SGOTM 17 - Fifth Element

[BLubmuz]

A longbowman attacked out of Hades. We should have enougbh to defeat the two remaining and a spearman that appeared.

Well done Folket
So you was right about Aachen at last. Good! i see our GM on route for Japan. Very good!

So we have a GE and a GS. Let's see if we can use the GE for something great.

Our economy is still in bad shape, but i think this is due to the big number of units outside borders... Hammer. Speaking of which, yes i think we can do it now. 2 WEs to start (they have only 0.04% chances but they will do some damage), then cats should be effective treb last, then swords.

In any case we have the techs we need to start a war. But we really need to move fast or we face rifles. Muskets are manageable, but rifles...

OK, it's up to UT to take that pain in the axe of a barb city. And probably also to start the fireworks with Khmer.

Looking at the graphs we seem to be in decent shape now. I think we must squeeze anything from our cities to have a big number of units in Goldfoot and many on route to destroy Khmer quickly. I think that after Angkor we need to have 2 stacks, 1 for the South, 1 for the coast. But let's see what our field commander thinks.

edit: wow, 1000th post on this thread.

 

[Folket]

I think 5 cats first then WE, trebs, cats, swordmen in that order is the best option.

We should probably simulate the battle first, failing the attack would be a disaster.

 

[BLubmuz]

I think 5 cats first then WE, trebs, cats, swordmen in that order is the best option.

We should probably simulate the battle first, failing the attack would be a disaster.

UT is great in doing so, i have no worries.

 

[unclethrill]

Okay so I'll take it now. I have 10 hours at work to get a PPP together and hopefully can play tomorrow night.

 

[Shaandore]

Wow. away for 1-2 days and already a lot of progress. Also some good news

About Hades: suiciding against LBs is a bad play if we have trebs. The swords should just sit aoround until some modern units come to help. Why kill them now if they can be useful later for cleaning weak defenders?

We want to have minimal losses in the wars. We need to keep about 50%-50% siege-non-siege ratio in each big stack. We need a lots of trebs to be able to bombard in 1 turn and attack in the next. That will mean producing much more siege than other units in the long run, but that is okay. We should be looking at a fastest possible war on the south, and 3-4 trebs + 3-4 landschnekts should be able to take Hades easily.

We definitely need more spies. Saving some EP for revolts is very important in medieval wars.

Folket's set was/is a great economic burst with the Golden age and great people. The next set should be a fast preparation and DoW on Sury. It will be a logistical nightmare, but I'm confident that unclethrill can handle it

Hopefully I can take a look at the save tomorrow, and post some micro observations.

Techwise Feud->Guilds->Banking looks good.

 

[BLubmuz]

About Hades: suiciding against LBs is a bad play if we have trebs. The swords should just sit aoround until some modern units come to help. Why kill them now if they can be useful later for cleaning weak defenders?

Techwise Feud->Guilds->Banking looks good.

Sure, pity we came out of the GAge and we must wait to revolt to Merc. If we were confident to arrive to banking we could have delayed the GAge by 1-2 turns. Hindsight...

About your suggestions for Hammer, it's not a normal city to take: it's alone, it's heavily worldbuildered (there's even a bunker there) and ATM it has only 3 units. It has good and well improved land, but firstly it's the door to contact or at least to see where an AI is. We already payed a price in terms of maintenance and in terms of units distracted by what should be our main front. Let's close this chapter now, when we have enough units and they are relatively weak.

Then, trebs are painfully slow in taking down defences in cities with castles. We must just reduce them - or use spies - then sacrifice 2 cats first (cheaper) then probably 1-2 trebs and finally reduce all the defenders to dust with some 6-8 more trebs. The tactic i described few days ago worked well, but i was playing as Byzantium and i guarantee that Cataphracts are a great UU

 

[unclethrill]

I'm confident that I can take Hammer with the current units plus 1 or two more for good measure but I will lose most of them. Seeing that we can get units past the city to explore I'm a bit torn. We can take the city, losing most of those units, have another city that has to be supported on our economy but have a second city on the other side of the water to produce units. Or we can just leave some of our troops around the city and use the majority of them to explore as fast as possible. Taking the city at a later date hen we have units hat can just stomp the Barbs. Then we pay no upkeep on the city but we also still have to ferry all our unis across the water to go west.

I'm open to suggestions.

Looks like a cross post with BL.

 

[BLubmuz]

I'm confident that I can take Hammer with the current units plus 1 or two more for good measure but I will lose most of them. Seeing that we can get units past the city to explore I'm a bit torn. We can take the city, losing most of those units, have another city that has to be supported on our economy but have a second city on the other side of the water to produce units. Or we can just leave some of our troops around the city and use the majority of them to explore as fast as possible. Taking the city at a later date hen we have units hat can just stomp the Barbs. Then we pay no upkeep on the city but we also still have to ferry all our unis across the water to go west.

I'm open to suggestions.

Looks like a cross post with BL.

If you're confident, do it!
We're paying far more in maintaining the units around the city than we can pay for the city itself. But you must do it immediately (only if you are confident) or we risk to face another LB. The trick is that with only 2 we can do it, with 3 we're toasted.

2 small stacks of a WE and an axe are enough to map all the land, no need for more.
It has many mature cottages and good production to pay for itself quickly.

I suggest this: draft a PPP but in the meantime move the GM to map Japan before the trade mission and - after all your usual tests - take that city.

Then we discuss and refine your plan. You must be in condition to start the war with Sury and keep our coastal cities safe.

There're other good reasons to take the Hammer:
- The more population we have, the bigger an army we can maintain
- we can unload the units coming from Anvil to Hammer and we gain 1 move
- moving the units between those cities doesn't cost in "away maintenance"
- we can improve that fish we need for health
- the units there need a very long trip before being used, so better use them and cease to pay maintenance and away costs

Later, if you find something interesting W of the Hades, you can move there a worker or two to road W.

Good night

 

[unclethrill]

Research: Banking -> Paper (bulb)-> Education

GP: GM continue to Japan, explore, trade mission in Kyoto
GS bulb paper
GE -- Open to ideas. We could speed up Globe or something else. Make suggestions

Load SW and Chariot in Anvil on Galley and attack Hammer on next turn. Attacking with all cats and treb then WE then SW then Axe

Use General with the Chariot to make a medic

Can use some ideas for the workers

Cities:
Augsberg: Globe
Nur: Grocer -> Bank
Mainz: LK-> Bank
Ulm: Treb->Bank
Bridge: Castle
DJenne: Kn->Treb-> Treb
Timb: Kn->Bank
Gao: Kn (1 turn)->Bank (Whip as possible)
Goldfoot: Gran->RatH
Flo: Mon-> Treb-> Treb->Kn
Nian: Forge
Kumb: Lib
Walata: Barracks->Bank
Pisa: Rath->Forge
Anvil: Rath
Lux: Gran
Strasb: Gran
Aachen: Trireme->LK->LK->LK
Prague: Kn-> Treb-> Treb-> Treb
Vienna: Grocer-> Bank

Plan to play until Education is in. With the Bulb it will be ~T170.
I'll funnel as many troops to Goldfoot as possible. We should have enough to roll Sury (at least to start it) by T170.
My second half will be finishing him off.

 

[Folket]

I think we are better of part bulbing education instead of bulbing paper. We get more beakers out of our GS that way.

If we can get Nationalism the GE could rush the Taj Mahal.

Hades has mature cottages. I do not think it will be a drain on our economy.

 

[Shaandore]

It certainly looks like we will be finishing this game with post-gunpowder units. I would still try to conquer as many AIs as we can with medieval. I think that suiciding siege against non-bombarded cities is a bad play, especially since we have a huge production pool, enough to make ~15 trebs for our main stack. Of course some old cats can be suicided for faster movement, but spending 120-150 hammers per city for suicide units is too expensive.

I agree with Folket that the GS should be saved for Edu bulb. This way we get more beakers.

I would use the engineer for Globe. As soon as Globe is up, we get a unit every 2nd turn for free. Having this before starting the war will be very good. Besides I can't think of any wonder that we can get for sure (IMO Taj is in danger) and would be nearly as useful.

 

[BLubmuz]

I think we are better of part bulbing education instead of bulbing paper. We get more beakers out of our GS that way.
Absolutely. Provided we're interested in it
If we can get Nationalism the GE could rush the Taj Mahal.
I think Qin is already building it

Hades has mature cottages. I do not think it will be a drain on our economy.

Good to see we agree on Hammer.

Then, UT: Why all those banks? are we planning to build Wall Street soon ? In any case we need military now, if we really want economic buildings we're better off with grocers, at least in the bigger cities: they give some health and we can run merchants while in slavery. If the game needs to ramp up the tech tree we can consider to build enough banks for WS, provided we want to build it.
About techs: gunpowder - chem - steel is the way to go. Edu can help with unis in the main commerce cities and since we have a GS we can consider to insert it. Or to prioritize it. Better discuss this.

If we're forced to build paras to take an AI, it's almost a space race. Basically we need to fill all the tech tree until flight and Fascism.

I was duped by many mods where with combustion you can break ice. In the base BtS, ice can be only passed by subs, which at best can transport explorers and such (just verified in WB, to be 100% sure).

For now, see that 2 AIs aren't met by anyone, we must assume that at least 1 of them is isolated by mountains or ice or both. So probably we need Edu. Then, if the Lib race is still doable we can try for Astro.

 

[BLubmuz]

It certainly looks like we will be finishing this game with post-gunpowder units. I would still try to conquer as many AIs as we can with medieval. I think that suiciding siege against non-bombarded cities is a bad play, especially since we have a huge production pool, enough to make ~15 trebs for our main stack. Of course some old cats can be suicided for faster movement, but spending 120-150 hammers per city for suicide units is too expensive.

Hades Hammer is an exception because of the bunker. But even with a treb you can reduce the defences by 4%, so you need 25 rounds to arrive to 0. Cannons can do it quickly, 12% because they ignore walls and such. To arrive around 50% you still need 12-13 rounds. I think that spies are the only chance to save hammers. But we must invest in espionage at the expenses of research.

I agree with Folket that the GS should be saved for Edu bulb. This way we get more beakers.
Absolutely
I would use the engineer for Globe. As soon as Globe is up, we get a unit every 2nd turn for free. Having this before starting the war will be very good. Besides I can't think of any wonder that we can get for sure (IMO Taj is in danger) and would be nearly as useful.

A GE for the Globe? Ulm is the best candidate, but it needs 30 turns unless we build some workshop. It doesn't have a single hammer. But maybe we can build cheap units for 1 pop to have the hammers overflow into it and build some ws. Now with guilds they are decent. OTOH i must admit that aside a GAge we don't have use for a GE... SoL maybe. I consider the Taj already lost.

 

[Shaandore]

15 trebs should be able to take down up to 60% defense with castle. (some can get bombard promo). The 60%+cities will be bombarded for a couple more turns or revolted with a spy. (and those are the places where we want to suicide our old cats)

SoL is far away, i hope we will finish the game before that. Globe now is much stronger (in opportunity cost) than waiting around for anything else. Unless we want to bulb gunpowder, and take a shot at libbing Military tradition. In that case we should try and pump some wealth into research so we get there in time.

But for now my vote goes to spending the Engineer on the Globe. Oh, and our globe city is Augsburg according to plans. It has more food too.


About cannons, they won't be useful for us. What we need to mop up in the end we should do it with cuirs, or worst case cavs. They are so much faster than anything else, I can't see how any 1-mover could beat them when warring in the southwest corner.

 

[BLubmuz]

15 trebs should be able to take down up to 60% defense with castle. (some can get bombard promo). The 60%+cities will be bombarded for a couple more turns or revolted with a spy. (and those are the places where we want to suicide our old cats)
But then you need at least 5 more for collateral and more to replace the suicided.
The cost in hammers and maintenance is terrible!
SoL is far away, i hope we will finish the game before that. Globe now is much stronger (in opportunity cost) than waiting around for anything else. Unless we want to bulb gunpowder, and take a shot at libbing Military tradition. In that case we should try and pump some wealth into research so we get there in time.

But for now my vote goes to spending the Engineer on the Globe. Oh, and our globe city is Augsburg according to plans. It has more food too.
OK, globe in Augsburg it is
The distance from the front is roughly the same, it already has a theatre and the GE is there. Sold!


About cannons, they won't be useful for us. What we need to mop up in the end we should do it with cuirs, or worst case cavs. They are so much faster than anything else, I can't see how any 1-mover could beat them when warring in the southwest corner.

Cannons are always useful. We must wait to see what our GM discovers, but i think that speed is not important. Japan should be small and in any case is backwards. If we can skip MT is a net gain. The real challenge will be Qin: he's protective and he's more advanced than us. Then, all his cities have walls and many a castle. This is true for Sury too, but he's not protective. And we're close to declare on him.

At this point, i think that Qin will declare on us, he's buddy-buddy with Sury. Have you noticed that they have the same techs? They surely are trading each other, no matter the differenc in beakers. Otherwise they can't be so advanced.

 

[unclethrill]

Good to see we agree on Hammer.

Then, UT: Why all those banks? are we planning to build Wall Street soon ? In any case we need military now, if we really want economic buildings we're better off with grocers, at least in the bigger cities: they give some health and we can run merchants while in slavery. If the game needs to ramp up the tech tree we can consider to build enough banks for WS, provided we want to build it.
About techs: gunpowder - chem - steel is the way to go. Edu can help with unis in the main commerce cities and since we have a GS we can consider to insert it. Or to prioritize it. Better discuss this.

If we're forced to build paras to take an AI, it's almost a space race. Basically we need to fill all the tech tree until flight and Fascism.

I was duped by many mods where with combustion you can break ice. In the base BtS, ice can be only passed by subs, which at best can transport explorers and such (just verified in WB, to be 100% sure).

For now, see that 2 AIs aren't met by anyone, we must assume that at least 1 of them is isolated by mountains or ice or both. So probably we need Edu. Then, if the Lib race is still doable we can try for Astro.

We will build WS eventually, I'm sure. Our economy is at a 20-30% break even point. I plan to build banks in the cities where the return on investment is immediate. All of those banks will get us up to 50-60% break even point at least. I have several grocers first. but I hold firm on the need for the banks. They won't slow the war effort; in fact they will allow it to not stall. I will have us ready to DoW by T170-T173, when I bring Edu in. With the banks we should be able to forge right on through china.

 

[unclethrill]

It certainly looks like we will be finishing this game with post-gunpowder units. I would still try to conquer as many AIs as we can with medieval. I think that suiciding siege against non-bombarded cities is a bad play, especially since we have a huge production pool, enough to make ~15 trebs for our main stack. Of course some old cats can be suicided for faster movement, but spending 120-150 hammers per city for suicide units is too expensive.

I agree with Folket that the GS should be saved for Edu bulb. This way we get more beakers.

I would use the engineer for Globe. As soon as Globe is up, we get a unit every 2nd turn for free. Having this before starting the war will be very good. Besides I can't think of any wonder that we can get for sure (IMO Taj is in danger) and would be nearly as useful.

Agreed that we need to use the trebs to take down defenses but we also need a couple cats per city to do collateral damage.

I agree on the Edu bulb. Paper is easier because he can immediately bulb all of it but Edu make more sense with the ability to gain all possible beakers.

 

[unclethrill]

A GE for the Globe? Ulm is the best candidate, but it needs 30 turns unless we build some workshop. It doesn't have a single hammer. But maybe we can build cheap units for 1 pop to have the hammers overflow into it and build some ws. Now with guilds they are decent. OTOH i must admit that aside a GAge we don't have use for a GE... SoL maybe. I consider the Taj already lost.

Globe is my choice too.

 

[unclethrill]

Research: Banking -> Paper -> Education (Bulb Part). I think we still have a chance at Lib but I think the Edu route is best for us for the Universities.

GP: GM continue to Japan, explore, trade mission in Kyoto
GS bulb Edu
GE -- Globe

Load SW and Chariot in Anvil on Galley and attack Hammer on next turn.
Attacking with all cats and treb for collateral damage. Then WEs then SWs then Axe.

Sword and Axe in Barb land will explore west.

Use General with the Chariot to make a medic

Can use some ideas for the workers

Cities:
Augsberg: Globe -> Kn->Cat->Treb
Nur: Grocer -> Bank
Mainz: LK-> Bank
Ulm: Treb->Bank
Bridge: Castle
DJenne: Kn->Treb-> Treb
Timb: Kn->Bank
Gao: Kn (1 turn)->Bank (Whip as possible)
Goldfoot: Gran->RatH
Flo: Mon-> Treb-> Treb->Kn
Nian: Forge
Kumb: Lib
Walata: Barracks->Bank
Pisa: Rath->Forge
Anvil: Rath
Lux: Gran
Strasb: Gran
Aachen: Trireme->LK->LK->LK
Prague: Kn-> Treb-> Treb-> Treb
Vienna: Grocer-> Bank

Plan to play until Education is in. With the Bulb it will be ~T170.
I'll funnel as many troops to Goldfoot as possible. We should have enough to roll Sury (at least to start it) by T170.
My second half will be finishing him off.


I still need to know what the group's plan for the workers should be. I'm much better with military micro than worker micro (actually by this point in my games I get bored with all the workers and just automate them usually)

 

[BLubmuz]

We will build WS eventually, I'm sure. Our economy is at a 20-30% break even point. I plan to build banks in the cities where the return on investment is immediate. All of those banks will get us up to 50-60% break even point at least. I have several grocers first. but I hold firm on the need for the banks. They won't slow the war effort; in fact they will allow it to not stall. I will have us ready to DoW by T170-T173, when I bring Edu in. With the banks we should be able to forge right on through china.

Corporations is in the path for Fascism, so if we need paras...

I've collected a bunch of blames to buils 2 markets, now it's your turn to collect some for the banks

Anyway, i think grocers are more fitting: they are cheaper, they give health and we can hire merchants.

Banks can be built later. Maybe 1 in Vienna for now. But the absolute priority are units.
After Edu we can try the Economics race if we have a chance or GP if we don't.

But you break after Edu, so there's time for that.

While we refine your PPP, take that damn barb city and move the GM.

Which and how many units do you plan to have to Goldfoot by your break? 10 trebs are mandatory, i think and don't forget to keep many defenders in Goldfoot.