Oh you are full of optimism today, aren't you Chris. 
I think we go for the UN, afte rthey are all in Free Relig or Hindu.
SGOTM 15 - Unusual Suspects
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Oh you are full of optimism today, aren't you Chris. I think we go for the UN, afte rthey are all in Free Relig or Hindu.
I think we go for the UN, afte rthey are all in Free Relig or Hindu.
I don't know what we'd do without Chris' positivity ya know
And....not a bad idea actually. Just in case. Maybe add some military escort.
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
Very nice! 
How do we make Cyrus a whipping boy if he's infected with Hinduism? (Yes, I know he isn't yet.) We can't use the AP to start a holy war against him then. Bribe somebody? Either way, he'd probably close borders to us so we'd have to capture a city and then gift it back--or see that he's completely eliminated, which would be tough.
Any chance we can get somebody's map yet?
Perhaps we should put all our espi on Liz now to take advantage of Agra while we still can. Any chance we can infect Kago to improve our espi leverage there as a backup to Agra? Our best shot will be if Liz drops Theoc--keep an eye on that.
Any techs we want to gift yet? Seaborne invasion of MM/HC doesn't seem very feasible so we'll need OBs to insert our missionaries--need to plan how to do that.
How many espi pts needed to cause 2 Egyptian cities to revolt if we pursue the plop-a-city-and-build-ship-to-reach-HC ploy? If it's too many (requiring lots of gold) perhaps it would be better to put our gold toward teching/stealing better military techs and then march to Satsuma by force. In such a case, it would be good to distract Hatty's northern stack by sending it to attack somebody else (Cyrus?).
What's all this then about a land route to MM/HC?
How do we make Cyrus a whipping boy if he's infected with Hinduism? (Yes, I know he isn't yet.) We can't use the AP to start a holy war against him then. Bribe somebody? Either way, he'd probably close borders to us so we'd have to capture a city and then gift it back--or see that he's completely eliminated, which would be tough.Any chance we can get somebody's map yet?
Perhaps we should put all our espi on Liz now to take advantage of Agra while we still can. Any chance we can infect Kago to improve our espi leverage there as a backup to Agra? Our best shot will be if Liz drops Theoc--keep an eye on that.
Any techs we want to gift yet? Seaborne invasion of MM/HC doesn't seem very feasible so we'll need OBs to insert our missionaries--need to plan how to do that.
How many espi pts needed to cause 2 Egyptian cities to revolt if we pursue the plop-a-city-and-build-ship-to-reach-HC ploy? If it's too many (requiring lots of gold) perhaps it would be better to put our gold toward teching/stealing better military techs and then march to Satsuma by force. In such a case, it would be good to distract Hatty's northern stack by sending it to attack somebody else (Cyrus?).
What's all this then about a land route to MM/HC?
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
I think I mentioned this before, but what about using the AP (in 4 turns) to take back Tokyo, then once we've built up a decent army with advanced units (courtesy of techs stolen from Liz) we attack Hatty and quickly take back Lahore, timed so that we can use another AP vote to start a holy war against the now-Hinduless Hatty? During that time we capture Satsuma as the gateway to reaching MM/HC. Of course, we'd have to know by then whether or not MM is reachable that way. Once we've infected everybody else, we give one or more Hindu cities back to Hatty.
Trystero
Deity
Great job kcd! 
Sorry I haven't contributed much. I've had a crazy week at work. I will try to catch up on all the details if you need someone else to play, but I might require some (OK. maybe a lot) of handholding.
Sorry I haven't contributed much. I've had a crazy week at work. I will try to catch up on all the details if you need someone else to play, but I might require some (OK. maybe a lot) of handholding.
Don't know about a land route yet... just know that there is no sea route from where we are. I think taking Satsuma by force is a reasonable option, though I don't know that it would give us what we want, either.
Perhaps we could get a unit to +1 visibility and move him to Satsuma to see if there is access there. Since the HC border goes 2 tiles into the water, but only in one direction, there is probably mountains there... but whether there is an opening or not... I don't know. +1 visibility would do it... a chariot with 2 promos (flanking and +1 visibility) might be worth doing. If we can get horses. Are there any other units that can get flanking +vis with only 5XP?
Hatty can be dealt with by making sure her units get bounced to our west by closing borders. We'd fight defensive in the west, and have pretty open shot at Satsuma (might be wise to first reassign Tokyo to us in that case -- 4t to vote).
She's the only one who hates us... if we annoy her with demands and taking back Tokyo with the AP, she might do us the favor of DOWing us. It would be good to be sure we can bribe someone else to join. DR and or Edu might work once they get up to pleased (shaka would trade for one turn at pleased, but we had nothing to offer - he's only +1diplo away, and merc will maybe get us that in about 5 turns).
Babylon required 635EP to revolt, before the discount. We can make around 200EP per turn sustainable, maybe more now we have Scotland Yard in Babylon.
Best would be to get OB with team HC/MM peacefully... some gifts might get us to +4 fair trade, and merc will get us slowly up to +6 more. So it depends on whether and where the route there is, more than on our ability to invade them, I believe.
Keep exploring up and east of GK, if there is a land route that's where is should be. If there is only a sea route, then we need to at least take satsuma (or do the devious planting during revolt). We have not seen a single land unit or sea unit from that team... but since they have no OB that does not tell us whther they are totally barred from any exit or entrance. Maybe if our borders on the island touch HC's borders in the mountains we could gift him an island city. Still need to find Mansa. Buying maps should be a prio... if we do end up getting peace with Babylon, (after others all make peace), then getting his map would be prio. Otherwise need to watch if we can get somoen elses in trade when they are pleased.
I had to stop because we need a tech plan. Liz can go for Liberalism now. But its a Toku so you never know. Pretty soon we'll see what she's going for. No point going for Lib first if she'll easily beat us. If not, its worth it. We could gift Lib around and hope they all go Free Relig. That's really good for us.
Note, Philo can be stolen, if we want something else for our own beakers. It won't have any trade value, so no point doing it ourselves, maybe. Didn't think of that straight off. I thought we'd steal the most expensive techs, though, and do the cheaper ones ourselves.
It would be useful for Lib race if we do get a GM in the next cycle... but we could also make use of a GSpy. Anything but a GA or GPro is OK.
SpMin should help a good deal, as well. Making markets/banks something to think about in a couple places.
But yeah, after second thought, there is no limit on the number of settlers we can have, so why not send one along with any Hmiss making the long trek. Better to have one and not need it than need it and have to wait for it to arrive (and lose the spot he could settle).
Think tech, and military strategy for finishing Babylon. I will infect Babylon in any case, and have another HMiss ready if we need to settle that city north of VJ.
VJ is kinda empty right now, but I've left a lot of units down by Drona/Kyoto/Bolly. Babylon is not a threat, but there's a LOT of English and Egyptian units around there atm. And BOY are they stupid to be taking down culture borders. Get some more units we can probably steal her prize of Nippur. Shaka will take forever to take Akkad, but eventually...
Stealing I'd go for PPr, Chem, Repr Parts, steel, whatever we need from the bottom of the tree, and use manual tech to backfill the rest.
Perhaps we could get a unit to +1 visibility and move him to Satsuma to see if there is access there. Since the HC border goes 2 tiles into the water, but only in one direction, there is probably mountains there... but whether there is an opening or not... I don't know. +1 visibility would do it... a chariot with 2 promos (flanking and +1 visibility) might be worth doing. If we can get horses. Are there any other units that can get flanking +vis with only 5XP?
Hatty can be dealt with by making sure her units get bounced to our west by closing borders. We'd fight defensive in the west, and have pretty open shot at Satsuma (might be wise to first reassign Tokyo to us in that case -- 4t to vote).
She's the only one who hates us... if we annoy her with demands and taking back Tokyo with the AP, she might do us the favor of DOWing us. It would be good to be sure we can bribe someone else to join. DR and or Edu might work once they get up to pleased (shaka would trade for one turn at pleased, but we had nothing to offer - he's only +1diplo away, and merc will maybe get us that in about 5 turns).
Babylon required 635EP to revolt, before the discount. We can make around 200EP per turn sustainable, maybe more now we have Scotland Yard in Babylon.
Best would be to get OB with team HC/MM peacefully... some gifts might get us to +4 fair trade, and merc will get us slowly up to +6 more. So it depends on whether and where the route there is, more than on our ability to invade them, I believe.
Keep exploring up and east of GK, if there is a land route that's where is should be. If there is only a sea route, then we need to at least take satsuma (or do the devious planting during revolt). We have not seen a single land unit or sea unit from that team... but since they have no OB that does not tell us whther they are totally barred from any exit or entrance. Maybe if our borders on the island touch HC's borders in the mountains we could gift him an island city. Still need to find Mansa. Buying maps should be a prio... if we do end up getting peace with Babylon, (after others all make peace), then getting his map would be prio. Otherwise need to watch if we can get somoen elses in trade when they are pleased.
I had to stop because we need a tech plan. Liz can go for Liberalism now. But its a Toku so you never know. Pretty soon we'll see what she's going for. No point going for Lib first if she'll easily beat us. If not, its worth it. We could gift Lib around and hope they all go Free Relig. That's really good for us.
Note, Philo can be stolen, if we want something else for our own beakers. It won't have any trade value, so no point doing it ourselves, maybe. Didn't think of that straight off. I thought we'd steal the most expensive techs, though, and do the cheaper ones ourselves.
It would be useful for Lib race if we do get a GM in the next cycle... but we could also make use of a GSpy. Anything but a GA or GPro is OK.
SpMin should help a good deal, as well. Making markets/banks something to think about in a couple places.
But yeah, after second thought, there is no limit on the number of settlers we can have, so why not send one along with any Hmiss making the long trek. Better to have one and not need it than need it and have to wait for it to arrive (and lose the spot he could settle).
Think tech, and military strategy for finishing Babylon. I will infect Babylon in any case, and have another HMiss ready if we need to settle that city north of VJ.
VJ is kinda empty right now, but I've left a lot of units down by Drona/Kyoto/Bolly. Babylon is not a threat, but there's a LOT of English and Egyptian units around there atm. And BOY are they stupid to be taking down culture borders. Get some more units we can probably steal her prize of Nippur. Shaka will take forever to take Akkad, but eventually...
Stealing I'd go for PPr, Chem, Repr Parts, steel, whatever we need from the bottom of the tree, and use manual tech to backfill the rest.
Yes... now you're talkin'... that's the kind of creative deviousness that may be called for! We can take her in and out of membership at will... that has uses I hadn't considered.
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
Recon can get Sentry, but need Combat3, so that's out barring splurging a GG on it. BTW, I forgot to mention I settled our new GG in Bombay so we get 9XP units under Theoc. I noticed from your screenie that Babylon also has 2 settled GGs. Obviously, buying a map from MM/HC would fix our visibility problem. So would a map from Hatty (or someone who has her map), since her borders extend into the water.
Kyoto can run a lot more specs and would be the quickest for the next GP, I think, but it's kind of a mixed gene pool--can always burn a GP for a Golden Age. Does Liz have Edu yet? Or Econ, for which Edu is a prereq? We could research Econ right now and get a free GM if we beat Liz. Maybe save up enough EPs (if it's not too many) with maxed slider to see what's she's researching. If we have a shot at being first to either Econ or Lib then go for it; for the latter we'd need to steal or better yet trade for Philo. If neither is possible then we'll have saved up a bunch of EPs to steal military tech(s).
Since (we hope) the end is not too far off it might be good to put more of our hammers toward building wealth, and running appropriate specs to speed our research/thievery.
Liz has Philo and Edu. I do not know what she is researching. If Econ, we'd have a shot at Lib, if Lib, we'd have a shot at econ (though not if she took that for her free tech
)See what she's teching before deciding that, I guess. Two turns maybe before we can see it.
Another possibility perhaps is amassing so much EP on Mansa and HC that we can see their cities. Since we probably would not get to use that for anything else, its probably best to steal Agra blind while we can. Airships at Physics might be the first peak we'll get the rate we're going.
Infecting Kago makes sense, too. We can get those cities back, I think, if/when needed.
I did not want to build wealth since I felt we need units. Perhaps when we can upgrade existing units to grens or something like that it might be worthwhile, or if we need to really race for Econ or Lib.
There is also the question of Unis + Oxford. Where and when... I assume the whip will be used. Bolly makes the most tech when the research slider is up, and has academy. Should I also make the ForbPalace in Babylon at the first best chance?
I think we'll lose the caravel and Hmiss north of Babylon. Not a big deal since it can't reach Cyrus anyhow, and we'll be able to make another in Babylon eventually.
Is there anything else we should discuss before I try to put together a plan for the next 10 turns or so?
Gifting DR is still in the works for 1t from SpMin, right? The +diplo is worth more than anything we could get for it, except if maps are for sale, then I take maps.
Free relig is going to vastly alter the texture of this game... AI alliances will whither, and we'll lose -2 to -5 negative diplo hits on all AI, except maybe founders of religions. We will stay in Hindu, though.
Have to re-adjust FT's at that point, probably. Just one Friendly is all I ask for. But I'll take two.
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
Sounds pretty good. Definitely find out what Liz is researching and then pick what makes sense. Maybe you can beat her to Lib'ism and then choose Econ to steal the GM! 
Keep an eye out for GP announcements and watch the tech screen. And yes, within the constraints imposed by the above, steal Agra blind.
Sure, build units if we need them. I was mostly thinking of the tradeoffs of banks, grocers, etc. vs building gold--especially now with Merc'lism and only internal trade routes. I also feel like we're in a rush to steal from Agra while we can, which puts a premium on gold for espi right now--tech stealing will be a lot more costly when/if we "lose" Agra. Use your judgement.
On the FP, it'll be 9 turns before Babylon comes out of revolt. How quickly would it be able to build the FP then? If Kyoto isn't needed for other things, now might be a good time for it to build the FP, particularly if we're going to expand eastwards a bit. From what I recall, it could build the FP in about 6 turns. Is it worthwhile (for FP and SM) to switch into OrgRel for a little while?
Keep an eye out for GP announcements and watch the tech screen. And yes, within the constraints imposed by the above, steal Agra blind.Sure, build units if we need them. I was mostly thinking of the tradeoffs of banks, grocers, etc. vs building gold--especially now with Merc'lism and only internal trade routes. I also feel like we're in a rush to steal from Agra while we can, which puts a premium on gold for espi right now--tech stealing will be a lot more costly when/if we "lose" Agra. Use your judgement.
Again, I don't know about the value of unis/Oxford if our game will be over soonish. If we can get ahead of everyone but Liz militarily--at least in quality of units--by stealing her techs then I don't think we really need to push research. And yes, to get the uni's fast enough to be at all worthwhile we'd have to do at least some whipping, which leaves less population for whipping military units when we need them--soon.
On the FP, it'll be 9 turns before Babylon comes out of revolt. How quickly would it be able to build the FP then? If Kyoto isn't needed for other things, now might be a good time for it to build the FP, particularly if we're going to expand eastwards a bit. From what I recall, it could build the FP in about 6 turns. Is it worthwhile (for FP and SM) to switch into OrgRel for a little while?
You betcha!
SteelHorse
Deity
Need to stay on good terms with Liz post war with Hammy. We have a high military struggle diplo benefit at the moment and Hammy doesn't have much life left. Gift of DR may help.
BTW - Hammy will give us Nippur for peace, this keeps it out of Liz's hands. But it looks like there is another city west of Nippur.
Any chance culture bombing one of our island cities gives us enough culture to share borders with Huaya so that we could gift?
Another point is I don't believe it is necessary to get a vote that the AI needs to be all the way to Friendly. Here is a screen that shows a diplo vote with Zara voting at pleased.
BTW - Hammy will give us Nippur for peace, this keeps it out of Liz's hands. But it looks like there is another city west of Nippur.
Any chance culture bombing one of our island cities gives us enough culture to share borders with Huaya so that we could gift?
Another point is I don't believe it is necessary to get a vote that the AI needs to be all the way to Friendly. Here is a screen that shows a diplo vote with Zara voting at pleased.
Attachments
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
There's no hard and fast rule on requiring Friendly, I think because of the hidden diplo modifiers. But Friendly is a good rule of thumb.
It would be good to have Hatty's stack on the far side of Babylon when we DoW her. You can try the "Why don't you attack <this city>" bit. Of course, the war with Hammy will likely be over by then, but maybe if she captures a city up there she'll stay put.
It would be good to have Hatty's stack on the far side of Babylon when we DoW her. You can try the "Why don't you attack <this city>" bit. Of course, the war with Hammy will likely be over by then, but maybe if she captures a city up there she'll stay put.
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
Culture only extends 2 tiles across water, so no.
ZY is always a good choice of opponent for AP wins because he always has +2 hidden modifier. Then there is also a random modifier that can add or subtract 1 or two from that. Toku is a bad choice because he always has at best 0 hidden modifier, usually negative. Not only that, but with Aggr AI, you get an automatic -2 hidden. That's why they can show +4 and cautious, +2 and annoyed.
They'll have to be yellow. But that doesn't guarantee their vote if we have an opponent, because of war-monger respect they have hidden plus with the opponent... higher for our opponent means vote for our opponent, even if they show Friendly to us and pleased to them. Very annoying.
I try to summarize what was discussed so I don't forget anything during play.
PPP:
-Find route and infect HC/MM - settler along with HMiss on land route just in case.
-Gift DR to all FT's (maybe to all) with 1t on SpMin... this will mean Vers out of question unless we get a GE, but we won't need it.
-FP in Kyoto now
-Try to steal Nippur militarily.
-Settle and infect new city during Nippur revolt no matter who takes it.
-Keep war with Babylon going as long as we getting +diplo for it; make sure he is dead or will take a hindu city for peace before stopping.
-Use AP to take back Tokyo.
-If we find ourselves at war with Hatty, take back Lahore, and get the Hindu community to DOW.
-If war, military objective is Satsuma coast access.
-get maps if at all possible. Might be from someone after we gift DR.
-continue to tech Philo slowly until we see what Liz is teching... decide on Econ or Lib race depending on which she is aiming for, unless neither seems possible.
-steal Agra blind while we can. focus on military techs
-infect Kago.
-maybe uni in Bolly and other high tech city(s), but no push for Oxford yet, if ever. Its nice to get some techs ourselves so we have gift/trade possibilities for +diplo.
-check resources and see if gifts/trades possible.
-EP slider at max on Liz, build wealth instead of commerce multipliers to support max rate right now.
-GP will save for turnset duration, unless GM for trade mission to London, or GE for Versailles in Babylon.
-duration 10t or until some question requiring discussion comes up, whichever comes first.
-OB with anyone who gives it, for now. Could close with Hatty if war imminent to trap her units west.
Am I forgetting something?
PPP:
-Find route and infect HC/MM - settler along with HMiss on land route just in case.
-Gift DR to all FT's (maybe to all) with 1t on SpMin... this will mean Vers out of question unless we get a GE, but we won't need it.
-FP in Kyoto now
-Try to steal Nippur militarily.
-Settle and infect new city during Nippur revolt no matter who takes it.
-Keep war with Babylon going as long as we getting +diplo for it; make sure he is dead or will take a hindu city for peace before stopping.
-Use AP to take back Tokyo.
-If we find ourselves at war with Hatty, take back Lahore, and get the Hindu community to DOW.
-If war, military objective is Satsuma coast access.
-get maps if at all possible. Might be from someone after we gift DR.
-continue to tech Philo slowly until we see what Liz is teching... decide on Econ or Lib race depending on which she is aiming for, unless neither seems possible.
-steal Agra blind while we can. focus on military techs
-infect Kago.
-maybe uni in Bolly and other high tech city(s), but no push for Oxford yet, if ever. Its nice to get some techs ourselves so we have gift/trade possibilities for +diplo.
-check resources and see if gifts/trades possible.
-EP slider at max on Liz, build wealth instead of commerce multipliers to support max rate right now.
-GP will save for turnset duration, unless GM for trade mission to London, or GE for Versailles in Babylon.
-duration 10t or until some question requiring discussion comes up, whichever comes first.
-OB with anyone who gives it, for now. Could close with Hatty if war imminent to trap her units west.
Am I forgetting something?
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
Looks good. Try to get Hatty's stack N of Babylon with "Why don't you attack..." Good luck!
...and no land-route to MM/HC.
Three options as I see it... submarines (radio), but that won't get infection unless we get OB with them. Option 2, presuming they stay largest opponent, is UN (We can steal Sci Meth and Phys). Option 3 has already been named... Take Satsuma militarily, and hope for access to HC/MM by boat.
Hatty's stack is next to Akkad, N of Babylon... so we should probably close borders with her (and try to flipp Nippur, or infect it and steal from it, though Hatty is most backwards.
We have grens... if we save cash for upgrades, we can have an insurmountable stack against Hatty's war chariots.
We have pleased +10 with Shaka, +7 GK, +5 Liz, and Cyrus. Hatty has us at -2 as WE. That's the only WE on the board.
Cyrus has his smallest city infected.
We got Dur-Kargalizu from the Babylonian. Hatty got Nippur, and Shaka got Akkad... the turn before we could have. I played one extra turn to see how Babylon would die, because it affects the planning.
We successfully stole Chemistry, Mil Sci, and Printing Press. Agra flipped before I could get more. We should flip Liz out of Theo to make it possible to infect Kago and make cheaper missions... PPr cost 1500 EP from Kago.
We got a GSci which I saved.
We can get defensive pact with Liz and Shaka. Might be worth doing before our common war benefits decay, in hopes of buying map.
GK got Theo as a gift, so no point giving him DR since he's at the max +4 for fair trades.
Hre's the screenies... I'll go upload the save and attach the log.
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Three options as I see it... submarines (radio), but that won't get infection unless we get OB with them. Option 2, presuming they stay largest opponent, is UN (We can steal Sci Meth and Phys). Option 3 has already been named... Take Satsuma militarily, and hope for access to HC/MM by boat.
Hatty's stack is next to Akkad, N of Babylon... so we should probably close borders with her (and try to flipp Nippur, or infect it and steal from it, though Hatty is most backwards.
We have grens... if we save cash for upgrades, we can have an insurmountable stack against Hatty's war chariots.
We have pleased +10 with Shaka, +7 GK, +5 Liz, and Cyrus. Hatty has us at -2 as WE. That's the only WE on the board.
Cyrus has his smallest city infected.
We got Dur-Kargalizu from the Babylonian. Hatty got Nippur, and Shaka got Akkad... the turn before we could have. I played one extra turn to see how Babylon would die, because it affects the planning.
We successfully stole Chemistry, Mil Sci, and Printing Press. Agra flipped before I could get more. We should flip Liz out of Theo to make it possible to infect Kago and make cheaper missions... PPr cost 1500 EP from Kago.
We got a GSci which I saved.
We can get defensive pact with Liz and Shaka. Might be worth doing before our common war benefits decay, in hopes of buying map.
GK got Theo as a gift, so no point giving him DR since he's at the max +4 for fair trades.
Hre's the screenies... I'll go upload the save and attach the log.
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Can't take Tokyo or Lahore by AP... too Egyptian now. Could put culture there by spy, but why?
Here is your Session Turn Log from 1350 AD to 1470 AD:
Here is your Session Turn Log from 1350 AD to 1470 AD:
Spoiler :
Trystero
Deity
All the crazy ice formations make me worried that there is no route to MM/HC except via submarine.
If we can get SM and Physics from Liz, UN seems like a viable option. Maybe we should focus our tech that way while making Hatty public enemy #1 to keep the Hindu coalition warring and getting us access to Satsuma for option 3?
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