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SGOTM 15 - Unusual Suspects

No, no, you're doing fine! I wouldn't dream of taking away your opportunity to play more! [size=-2]Please play more. I am afraid.[/size]

:lol:

OK. Thanks. I don't feel so alone now.

I will redirect our EP back to Hatty to help, and/or give us a chance to steal techs.

We can steal Economics from Liz (93% chance of success). Should I do that? (Edit: We could gift it to Shaka I suppose, to help get a DoW on Cyrus) We could also steal Calendar.

Given that Hatty is at war with Cyrus who is (or used to be) a FT, do I still gift her DR?
 
kcd should have the final word, but I'd say do not steal Economics, and certainly don't give it away--the AI can then run Free Market, which we don't want. (Although I guess with No Tech Brokering we couldn't give it away. Still, we do not want to run Free Market, so I don't see much value for us.) Calendar would be handy for our bananas, but it might be better to hold out for something bigger that would give us more of a military edge.

Speaking of stealing techs, does Hatty actually have anything we want? If not, better to keep EPs on Liz.

Is the Hatty/Cyrus war new? Maybe hold off on the DR gift until we know who we're going to be DoWing (which depends on how DC turns out). kcd was talking about DoWing Cyrus under some circumstances.
 
:lol:

OK. Thanks. I don't feel so alone now.

I will redirect our EP back to Hatty to help, and/or give us a chance to steal techs.

We can steal Economics from Liz (93% chance of success). Should I do that? (Edit: We could gift it to Shaka I suppose, to help get a DoW on Cyrus) We could also steal Calendar.

Given that Hatty is at war with Cyrus who is (or used to be) a FT, do I still gift her DR?

We can only trade/gift the techs we do ourselves; no tech brokering. Stolen techs can't be traded.

When we get to that point, if we decide we want/need to DOW, a couple turns of EP on Shaka will tell us what he is researching, and we pick something else on his "can research" list to fast-tech and bribe with.

There are some things which I believe (though since I am unsure maybe its just superstition) reduce your chance of spies getting caught. High EP rate will do it, preferably on the civ where the spy is passing through; you also want to make sure you do not end the spy movement on top of an enemy military unit. Also, the AI tend to station spies on their strat resources, so you shouldn't stop on one of those, either.

I know... a little late with the advice, but I was afraid you might laugh at my superstitions. Actually, I do it automatically myself, and didn't think to mention it until I saw we were having trouble. My bad. Or my superstitious paranoia... take your pick. :lol:

Just give it a whorl... its a longshot to solve all our problems with a shortcut... we don't actually expect it to succeed.:mischief:

And time is not so tight that Trys shouldn't take the set. This is the last thing we do that might require some finesse. Everything else is just clicking our way to victory and should go pretty quick.:mischief::lol:

You can still gift DR because we are still Hatty's worst enemy, even though we enjoy open borders with her and she is at war with Cyrus. :crazyeye:

There are no other worst enemies, so we can trade with everyone. The only thing giving her DR will do is get us off the WE list, which isn't an issue now, but could become one later, though I doubt it. But its not like she can use it for anything, so why not?
 
kcd should have the final word, but I'd say do not steal Economics, and certainly don't give it away--the AI can then run Free Market, which we don't want. (Although I guess with No Tech Brokering we couldn't give it away. Still, we do not want to run Free Market, so I don't see much value for us.) Calendar would be handy for our bananas, but it might be better to hold out for something bigger that would give us more of a military edge.

Speaking of stealing techs, does Hatty actually have anything we want? If not, better to keep EPs on Liz.

Is the Hatty/Cyrus war new? Maybe hold off on the DR gift until we know who we're going to be DoWing (which depends on how DC turns out). kcd was talking about DoWing Cyrus under some circumstances.

Hatty was research Sci Meth and had 6 turns to go. She'll have that in 2t unless the war slowed her down. We want that cheap, if we end up on a radio path.
 
Looked at the save. I'm not optimistic about DC--only going to have 2+1 spies in time. Really needed more.

Liz is offering a DP. I assume we want? Several AIs have resources for trade--do we get diplo benefits if we pay for them? (I've always assumed a trade either way is a trade, or does it only help if we are providing the resource?)

Hatty's big stack (19 knights, 6 WE, 8 mace, 5 trebs, 14 other) is 1W of Vijay's wheat. Heading east? If we have to fight her we're going to need a lot more and/or a lot more high-quality units quickly. Since we're in no danger of anyone DoWing us (I assume?), maybe start shifting units toward our middle so we can send them where needed, e.g., we have a CR3 gren in Babylon, our supermedic in Dur-K, etc. Dur-K, Bombay, and Babylon all have 2 settled GGs; they should probably be building units (although Babylon might build a WB first for its fish).

Do some MM checks on all cities. Vara Calcutta has grown past its happy cap but is working commerce-less farms (or was the latter Vara?); have its workers build some workshops and build units for HR happiness and then wealth; or run specs or something. Agra should work its mines and finish its mona 13 turns sooner. We only have 2 Hmiss's right now, but are allowed three. If not sure where to build it, start it in one city but don't complete, then start it in another city, repeat... That way we'll be able to pump some out quickly whenever/wherever needed. (You might need to remove it from the queue--if so, use Alt-S to mark which cities have partial missionaries.) With its multiplier buildings, I'd switch Bolly's FP farm to a town.

Canterbury is Liz's cheapest city for espi. Lahore and Tokyo for Hatty.

Osaka should crank out spies (or military units); the former could bring down city defenses if we DoW her.

5 turns to Lib'ism at 0% but much quicker if we can raise the slider. I'd assume it's better to give the AI the capability to run Free Religion ASAP (other demands permitting).

Good luck! Fingers crossed for DC!
 
OK - The forest was farmed the turn I was going to found DC. :( (Also the game crashed twice on me while I was alt-tabbing to check instructions - I've not had this happen before. I contacted Alan about this since I had to reload from my autosave twice)

What to do now?

Here is what's happened so far.

Turn 214: Signed Defensive Pact with Liz. Switched EP back to Hatty. Gift DR to Hatty. Relations improve from Annoyed to Cautious. MM does not want our extra sheep.

City micro: Calcutta FW replace a farm with workshop. Osaka and Drona start Grenadiers.

Drop espi slider to 30%, raise research to 50%. Finish Liberalism next turn.

IBT: Versailles BIAFAL. Hatty has no WE.

Turn 215: Liberalism done, resume Calendar. Research slider to 0%, espi slider to 50%. Gift Liberalism to Hatty and extra clam to Liz. Ask Genghis for his extra rice, and he refuses. No map trades available. Spy from Kyoto moves to Tokyo. Start building grenadiers in various places.

Turn 216: Forest 1W of DC site farmed by Hatty. Steal Replaceable Parts from Liz.

I have uploaded the current save.

Here is the upload log:

Spoiler :
Here is your Session Turn Log from 1520 AD to 1530 AD:

Turn 214, 1520 AD: Bollywood can hurry Grenadier for 1⇴ with 36ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 214, 1520 AD: Bombay has grown to size 10.
Turn 214, 1520 AD: Vijayanagara has grown to size 14.
Turn 214, 1520 AD: Vijayanagara has become unhealthy.
Turn 214, 1520 AD: Vijayanagara has become unhappy.
Turn 214, 1520 AD: Kyoto can hurry Spy for 1⇴ with 32ℤ overflow, 21ℴ added to the treasury, and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 214, 1520 AD: Babylon has grown to size 7.
Turn 214, 1520 AD: Babylon can hurry Spy for 1⇴ with 26ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 214, 1520 AD: Agra has grown to size 5.
Turn 214, 1520 AD: Hatsegawa has 140 gold available for trade.
Turn 214, 1520 AD: Cyrusgawa has 150 gold available for trade.
Turn 214, 1520 AD: Holy Cow will grow to size 11 on the next turn.
Turn 214, 1520 AD: Hatsegawa has 140 gold available for trade.
Turn 214, 1520 AD: Mansagawa has 260 gold available for trade.
Turn 214, 1520 AD: Huayanagawa has 200 gold available for trade.
Turn 214, 1520 AD: Cyrusgawa has 150 gold available for trade.
Turn 214, 1520 AD: Elizagawa has 500 gold available for trade.
Turn 214, 1520 AD: Mansagawa has 11 gold per turn available for trade.
Turn 214, 1520 AD: You are the worst enemy of Hatsegawa.
Turn 214, 1520 AD: Cyrusgawa will trade Aesthetics, Calendar, Scientific Method
Turn 214, 1520 AD: Elizagawa will trade Aesthetics, Liberalism, Replaceable Parts, Scientific Method
Turn 214, 1520 AD: Shakagawa will trade Calendar, Nationalism, Scientific Method
Turn 214, 1520 AD: Genghigawa will trade Calendar, Nationalism, Scientific Method
Turn 214, 1520 AD: Huayanagawa will trade Incense, Rice
Turn 214, 1520 AD: Cyrusgawa will trade Spices
Turn 214, 1520 AD: Elizagawa will trade Rice, Silver
Turn 214, 1520 AD: Genghigawa will trade Rice
Turn 214, 1520 AD: Will Sign a Defensive Pact: Elizagawa
Turn 214, 1520 AD: Holy Cow will grow to size 11 on the next turn.
Turn 214, 1520 AD: Gandhi signs defensive pact with Elizagawa
Turn 214, 1520 AD: You have discovered Liberalism!
Turn 214, 1520 AD: You have trained a Spy in Kyoto. Work has now begun on a Trebuchet.
Turn 214, 1520 AD: Versailles has been built in a far away land!
Turn 214, 1520 AD: Shakagawa adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 215, 1525 AD: Drona can hurry Grenadier for 2⇴ with 31ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 215, 1525 AD: Bombay can hurry Grenadier for 2⇴ with 38ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 215, 1525 AD: Holy Cow has grown to size 11.
Turn 215, 1525 AD: Osaka can hurry Grenadier for 3⇴ with 36ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 215, 1525 AD: Hatsegawa has 220 gold available for trade.
Turn 215, 1525 AD: Shakagawa has 270 gold available for trade.
Turn 215, 1525 AD: Shakagawa has 8 gold per turn available for trade.
Turn 215, 1525 AD: Hatsegawa has no worst enemy.
Turn 215, 1525 AD: The borders of Dur-Kurigalzu are about to expand.
Turn 215, 1525 AD: Huayanagawa won't trade Incense, Rice
Turn 215, 1525 AD: Kyoto will grow to size 17 on the next turn.
Turn 215, 1525 AD: Babylon will grow to size 8 on the next turn.
Turn 215, 1525 AD: You have trained a Spy in Kyoto. Work has now begun on a Trebuchet.
Turn 215, 1525 AD: The borders of Dur-Kurigalzu have expanded!
Turn 215, 1525 AD: Gaspar Graziani (Great Spy) has been born in London (Elizagawa)!
Turn 215, 1525 AD: Shakagawa has founded Nodwengu.

Turn 216, 1530 AD: Hatsegawa has 310 gold available for trade.
Turn 216, 1530 AD: Mansagawa has 270 gold available for trade.
Turn 216, 1530 AD: Huayanagawa has 220 gold available for trade.
Turn 216, 1530 AD: Cyrusgawa has 90 gold available for trade.
Turn 216, 1530 AD: Elizagawa has 140 gold available for trade.
Turn 216, 1530 AD: Mansagawa has 11 gold per turn available for trade.
Turn 216, 1530 AD: Cyrusgawa will trade Aesthetics, Calendar, Scientific Method
Turn 216, 1530 AD: Elizagawa will trade Aesthetics, Replaceable Parts, Scientific Method
Turn 216, 1530 AD: Shakagawa will trade Calendar, Nationalism, Scientific Method
Turn 216, 1530 AD: Genghigawa will trade Calendar, Nationalism, Scientific Method
Turn 216, 1530 AD: Cyrusgawa will trade Spices
Turn 216, 1530 AD: Elizagawa will trade Rice, Silver
Turn 216, 1530 AD: Genghigawa will trade Rice
Turn 216, 1530 AD: You have discovered Replaceable Parts!
Turn 216, 1530 AD: Espionage Mission undertaken successfully!
Turn 216, 1530 AD: Upon completing the mission the Spy 9 (Osaka) has returned safely to Bollywood.
 
Good job Trys... we didn't have much of a chance for this caravel thing to work, and now we can move on to other strategies. :goodjob: There are still a few bits of the gambit for you to play out though...

Lets try settling it anyhow, infect it, and gift it immediately to HC if he will take it. If not, we can let it flip to Hatty (but if we are lucky, she will DOW us to take it).

If HC gets it, we flip him to Hinduism immediately with a spy in the DC (have the spy there stationary already), and hope he can spread it to MM.

We should steal sci meth from Hatty when she finishes that, then Phys from Liz, and so on towards UN.
--------------

irrelevant muttering to myself...
Spoiler :
I think it is impossible to get religious VC in 13 turns (without some fluke like HC/MM getting spontaneous hindu spread or such other thing out of our control).

That makes 23t the goal.

Without bulbs/steals it would take about 60t to get to Mass Media. We could probably do it in less than half of that with a concerted effort... say 30t. Then election + voting are some more turns. If we can't get HC/MM hindu-infected within 22 turns, we need to switch VC, imo.

-----

There are a few strategy options I can think of:
A) Make THEM do our dirty work
In this plan, I would use espionage to flip GK, Hatty, Shaka, and Cyrus to Hinduism. They have sea access where we do not and might try to spread to HC/MM. I doubt it, though, since that would require OB which they do not have. However, I believe that instead of switching to Bhudism, they might switch to Free Religion. In any case, it would at least temporarily break the Bhudism love-fest and perhaps get some wars going that we could join. Useful for UN victory, at the very least.

B) Take sea access by force:
In this plan, we do by muscle what we fail to take by cunning. Assyrian and Satsuma are the targets. Get those cities in time to get out caravel, get missionaries to HC/MM, get OB with HC/MM... seems a longshot to have this done in 23t - mainly the OB part. We still have not seen HC/MM caravels, so it might not even work.

C) Kill them all.
 
HC has a Caravel in Hatty's borders!!!!

Incan Caravel spotted!!! 2E/1N from Saxon!!!!
That means there is an inroad to HC. Lets still try the gift of DC, though.

Saves us having to take Satsuma by force... though we might ultimately have to do that anyhow...
 
Bother. Yeah, it's not obvious what the game means when the hover says there are 3 turns to go for the AI to finish an improvement because how do you count IBTs? That's why I said "my understanding of when the game says an improvement finishes has a slop of one turn, so please err on the side of caution--pay no attention to the stationary-spy bonus as long as we have enough EPs and spies." Well, it didn't work out, and maybe it wasn't possible anyway.

No harm in trying to gift DC to HC, but we still have the problem of failure probability--I'd rather not waste more turns with failed spies, then having to get more in position, blah blah. What are the odds of revolt success, how many spies do we have in position in each city, how soon can we get more there, and will we have enough EPs on Hatty to both steal SciMeth and instigate two revolts? This is another "EP balancing issue" that may have no obvious solution, but at least let the numbers provide some guidance on when to do what.

When I wrote last night about moving our military units around I forgot about kcd's recommendation to post a force by Cyrus's borders, so take what I said with a grain of salt since I didn't have a complete view of our forces.

Trys, can you play more tonight to try the DC gifting ploy? I don't have a clear view of what to do beyond that, although capturing Satsuma is looking rather unavoidable. OBs with HC/MM won't be an issue if we can capture one city from each and infect. ;) We'll have to see what their forces look like but several galleons would likely be required--there's only so much whipping Satsuma can take, so we'll probably have to capture a few coastal cities from Hatty and/or Cyrus. Not looking very quick or elegant, but maybe we'll get lucky. :)
 
Bother. Yeah, it's not obvious what the game means when the hover says there are 3 turns to go for the AI to finish an improvement because how do you count IBTs? That's why I said "my understanding of when the game says an improvement finishes has a slop of one turn, so please err on the side of caution--pay no attention to the stationary-spy bonus as long as we have enough EPs and spies." Well, it didn't work out, and maybe it wasn't possible anyway.

No harm in trying to gift DC to HC, but we still have the problem of failure probability--I'd rather not waste more turns with failed spies, then having to get more in position, blah blah. What are the odds of revolt success, how many spies do we have in position in each city, how soon can we get more there, and will we have enough EPs on Hatty to both steal SciMeth and instigate two revolts? This is another "EP balancing issue" that may have no obvious solution, but at least let the numbers provide some guidance on when to do what.

When I wrote last night about moving our military units around I forgot about kcd's recommendation to post a force by Cyrus's borders, so take what I said with a grain of salt since I didn't have a complete view of our forces.

Trys, can you play more tonight to try the DC gifting ploy? I don't have a clear view of what to do beyond that, although capturing Satsuma is looking rather unavoidable. OBs with HC/MM won't be an issue if we can capture one city from each and infect. ;) We'll have to see what their forces look like but several galleons would likely be required--there's only so much whipping Satsuma can take, so we'll probably have to capture a few coastal cities from Hatty and/or Cyrus. Not looking very quick or elegant, but maybe we'll get lucky. :)

To try moving things along, I played a little before leaving for work this morning. I tried to found the DC. Both city revolts succeeded with the first spies! Unfortunately, even though both are in revolt the culture borders have not changed, so it was impossible to settle. (I have a screenshot on my computer at home, but didn't have time to upload the save)

Let's discuss how to proceed from here. Also, is someone ready to take over soon? I can probably play a little tonight, but I have a presentsation for work I need to prepare for next week, so I'd like someone else to plan on playing this weekend if possible.
 
Hah! :) That makes me feel better (I guess :confused:). And it does clarify our options on what to do next, although that still needs more thought. I'd say you've done your duty, Trys, and this would be a good point for someone else to take over. Who wants it? Or rather, who has time to accept the challenge?
 
Ha, ok, so it doesn't work... nice try though.

If we stubbornly chase Religious VC, we will have to deep-six Hatty. Maybe its as easy as taking her coastal and gifting it infected to HC. But we'll need MM infected too, so that mean deep-sixing Cyrus as well, or at least getting coastal access there.

If MM/HC do not DOW someone soon, we'd have to DOW them to take a city and give it back infected. They happen to be in DP with our #1 friendly target Shaka at the moment, so its not such a great idea, perhaps.

I'm thinking it might just be best to race to Mass Media amd build the UN, while in the meantime flipping everyone on our landmass into Hinduism every time they switch out of it. If they go free religion, we flip them back to Org Rel and then flip them into Hindu.

We should be able to get Shaka and Liz happy with us. MM/HC would be the opponents and we'd need at least 3 AI to vote for us, so either Cyrus or GK. If we flip them to hindu first we might be able to avoid the -2 "You declared war on our friend".

An alternative scenario is to go religion, take Assyrian from Cyrus, Take Satsuma from Hatty, and then make an invasion force for MM and HC respectively. Only need to hold a city one turn to infect it. Before we do a lot of DOW's though, we should look at the Glance table closely, and see who we can DOW without penalty from one or more of our FT's. The Bhudism thing is killing us, so I suggest we start flipping our victims to Hindu before anything else.

Sure, we'll get opponents in votes, but we control the votes, so it shouldn't matter. Nobody would vote for them if they stay Hindu, I believe.

OK... most of this is just thinking out loud. I think if we can, we should put EP on Shaka, find out what he's teching, tech something else, and try to bribe him into war too.

Of course, 12t from now we can get all members involved in a war on Hatty if we've taken Lahore and Tokyo on the way to Satsuma... we can always give one back when the time comes.

Steal + Tech our way to Mass Media just in case. Might have to go to war with Shaka, so I think Liz moves to the #1 FT position.

Note... we don't need to mess with Hatty if we join war on GK... but we need something from Cyrus, so maybe Hatty is better... GK will like that we foight Cyrus, at least.

If Steelhorse isn't available, I suggest Xcal take the next. I am able to if you guys want, but once again there are many ways to skin this cat, and we need to consider carefully before doing it, or we'll just make a bloody mess of the diplomatic situation.

Its quite a challenging little puzzle we have. :cool:
 
I've belatedly and cursorily updated the Game Report. I see that besides SH, vra and AAA are light on turns. :mischief: Anybody want to take the wheel? Anyone? Anyone?
 
I've belatedly and cursorily updated the Game Report. I see that besides SH, vra and AAA are light on turns. :mischief: Anybody want to take the wheel? Anyone? Anyone?

I've been following along - reading all the posts, looking at screen shots, and looking through the logs. However I haven't been opening up the saves (a bit unsure of the rules and etiquette), so at best I have vague idea of what's going on, on the micro level :confused:.
I certainly wouldn't be the best choice :dubious:.......but if I'm the only one available, I can follow orders:salute:.
 
Feel free to open the save and look around--just don't move anything. That's what I just did. :) Here are my thoughts, aimed at a Religion win.

Heroic Epic would be nice to have since we're almost certainly going to war, and Hatty has a helluva lotta units. Let's move our spies to Lahore/Tokyo and save about half on the tech stealing costs, then take Aesth and Lit, and maybe Drama for culture/happiness slider capability. Cancel our gift of marble once we have Lit and build the Heroic Epic--probably in Bombay. (And build barracks in Babylon, another city with 2 GG's settled.) Meanwhile we finish Calendar and then research Steel ASAP, building wealth to speed it. Even without that measure we can get it in 7 turns at breakeven after some MM. Gotta have Steel for cannon, which we need to break Hatty's stacks and quickly take her cities.

Do a lot of city MM. Whip away unhappy citizens and build grens to start, then cannon. Hatty has her big stack (40 units or so) parked on a hill near Vijay. When we DoW they'll go to flat land and we can massacre them (if we have enough units). Meanwhile we'll take Tokyo and then Lahore in the east in 4 or 5 turns. After that we use the AP to declare holy war on the now Hindu-less Hatty. The timing is such that we'd DoW in 6 or 7 turns. Take Satsuma and whatever else we need to access HC and/or gift Hindu-infected cities to HC. If we can't get to MM that way then once our northern army has mopped up Hatty (oh--forgot to check if she has Hindu cities up there) we send it to Cyrus's Assyrian, take that city, and gain access to MM.

A couple AIs don't have Lib'ism yet. Shall we gift it to them and hope they adopt Free Religion? kcd suggested we might want to flip AIs into Hinduism for even better diplo results, in which case we'd rather they not have Lib'ism. I figure they're going to get it fairly soon so we might as well get some credit while we can.

I have no idea how all this should be coordinated with diplomacy. ;)
 
OK - save from this morning uploaded. The only difference between this save and the previous one is the city revolts in Thebes and Memphis.

Here is a screenshot:

Spoiler :


You can see the Egyptian culture still present in the DC settling area.

In addition to researching Steel, we could try stealing Rifling from Liz (I stole RP to open this option up). Our successful spies returned to Bollywood, so they can be sent to Kago. I did not upgrade our promoted xbows to grenadiers since I was hoping we could make them into rifles.
 
Kinda embarassng that we had a totally wrong view about how culture borders (don't) change in spy-induced revolts. We definitely would have tested in wb beforehand if we were not so pressed by the May 21 deadline... :mischief:

I agree with XCal's suggestions. Aim to time the war on Hatty so that Lahore + Tokyo (edit: AND Satsuma!!! Beware, Hindu has been spread to Satsuma - did we do that or is Hatty starting to spread???) are captured before the next AP resolution in 12t (election in 2t). Then the resolution is war against the hethen egyptians.
Its more important to get that common war resoultion than to get alll the techs stolen that Xcal wants. So its a timing thing.

For now Cyrus is safe from us.

We need to watch DP's, and who is green or yellow towards Hatty. We should flip any FT who is green or yellow to Hindu, so that we don't have to take a diplo hit when we dow. (this doesn't work... they will remain pleased after losing the +diplo, until the -diplo gets big enough for different religion, though it could be fast enough for us).

So a spy to Shaka(hid hindu city) and Liz(Kago), and enough EP on each to do an "influence religion" mission. Forget the discounts, because if it takes 6t of war to get Tokyo+Lahore, then we need to dow 6t from now, and need to flip them to hindu 5t from now.

Balancing needed is for EP for relig influence, cash for upgrades, tech rate for steel, and whatever.

AAA can take it. There isn't much pressure at this point... we're already out of the laurels, so lets just finish as elegantly as we can.
 
I've been examining the diplomacy and am starting to think that we won't be able to spread hindu to HC/MM without severely setting back our chances at getting an AI to Friendly.

Shaka will lose +5 diplo on the AI when the common religion is broken, and Liz will lose +4 diplo on AI when the common religion is broken. However, the AI-AI relationships do not become lower than Pleased until the total diplo relation is below Zero. That's right, they are pleased at 0. (By constrat they have to be at +5 or above with us to just be pleased).

So every war we start will cost us -2 diplo, even if we start due to DP. With pretty much everyone. Taking into account the loss of the +diplo if we flip one to hindu, the following are the best we can do:

Dow Hatty: HC + Cyrus won't care, -2 on rest.
Dow Cyrus: Hatty and Ghenghi won't care, -2 on rest.
Dow HC: Liz won't care, -2 on rest.
Dow GK: Cyrus + Hatty won't care, -2 on rest.
Dow Shaka: -2 on all (plus impact of DP's).

If we can keep them hindu long enough, we can overcome the -2 for DOW on their friends eventually.

At the VERY minimum, we'll have to DOW Hatty AND one more: If HC/MM dow someone we'll have to either dow that someone to get OB or we'll have to dow HC and infect using muscle. (There is also an off chance that we still must DOW Cyrus). So we are in need of creating -4 with all our FT's (possible exception Cyrus) before we can even enable the victory vote. And I should point out that even at +10, we aren't Friendly, and so we'd need to build up another +5 to get farther than where we are now.

Frankly, I don't see how to do it, at least not in any reasonable time.

Edit: note, I have only taken into account the +diplo they will lose to each other, but there will be -diplo for different religion as well, starting at -1 and going up to -2 in a short while... so still could work).

------------------

UN requires us to have SEVERAL AI friendly. And more friendly with us than with MM/HC. Only way I see that happening is if we can hold them hindu. This would mean we abandon all our war planning, and just make an all-out blitz for Mass Media, try to have a GE on hand to speed the building of the UN, after Mass media put slider all on EP, divided between all four FT's, and spam spies so that we can continuously flip them to Hindu every time they flip out of it. We might be able to eventually get the relations we need that way. We'd need to get at least 3, maybe 4 of our FT's to Friendly. No simple task, but maybe easier than getting one Friendly but not hindu, or two Friendly and Hindu.

I'm betting this does not take longer than doing the religious VC considering the war requirements, and the fact that a lot of the tech on our path are available for theft: Astro, Sci Meth, Phys, and we can probably get Elec as well, but have a GSci who can bulb about 1/3 of it if not. Radio and Mass Media.

If HC/MM ever DOW someone (before we get MM), we could re-examine how fast we could infect them. As I see it, there is no point breaking into Satsuma if we would still have to break into HC/MM.

Also, getting to Physics will let us see the darn map and we can re-evaluate there, as well.

Our biggest problem this game (like in many previous games) is not having relevant map knowledge. It probably would have been worth it to start wars just to get that earlier. Would have seen the ice-wall north of Babylon, at least. In SGOTM16 we are going to build 5 scouts before even a worker. :p :joke:


Anyhow, my feeling now is that we should aim for a UN victory but stay open to the idea of AP victory if either we can get OB with HC/MM or we see other opportunities when we get maps (after flipping to hindu) or make airships.
 
Can we flip Liz and at least one other FT to hindu before DOW and still capture Lahore/Tokyo/Satsuma before the resolution in 13 turns??? If we can, we should. If we can't, we should probably hold off and aim UN.

What say you AAA? You have a lot of experience with wars... do you think its do-able?

Edit to add:
Some other suggestions I have are
1) in one turn we have calandar. Try to trade Lib for Astro + Sci meth or whatever we can get that is useful.
2) Beg aesthetics from Liz (Toku never says yes, but worth a shot)
3) Beg war on Cyrus from Shaka
4) DR+Lib for Sci meth and/or Nationalism from GK
5) Stop GK/Cyrus war with DR to Cyrus or Lib to GK... then might be possible to bribe them to war on Hatty

Note, there are no worst enemies, so any trade is acceptable if we think we get any gain at all.
 
How about culture? :D Slow, but we have 4 religions and it's just building temples and cathedrals and then hitting enter a whole lot. Nah, we'd lose to an AI on the UN or Space. I dunno, this one's a real bi... bear. And despite my brave words I don't really believe we'll be in shape within 6 turns to hold off Hatty's stack of 40 units and capture 3 cities in 5 turns. Our only hope is to get Hatty into a war with somebody so that she moves her huge stack N of Babylon so we can defend a single chokepoint instead of 4 cities--we'd almost certainly lose Vijay otherwise (and likely Dur-K too---and I'm not even counting Trojan Horse). My only suggestion would be to bribe Shaka to DoW her by gifting a tech and Trojan Horse, but I doubt he'd do it. On the other hand, if we wait much longer, Hatty will be able to build grens and/or rifles and then it gets Really hard. Hmm, maybe bribing Shaka with Steel would do the trick?

If I were playing I'd drop Calendar and go all out on Steel and try to bribe Shaka into war with Hatty. Hope she moves her stack north, build up our forces some more, then DoW her. The timing will not work well with the AP, though. Build some ships on Hatty's coast and see what we can see. And then probably abandon the game. I like a challenge and think we could eventually win by Domination but I don't want to put in the time.
 
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