SGOTM 16 - Fifth Element

[Shaandore]

I have a little doubt now about making an enemy city legendary with spy missions. Won't the city flip to our side long before we can spy in so much culture? Or did you plan this as a blitz attack with ~20 spies on the same turn? I would need to recheck the article on flipping, but we need to calculate with that.

 

[ZPV]

I have a little doubt now about making an enemy city legendary with spy missions. Won't the city flip to our side long before we can spy in so much culture? Or did you plan this as a blitz attack with ~20 spies on the same turn? I would need to recheck the articel on flipping, but we need to calculate with that.

Cities flip because of tile culture, not city culture. The spread culture mission doesn't do very much for tile culture.

edit: regardless, cities take a long time to flip. You need two revolts, each having a maximum 10% chance per turn, and lategame AIs can pack enough units into a city to all but eliminate that chance.

 

[Shaandore]

I don't have time time check the article now, but if I remember correctly, city and tile culture are strongly related. In time, high city culture will generate high tile culture, which will eventually lead to city flipping. (I think there is a turn by turn increase in tile culture of the inner culture rings depending on city culture.) We need to make sure that we can execute all the missions we want to before the city flips. It can be 15 turns, 40 turns or 5 turns, I really don't know. It's just that we shouldn't overlook that. I will definitely look into this once I have some spare time.

 

[ZPV]

I don't have time time check the article now, but if I remember correctly, city and tile culture are strongly related. In time, high city culture will generate high tile culture, which will eventually lead to city flipping. (I think there is a turn by turn increase in tile culture of the inner culture rings depending on city culture.) We need to make sure that we can execute all the missions we want to before the city flips. It can be 15 turns, 40 turns or 5 turns, I really don't know. It's just that we shouldn't overlook that. I will definitely look into this once I have some spare time.

A bigger threat is that the other civ might liberate the city.
We can get around both by being at war with them, and allowing them to capture the city (we could even culture bomb it once or twice beforehand to take out the shallow part of the culture curve and give us another espionage discount).
Captured cities will never flip back, and they won't liberate it to us if we're at war with them.

 

[Shaandore]

@ZPV: True, but war has the disadvantage of closed borders, so more spies get caught. I will make an analysis on the matter later.

@All:
I would like to end my turnset tomorrow night, so we can move on. I would like everybody around to comment on the next city and whether we should build a second settler (and if so, is it a good idea to do it in Paris). I would be pleased if someone could share his opinion about the underlined things in the PPP.

Current PPP:

Spoiler :

Every turn: make sure Lyons has the Engineer hired.

Millitary: continue exploring with warrior. Other spy heads to Tolosa.

Research and Diplo: gift fishing to Brennus this turn? after maths is in, switch to Currency at 0%. Try to steal IW as soon as we have -50% from stationary spy (so later if we have enough points we can steal a cheap tech). Or do we try stealing sooner so we have IW earlier?

Cities:
Lyons builds Hindu temple (or maybe research?) so it can grow and to get a bigger happy cap so later we can work those nice tiles.
Orelans builds barracks until it grows, then 3 pop whips settler (for fishing village if we go by my vote) with the overflow in the barracks, then builds a warrior for military police. Later it builds 3 swords (if we have iron) to capture barb city, otherwise it builds research. When at happy cap, it builds worker.
Paris grows while building research until it is 1 turn from growing to size 8, starts next settler to stall growth until happy cap rises.
Rheims builds granary and whips it as soon as it is possible.

Workers: Lyons worker starts going south to road to our jungle spot
2 workers at Paris build the road, so the third can start prechopping the green forest SE of Paris this turn. It builds a mine on the roaded green hill until Paris starts on settler, then chops into settler with the math bonus.
One of the two other workers go to whichever city we choose to settle first (if we go by my vote, it improves pigs for the fishing village and later it chops/builds cottages on shared tiles), the other continues south to road to Tolosa and later help Rheims worker clear the jungles.
Rheims worker starts roading to Tolosa, but goes back to Rheims once IW is in to improve gems.
New city starts on a workboat, which will get chopped, and then granary is next.

Questions that need to be adressed are underlined.

BTW I would prefer if we tried to move like this: active player posts PPP of just a couple of turns. Much easier to look forward 7-8 turns, and easier to write the PPP, then we comment and he plays.

 

[ZPV]

@Shaan's PPP:
Fishing to Brennus? Yes.
I don't care about some small tech in 15 or 20 turns. Steal IW as soon as it is cheap enough to be available. We can beg such a cheap tech from Brennus soon.
Hindu Temple in Lyons? I'd prefer not. We're about to get +2 from Gems, and then incense and silk not too long after. An exploring work boat (for the land opposite the barb city) would be better.

 

[Folket]

Looks fine with me.

 

[BLubmuz]

I reopened the save to verify, because when i posted the dotmaps i ovelooked it.

I noticed that we're +4 gpt at 0 science. This means we can't afford more than one city for now.
Thus i recommend to keep the settler idle until we can see iron. If we have it in our borders, proceed with that pesky fish city, otherwise send it to grab it.

Shaan, please play until IW is in even if you go over turn 100. Please remember that the goal in this submission is not submit a turn 100 save, but at least a turn 100 save. Thus, if you play until 102 or 105 to see iron, that doesn't matter.

 

[ZPV]

How do you make that out Blubmuz? It looks like 20gpt at 0% to me.

 

[Shaandore]

Blubmuz must have overlooked something, we have 20 gpt at 0% science, and it will increase a lot in the following 10 turns.

If it's okay, I won't postpone the settler, because we can settle another city if we don't have iron nearby. A reassurance would be nice though.

I will start playing in 30 mins.

 

[Shaandore]

turnset played to t101.

Ramesses built the mids, switched to rep, and has Monarchy, which he is willing to trade.

good news:
Brennus researched sailing and is willing to trade it for writing.
We have trade routes now with Brennus and we settled the fishing village (Tours). We are at 25 gpt at 0% and we can get currency in 5 turns.


bad news:
first spy got caught after waiting for 5 turns to be able to steal (I checked it every turn, and it became available only at 50% bonus). Second spy has 3 turns left to have the 50% bonus.
Brennus settled the corn jungle spot just as the second settler became ready. A barb city showed up at the sugar/gem spot. (I even sent a worker to start the road to jungle spot... now he is in the forest SWSW of Orelans)
We have a big island on the east, but I screwed up exploration (thought it was a small island), so we might need to circle back around because of ice.
I screwed up one or two worker turns (started to build a cottage 1NE of Tours, and that tile can not be shared with Paris)

save is coming soon to thread. If you want me to play until IW, I can continue. Otherwise I will just submit save.

 

[Shaandore]

save and some screenshots

(on the 4th pic: I had to dodge that archer. Now it is hopefully wreaking havoc in the yellow lands )

Edit: honestly if the next player is up, i would rather submit now. I feel like I screwed up a bit. That jungle city could have been ours if I had sent the first settler there.

 

[BLubmuz]

How do you make that out Blubmuz? It looks like 20gpt at 0% to me.

I just opened the save Shaan posted 11/13. A bit outdated perhaps?
I used it only for dotmap and only few hours ago i recalled something about a financial disaster.

Bad luck guys that spy. We need to know where Iron is and to be successful in this objective. Before next player takes in charge, possibly. If Shaan can and there're no complaints, i suggest he completes the task. Unless someone can play quickly until that objective is completed. We need another spy, just in case.

 

[BSPollux]

Shaandore you are are well prepared to play a few more turns and noone blames you for anything.

 

[ZPV]

I think we should be able to steal IW next turn, since there's now -20% for trade routes.

 

[Shaandore]

Alright guys I will do it.

pre-PPP thoughts: where do we put the settler? I think that settling the horse city is the only place we should consider, or alternatively we put a city on the big island. There is nice food there, but is it worth the hassle?

@ZPV: from the costs I think it won't be available next turn, but 2 turns from now maybe...

 

[ZPV]

btw, do trade Writing for Sailing. The extra few coins will help immediately.

 

[Shaandore]

Will we get any trade routes from that? Ramesses TRs will not be available (on the east we have the barb city, and Ramesses hasn't settled on the south coast yet), and we are already connected to Brennus.

Regardless we should trade since we will have quite a few galleys around in no time, and we also need lighthouses.

What do you guys think about the settler?

 

[BLubmuz]

Will we gat any trade routes from that? Ramesses TRs will not be available (on the east we have the barb city, and Ramesses hasn't settled on the south coast yet), and we are already connected to Brennus.

Regardless we should trade since we will have quite a few galleys around in no time, and we also need lighthouses.

What do you guys think about the settler?

TR: i don't think we can have many more, since as you correctly say, the path to Egypt is blocked by the Barb city.
With Brennus we have already, because he gets it.

But if you want to send the settler on the island, since he cannot swim, you need a galley. I'd say you need also at least 2 warriors, which must arrive before the settler.

Then, the overseas TRs will be great.

That said, i think you can go for the horse city and we can plan an island city next.
Barns seem to settle our chosen spots. That can be good if we find metals and if Brennus or Ramesses do not take them first. Like he did for the corn spot. I said that settling S was a priority, but sometimes i feel like i talk to the wind.

 

[ZPV]

Hmm. Good point that we've already got the routes to Brennus. However, he gives us access to the west coast, so we will also get a connection to Ramesses. Brennus can give us 4 of our possible 5 trade routes, so the immediate benefit is not as great as I thought, but it'll definitely be worth it when Currency comes in in about 6 turns.