shaka has been infected. Would be good if we are going to let Toku survive to infect him as well. Is there a spot available east off the mountains to plop a city down, infect and gift? Long term even try to convert. And use the AP powers to turn the gawas on each other. If Shaka has been infected, should there be a vote up soon to declare war on the infidels? I forget how it works, but Global Armegedon sounds good!
