SGOTM 16 - Fifth Element

BLubmuz · Nov 6, 2012

ZPV said:
The farm is for Tours (which won't have a proper food resource for quite a while), not Orleans. It can't run an engineer on FP-cottages, and that is the only tile we can improve before settling it.

What are your plans to build a spy?
Tech trading? Research after Alphabet?
Presumably it's 0% until the academy is in, then 100% research.

I really forgot that, but i will recover

ZPV said:
Recommendations for the next player:
The Settler can go 1NW this turn, and then settle N next turn. That way the marked square is spawnbusted by the settler, freeing Warrior 1 to move onto the forest hill.
The second northern warrior should not leave our borders this turn. Combined with the settler, that will cost us 1 in unit supply costs.
The Worker at Orleans has a part-farm to finish - shared by Orleans and the new city.

Your questions:
I can't have Alpha finished in my TS, thus the spy is not a problem of mine. That will be built - possibly 2 in sequence - by next player. I'll try to have the forge + settler done in my TS.

I'll agree with your recommendations and will take them in account. Just don't expect i change the PPP, i'll do what you suggested.

@ Shaandore
- agree on slowbuild the settler, the forge will help.
BTW, if i can chop, i want to put the hammers into buildings where we have the 100% benefit, like forges and libraries. Granaries, even if powerful with slavery, are more expensive for us and before we have enough food to recover we have time to slow build them, with the help of chopped forges.

- Sure, i'll build a worker at size 3, but i think that with the overflow from Oracle i can at least start a 2nd one before then. If i'm wrong, i'd like to put 1 turn on a warrior anyway before the worker... just to be safe.

- see above about gran. vs forges.

- ok, ok, i'll complete that farm first, we can convert it to a cottage in future

- about cottaging or farming the plains, i need to make a careful count of the tiles/food. working mines or not, Paris can't work many 1F+1H tiles with an excess food of 5 (6 after CS). And i think that for the early stage at least 1 mine needs to be worked.
If i have to build a cottage, and i'll do, i prefer non-riverside tiles. I know we lose 1c for now, but before CS arrives those cottages will be improved. It's not like we were financial, where riverside cottage gives 3c.

ZPV · Nov 6, 2012

A couple more things:
I don't understand why to favour non-river tiles for cottages. It seems to me like less commerce now and less commerce later.
Granaries and Forges cost us exactly the same amount (60h vs 120h with a 100% bonus) until OR at which point granaries are slightly cheaper. Fast growth is the most important thing for a new city.
I do expect you to finish Alphabet within 20 turns. If that's not feasible then we need to look at what's going wrong with our tech rate.

Shaandore · Nov 7, 2012

ZPV said:
I do expect you to finish Alphabet within 20 turns. If that's not feasible then we need to look at what's going wrong with our tech rate.

This is the thing that worries me the most. How will the settling of Tours affect our bpt? We are at a stage where every :commerce:

counts.

BLubmuz · Nov 7, 2012

OK, TS played.

Nothing relevant, aside the fact that i met Ramesses on t.70, SW of Brennus.
The 3rd city is Lyons, not Tours, the 4th is Rheims. Alpha arrived right now just in time for Paris completing its granary after the forge and the settler for Rheims and i started a spy.

Ramesses got IW, Brennus is just started researching it.
Ramesses is the Buddhist founder and Bibracte is the holy city of Hindu and Judaism.
Brennus sent sistematically missionaries to spread Hindu and our early 3 cities are Hindu. Now i can see a Jew missionary on route.

In the IBT after Alpha was researched, Ramesses popped asking to trade writing for AH.
I've tried to negotiate for hunting too, but no way, so i accepted.

Now Brennus lacks PH, so we can trade for it (already checked, he's willing to trade).

The warrior in the NW arrived on a ice tile and found a barb warrior. He survived to the attack with 3 XP. Then, the one in the SW found an archer, but was on a jungled hill, so survived with 2 XP.

Just started Mathematics, but not a beaker in it.
I've put the 2nd chop for Lyons on a Library. We can change production next turn to anything else.

The GS was born in Paris (not a surprose, really) and the Academy was immediately built.

In the last IBT Confu was founded IADL.

The save is uploaded, the game log:

Spoiler :

And the autolog (more interesting and readable)

Spoiler :

I managed to not build roads, if not the one i've just completed to Rheims

ZPV · Nov 7, 2012

Well played, Blubmuz!

Here are some screenshots of the land:

Spoiler :

BLubmuz · Nov 7, 2012

Thank you ZPV, and thank you for the screenies too. I was too nervous because i wasn't using my style, but i know it's better in this way. Just, please, put a separator between them, in this way they are confusing.

You have surely noticed that Brennus has copper in his BFC, riverside... great city, Bibracte, provided we survive long enough to take it. Good city Vienne too, on the coast.
He settled a 3rd city around turn 75, should be SW of Bibracte.

Egypt is not exactly S of Brennus, it seems to be W of him, with some choke point.

I think that soon Brennus will ask to adopt Hindu, i think we must accept. It's a benefit for happiness, after all, we're already to the cap in all our cities but Rheims, of course.

There're a lot of calendar resources in the south: Sugar, spices amd more gems. And the silk we have in our lands.

I marked as a possible city the 2nd gem, there's corn in BFC. I also think that we must settle somewhere along the river, maybe SW of the corner. I think is time for a new dotmap and to define a settling strategy. You know you can use Alt+x to make them easily, without the need to use screenies and a graphic editor?

ZPV · Nov 7, 2012

Thoughts for the next turnset:
> We should revolt to Hinduism. The extra happiness is a godsend.
> We need to research Fishing now.
> Orleans should probably whip a worker, then continue with the forge.
> We should also trade or give Priesthood to Brennus - that way Monarchy will be cheaper for him, and we'll be able to trade for it sooner. Withholding Writing (unless he starts researching it) limits his options in the top half of the tech tree.
> We should not trade for Hunting. Brennus has a very low WFYABTA limit. I think, once the Pyramids are built, he'll trade us Masonry, and then we can look at Monotheism. It would be nice if our next civic revolt were into Org Rel (both neighbours' favourite civic) and Hered Rule.
> The natural thing for Paris to do, for me, is grow to size 6, investing 5 or fewer hammers in a Hindu Temple, then whip it for 3 pop, overflowing into and just about completing a spy. Then it's free to grow on commerce tiles.

ZPV · Nov 7, 2012

BLubmuz said:
Thank you ZPV, and thank you for the screenies too. I was too nervous because i wasn't using my style, but i know it's better in this way. Just, please, put a separator between them, in this way they are confusing.

You're welcome.

Done.

You have surely noticed that Brennus has copper in his BFC, riverside... great city, Bibracte, provided we survive long enough to take it. Good city Vienne too, on the coast.
He settled a 3rd city around turn 75, should be SW of Bibracte.

Bibracte and Vienne are very nice. The third city... less so. :lol:

With Stone and all that production, I rather hope he builds The Pyramids for us.
I suspect a mounted war will work better than a siege war for him, because those key interior cities are not on hills, and we will (when the time comes) be able to move very quickly from one city to the next, without losing a large part of our stack to guerilla longbows.

Egypt is not exactly S of Brennus, it seems to be W of him, with some choke point.

I think that soon Brennus will ask to adopt Hindu, i think we must accept. It's a benefit for happiness, after all, we're already to the cap in all our cities but Rheims, of course.

I think we can wait a little bit, by whipping our cities, etc, but the happiness is more important than the diplo boost so if Brennus doesn't oblige I think we'll have to revolt anyway.

There're a lot of calendar resources in the south: Sugar, spices amd more gems. And the silk we have in our lands.

Incense too. I think hooking up the convenient ones will be one of our next priorities.

I marked as a possible city the 2nd gem, there's corn in BFC. I also think that we must settle somewhere along the river, maybe SW of the corner. I think is time for a new dotmap and to define a settling strategy. You know you can use Alt+x to make them easily, without the need to use screenies and a graphic editor?

Our dotmap is going to look ugly. We have plenty of resources though, so we should be able to extract quite good value.
Yeah, Alt+X is very convenient. I just happen to like the old-fashioned way with a graphic editor, like I like paper maps instead of only using satnav. It gives me space to think, somehow.

Shaandore · Nov 8, 2012

Well played, Blubmuz!

I really like our land. We need to be careful with settling though. The jungle area has nice potential, where we need to block Brennus, and do it while maintaining a good research rate. We need to be very careful with settling the spots near Bibracte, they would be a huge drain on our economy at the moment.

The next city of Brennus will be horse-pig-corn, so we shouldn't plan on getting any of those.

Problem is, I don't think we will be able to do a HA war, so we either go with trebs, or we wait until cuirs.

ZPV · Nov 8, 2012

Shaandore said:
Problem is, I don't think we will be able to do a HA war, so we either go with trebs, or we wait until cuirs.

Yeah, he's too far away to rush in the Classical age.
Knights are the other option - since it's only Emperor there's a window of opportunity before Engineering ramps up the costs, and they're more technologically convenient than Cuirs.
Catapults work well in that window too - we'll just need to build a proper stack, regardless of which route we take, and we should be fine.

BLubmuz · Nov 8, 2012

ZPV said:
Yeah, he's too far away to rush in the Classical age.
Knights are the other option - since it's only Emperor there's a window of opportunity before Engineering ramps up the costs, and they're more technologically convenient than Cuirs.
Catapults work well in that window too - we'll just need to build a proper stack, regardless of which route we take, and we should be fine.

Cuirs, knights, what have you smoked?
A good number of cats backed by few axes is all we need. A few chariot for field actions, that's all.
In the last SG i appreciated the power of a stack of over 10 cats... nothing can resist, not protective LBs, nothing. Provided we have metal... cats archers and chariots are not exactly my best choice.

The soon we expand at the expenses of Brennus, the better. With an eye to a very possible Egyptian backstab. Our next target, in any case.

Growth is power!

And power is needed to grow.

BLubmuz · Nov 8, 2012

There's a reason why i'd like to give PH to Brennus ASAP, regardless of the tech we can obtain. His cheap temples. He did not built any wonder and temples will surely help him to pop a GP. We need 3 Shrines, remember.

Folket · Nov 8, 2012

Why don't we just gift him the tech then?

ZPV · Nov 8, 2012

BLubmuz said:
Cuirs, knights, what have you smoked?
A good number of cats backed by few axes is all we need. A few chariot for field actions, that's all.
In the last SG i appreciated the power of a stack of over 10 cats... nothing can resist, not protective LBs, nothing. Provided we have metal... cats archers and chariots are not exactly my best choice.

The soon we expand at the expenses of Brennus, the better. With an eye to a very possible Egyptian backstab. Our next target, in any case.

Growth is power!

And power is needed to grow.

It's not a question of whether we can win the war, it's a question of whether we can/should afford his cities - they won't help us get to the Industrial Age, and a stack of cats will use up all of our production and research potential - so we shouldn't capture them too long before the Industrial Age; better instead to expand peacefully and develop him as a trading partner.

btw, Ramesses should pop us at least one, possibly two shrines.

unclethrill · Nov 8, 2012

Great Job BLubmuz.

Sorry I have not been much help so far. I had hoped that once we got through the initial push on our renovations, I would have more free time to contribute. Unfortunately, I got some less than good news on the job front and as such need to spend some time cleaning up my resume ASAP. So please move past me to the next in the rotation and hopefully some miracle will allow me to be more active in the near future.

Again sorry but RL sucks sometimes.

BLubmuz · Nov 8, 2012

unclethrill said:
(...)Again sorry but RL sucks sometimes.

As usual

OK guys, UT needs to skip, so Shaandore is up, provided he doesn't have problems.

Shaan, please chime in and tell us something.

In any case i think it's better to define a strategy until, say, Education:

Cities, sites, war or peace, research, dotmaps, builds... anything. We have successfully completed the first step, now we must capitalize.

On a last note, 12 days to go, so better move (yeah, i know we spent too much time until now, but better don't cry on spilt milk, right?)

BSPollux · Nov 8, 2012

BLubmuz said:
better don't cry on spilt milk, right?

believe it or not: thats MY motto

ever since i learned it from Gordon Shumway

Shaandore · Nov 9, 2012

I'm quite busy right now. I will have time to open the game and make a PPP tomorrow night, and if we come to a consensus in 24 hours, then start playing on sunday.

If that pace is too slow, feel free to skip me.

My overall plan:
-build more cottages for Paris and work them
-make a settling plan, and settle cities depending on research power
-backfill techs by trading PH
-hook up horses, build a chariot
-build 2 spies and steal IW from Brennus
-adopt Hinduism, and when available, switch to OrgReligion

I need advice on tech path. What are the objectives? If we want treb/mace or knights war, we need to plan for that now. Or we could start running for lib on economy techs, while backfilling. Do we want a detour? (anything from Aesth line? Music perhaps? How will we get those legendary cities?)

Is there a wonder that we should build?

BLubmuz · Nov 9, 2012

Shaan, your timing is OK and we can even need a delay, maybe.

Please anyone post a dotmap so after decided the spots we can decide the timing.

I'll post my strategy later... but i can foresee harsh discussions with ZPV. I tend to be aggressive early, the slow down in research is usually recovered with interests.

Folket · Nov 9, 2012

I would rather see a strategi where we reach 100 bpt before we go offensive. I find that later wars are cheap and fast.

SGOTM 16 - Fifth Element

HoF Quattromaster

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HoF Quattromaster

Short for ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF

Attachments

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Short for ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF

another mathematician

Short for ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF

HoF Quattromaster

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Deity

Short for ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF

Why am I up right now?

HoF Quattromaster

Deity

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