SGOTM 17 - Fifth Element

[Shaandore]

We only keep the good cities:
- it has lots of cottages
- it has key wonders/shrine
- it has strategic importance (access to a body of water, resource that we don't have)
- it has great production (>30 hpt) <- very unlikely on this map

After taking these into account, i think at least half of the cities will get razed, so we won't really have problems with reaching dom limit until the very end.

EDIT: towards the end, we raze all cities obviously. Meaning everything that we conquer in the last 15-20 turns. Because they wouldn't be able to contribute anyway.

 

[BLubmuz]

We only keep the good cities:
- it has lots of cottages
- it has key wonders/shrine
- it has strategic importance (access to a body of water, resource that we don't have)
- it has great production (>30 hpt) <- very unlikely on this map

After taking these into account, i think at least half of the cities will get razed, so we won't really have problems with reaching dom limit until the very end.

EDIT: towards the end, we raze all cities obviously. Meaning everything that we conquer in the last 15-20 turns. Because they wouldn't be able to contribute anyway.

The principle is correct, but we need to consider the map. And to avoid barb cities spawn between our cities, or in the case of Khmer, to have Qin resettle cities we raze. I'd add to your points - good cities with big overlap. Let me see what i find:
Khmer
Angkor Wat: can be razed, but it changes little for dom, has overlap with Goldfoot
Angkor Thom: lot of cottages and food, keep
Yasoda: lot of wonders, shrine and cottages, keep
Hari: AP and good production
Nagara: Incense, keep
Isva: strategic, on the coast, keep
Raja: shrine, great production, keep
We need also to consider that raze any Buddhist city will diminish the value of the Shrine. THe Christian Shrine is not worth much, but the city is good and on Chinese borders. Keep all, in the end.

China
Xian: good city, keep
Chengdu: raze even if decent.
Nanjing: sugar, keep
Shangai: Chiken pizza, but we really risk a barb city there. keep
Beijing: Notre Dame, cottages, keep
Guangzhou: can be razed, but has the only visible wheat, which means +2H in any city and is on 4th borders of Beijing
Hangzhou: 2 gems, strategic for Japan

Japan
Unknown: we can assume to keep at least the Westernmost city to have access to the SW corner and which probably is Kyoto.

Russia
we can try to keep the 3 cities along the river: Yaro for sure, then Moscow and StPeter.
Yecat: raze
1 between Rostov and Novgorod.

Obviously we need to know how Japan is and how the access to the SW corner is before to decide. The only Jap city we can partially see looks a raze.

Lastly, remember that we need units to spawnbust where we raze.

Wrong decisions on this matter can cause an unpleasent game over. Better be careful.

BTW, UT can you set the level of the dom alert to 50% so we can see the tiles count?

 

[unclethrill]

Update:

T169 Edu in. Using PP as placeholder. No one else has Edu.

Met last AI. Churchill. Looks to be surrounded by Ice (at least partially)


GM is is Kyoto and ready to get 1300 Gold

Units in Hammer: Treb, WE, XBow, LB, SW(2), Ax, Char (2, 1 is General).
Barb MM are moving around.

GoldFoot: Units
In GF: Treb(2), Cap(4), KN(2), WE(3), HA(1), LK (1), SW(1), Ax(2), Char(2, 1 General), Arch (1).
1 NE of GF: KN(1), Treb(1)
In AW: Char (1)
On Boat in route: KN(2), Treb(1), Xbow(1)
Built and waiting for transport: Treb(4), Cap, Xbow, LB

So I'll try to get a new PPP up tomorrow night. Please look at save and post some suggested plans so we can keep moving.

 

[BLubmuz]

I've sent something. please read it and confirm

1) T169 Edu in. Using PP as placeholder. No one else has Edu.

2) Met last AI. Churchill. Looks to be surrounded by Ice (at least partially)

3) GM is is Kyoto and ready to get 1300 Gold

1) So Lib is at hand. I say Econ for the GM. We can use it for a GAge or bulb PP. Do you remember the "nuclear war" game?

2) See if there's something to trade. If we manage to get his WM, great! Anything but Edu.

3) Use the GM to map Japan: is our only chance to do this. I think any city is worth the same amount of gold.

Seen your list of units in GF i doubt you can start the war in less than 4-5 turns.
I also see a painful lack of melee. We need maces (more) and LK (less), at least already loaded on ships.

But if we delay the war by few turns and manage to get Lib it is worth. Remember that a GPro can bulb it, so watch if any is born. Build whealth or research, but we must win this race.

 

[Folket]

I had expected us to get Japan to Pleased soon but it seems like we do not get bonus for mercantilism when he does not run it.

Next I think we should lib PP. Economics disables our castles and we do not want to run free market. We can wait with this until we have constitution and then go on to corporations for the wall street.

I see our spy got caught. We should get more of them.

I like getting liberalism now so we may trade away education before the war.

I think we may get a lot more from our GM in Beijing as it is size 19. But then money now or exploring is also good.

Since we seem to need paratroopers should we just go ahead and get oxford?

I would whip a grocer in Augberg to get some health.

Buy sugar from China.

 

[Folket]

Loading from Florence instead of Vienna is only 1 turn slower but will require a lot less galleys.

 

[Shaandore]

Looking at the situation Churchill might be completely separated, so the bottleneck to victory is flight. I still wouldn't give up on this, so going around the Ice with the GM is very important.

We should reconsider getting Oxford at this point.

As for lib tech, I think we can be much more ambitious with the GM waiting to get used, and nobody having Edu. We will see if some AI gets edu, and even after that we have a couple turns before we need to pop lib. Having econ as backup, we can set out for Chemistry, or even steel. Don't forget that the AIs don't really know each other, hence they can hardly trade, and we are about to attack the most advanced guy, and we can see the research of the 2nd most advanced.

I'll llook at the save tonight (I won't let RL prevent it ) and post some micro observations, as well as some ideas on lib techs.

 

[BLubmuz]

I had expected us to get Japan to Pleased soon but it seems like we do not get bonus for mercantilism when he does not run it.
Yes, the civics bonus works only if the AI is running it.
Next I think we should lib PP. Economics disables our castles and we do not want to run free market. We can wait with this until we have constitution and then go on to corporations for the wall street.
Yes, we prefer mercantilism even if without representation is a bit weak. But i can't see why to renounce to a GM which can bulb PP, conduct a trade mission or be used with another GP for a GAge for 2 castles. And mainly deny it to our opponents.
I see our spy got caught. We should get more of them.
sure
I like getting liberalism now so we may trade away education before the war.
i suspect many AI will have it, but it's another good reason
I think we may get a lot more from our GM in Beijing as it is size 19. But then money now or exploring is also good.
i've tried some test and any Jap city worth the same gold, 1300. Back to Beijijng is a long trip
Since we seem to need paratroopers should we just go ahead and get oxford?
We'll think to unis once our army will be ready or we finish to fight Sury with paratroopers
I would whip a grocer in Augberg to get some health.

Buy sugar from China.

I asked to whip a unit 1-2 turn to completion for that.

 

[BLubmuz]

Looking at the situation Churchill might be completely separated, so the bottleneck to victory is flight. I still wouldn't give up on this, so going around the Ice with the GM is very important.
I agree, is our only chance to have Japan mapped and to confirm paras are really needed. even if i think it's 99% sure
We should reconsider getting Oxford at this point.
as i answered to Folket, sure, but after we're OK with our army for Sury
As for lib tech, I think we can be much more ambitious with the GM waiting to get used, and nobody having Edu. We will see if some AI gets edu, and even after that we have a couple turns before we need to pop lib. Having econ as backup, we can set out for Chemistry, or even steel. Don't forget that the AIs don't really know each other, hence they can hardly trade, and we are about to attack the most advanced guy, and we can see the research of the 2nd most advanced.

I'll llook at the save tonight (I won't let RL prevent it ) and post some micro observations, as well as some ideas on lib techs.

There's the danger that an AI pop a GS or a GPro. We can try to research it to a fraction to completion and switch to GP for chem. But i still think that getting Econ form Lib is the stronger move.

 

[Folket]

I'm not worried about the AI unless they get education before us.

I'm still dubious about the economics GM. We spend 2600 beaker to get 1300 beakers and a tech that is negative value? Much better to get chemistry or steel. Perhaps we can even use our GM. That should ensure we get at least chemistry.

 

[unclethrill]

Partial PPP

Use GM to finish mapping Japan and looking at Ice wall of England.

Continue with worker tasks.

Finish getting units to GF to start war. Once all current units arrive in GF we will have:
8 Trebs, 5 Cats, 5 Kn, 3 WE, 1 HA, 1 LK, 2 XB, 1 LB, 1 SW, 2 Ax, 3 Char (1 General), 1 Arch.
So 13 Siege, 9 Mounted, 10 Ground (counting chars as ground), 1 Healer.

Slip a couple banks into the highest yield cities.

Whip/Build Several MM.

Try to work in a couple more spys. (don't need them until we DoW on China so they can wait a couple turns)

Workers will continue on what they are doing.

Research Lib to 1 turn, then GP

I would like to play another 5 turns or so tonight (in 6 hours or so) if everyone is okay with that. Please post a quick "Stop" if that is not okay.

 

[Shaandore]

I'll post a few comments in 2-3 hours, I'm looking at the save now. It would be great if you could hold off until then.

 

[unclethrill]

I'll post a few comments in 2-3 hours, I'm looking at the save now. It would be great if you could hold off until then.

No problem. Rather have good feedback than to rush my turns.

 

[BLubmuz]

No problem. Rather have good feedback than to rush my turns.

DId the units in Hammer fell asleep to let the archer pillage our pasture?
What are you waiting for?

Now, about Lib: we need 3 turns at full research to have it, but obviously we can't do it. so the turns are 9. Until the GM completes his mission, which is worth 1300, the gold to research 3 turns at full potential.

In other words: even if the GM completes the mission now we can't research another tech. So please let's discuss of what is doable not of dreams.
I've tried to set all our cities to produce whealth and we're still below 60% break even.
I really don't understand why we're so low despite 20 cottages+hamlets and 30 villages+towns and all the water tiles we're working for 3cpt, some 25. Not counting the various resources and the tiles with 1c. And the trade routes.
All our cities have a rathaus, but 6: the new ones and the 2 strategic.

About castles (2) our income from the 5th TR is now 3 cpt: 1 in Vienna and 2 in Bridge. It's the price to pay to run Mercantilism. Wthout Representation is not that great civic. But it's done and 21 more specialists will contribute in a way or another.

A GM can bulb some 55% of PP and a GS almost all. Mainz can have a GS in 12 turns if we hire 2 sci there. I think it's the reason why we built the NE, isn't it?

Or we can have Nationalism, but i see it weaker. By using Lib for Econ we:
a) deny a free tech to one of our opponents, which are already too advanced to my taste.
b) we have a weak free tech, but
c) we deny a GM to our opponents, which we can use for 3 things:
c1) Bulb PP (weak)
c2) Another trade mission to finish to map Japan if we decide to hurry the present one
c3) keep it for a Golden Age after we capture the MoM (my preferred use)

I propose this:
- run whealth in cities not building basic structures or military (should be 6)
- hire 2 sci in Mainz
- hire some merchant in some city, so we can research @ 40% +/- 2 break even.
- use the GM to map the westernmost part of Japan (3-4 turns should be enough) then use it for the mission
- once the mission is done, set research to 100% to Lib, get Econ, then build the planned structures.

On another topic, i think that the right place to load units is the Florence peninsula.

 

[Shaandore]

Before anything, I would like to propse a mini-set where you move the exploring sword to the west and the Gmerchant to the north to see if there is space around the ice . That should take 2 or 3 turns. In the meantime you can ship the army to goldfoot. I propose switching to lib now (we all agree on this).

At that point we can decide on oxford, invasion path, and next tech after lib.

on Lib:
I would like to point it out that Peter, Toku and Churchill are nowhere near getting lib. (Toku and Churchill are very backwards, Peter didn't meet anybody else, and he won't in the near future, so he will need to use his own research power). Sury will be busy with the war, so he is out of question too. He doesn't have Edu, so no problems there. Our only concern is Qin. But he has 7 turns left of democracy, and we can see his research. We will know the exact moment when he switches to Lib, but that won't happen in the next ~12 turns (he has to research Demo and Edu first, and he might even join the war that further slows him). Also note that AIs don't like researching Edu,so we have a good chance of no lib competition for the next ~20-25 turns (at which point we might invade Qin...)

In the meantime we get conquer money from the war, and our trade mission should be ready in 6 turns, so we can have lib almost done in 9 turns. Then we can research whatever we want, and switch back if we see Qin changing to lib to get Econ as backup plan.

Next post coming soon, with micro details for this miniset and beyond

 

[Folket]

Is there an other save somewhere? when I look no opponents have education. And education is quite expensive. I think we have 10 turns before we need to finish lib.

 

[BLubmuz]

Before anything, I would like to propse a mini-set where you move the exploring sword to the west and the Gmerchant to the north to see if there is space around the ice . That should take 2 or 3 turns. In the meantime you can ship the army to goldfoot. I propose switching to lib now (we all agree on this).
I agree, but we must follow my suggestions on how to set the cities to reach 40% at break even.
At that point we can decide on oxford, invasion path, and next tech after lib.
There's only the timing to decide. The Oxford will go in Vienna and the unis in our higher commerce cities, which i already identified few posts ago. But anyone can open the save and look on 2nd tab of F1 to confirm.
A note can be that with such a low break even we can't use well our research and so the OU. I continue to not understand what this game has.
I'd like to compare it with a game i just submitted for the new HoF record on Emperor/standard/epic Space as Louis: 17 cities, some of them yet without structures, 16 coastal with GLH, 3 gems + 1 gold mines, 5 dyes and only 17 cottages, at best villages, no colossus. I'm in 1170 AD and i took Astro from Lib in 1070 (good islands to settle and salons) and i'm researching GP @>50% break even with 11 CHs built. I could have used Lib probably for RR or AL, but i've found better to have soon my salons and can settle some islands. And to prepare a nice war of conquest towards Mehmed. This to say that i really don't understand why, despite our well matured cottages and our rathaus, we're in this tunnel. Even if i add our units maintenance, i can still be just below 50%
on Lib:
I would like to point it out that Peter, Toku and Churchill are nowhere near getting lib. (Toku and Churchill are very backwards, Peter didn't meet anybody else, and he won't in the near future, so he will need to use his own research power). Sury will be busy with the war, so he is out of question too. He doesn't have Edu, so no problems there. Our only concern is Qin. But he has 7 turns left of democracy, and we can see his research. We will know the exact moment when he switches to Lib, but that won't happen in the next ~12 turns (he has to research Demo and Edu first, and he might even join the war that further slows him). Also note that AIs don't like researching Edu,so we have a good chance of no lib competition for the next ~20-25 turns (at which point we might invade Qin...)

In the meantime we get conquer money from the war, and our trade mission should be ready in 6 turns, so we can have lib almost done in 9 turns. Then we can research whatever we want, and switch back if we see Qin changing to lib to get Econ as backup plan.

Next post coming soon, with micro details for this miniset and beyond

You seem to be a little optimistic, to say the least. Peter, despite being isolated is philosophical and can bulb a good part of Edu next turn for what we know. Then, despite being isolated, he's doing well in terms of techs, thus he has a good research potential.
Sury can also have Edu in few turns, it's long time he's got paper.
Then for both Lib can be a question of 3-4 turns. And we're toasted.
I agree with you about Qin. Churchill and Toku are not a problem.

Is there an other save somewhere? when I look no opponents have education. And education is quite expensive. I think we have 10 turns before we need to finish lib.

It's nice to see another optimistic guy here

Aside the joke, the save is the same. It's the way to interpret it that differs. But perhaps yours was a joke too?

 

[Shaandore]

First of all, I'm basically okay with our current micro situation. There are some issues that need to be adressed though, and also some adjustments that we should make.

EDIT: these should be in city cycle order.

Prague: we should build a workshop. and chop the forest, it has no use.

Nuremberg: perfect example why late non-riverside cottages are weak. We are still working them, and because of Colossus, they are still inferior (and will be for a while) compared to coast. I wonder if working the lake would be better. We shouldn't touch the cottage at this point, working the lake will be better even long term. Maybe the Hamlets are worth working for now though.

Augsburg: This city looks very good, the only thing I would change is get the workers to more useful places (see comments at other cities. This city has all it will ever need. The optimal whipping for this city is 6->4, 7->4 or 8->4 whips.

Mainz: Well here we have a problem. This is our NE city, and it's working cottages instead of specialists. Why isn't it farmed? feel free to farm the 1-commerce cottages. (tha hamlets can stay, what the heck...) The jungles should get farms immediately, too. Next building should be theater. I propose switching tiles with Pisa so it can switch to farms and work more specialists now. Don'T work cottages here unless we have surplus population that we can't turn into specialists (or the slots we have are not good). We obviously need workers here.

Ulm is unhappy. Whipping a market would solve most of our problems. Just put in 1 turn, and do a big whip. The unhappiness will go away during regrowth.

Bridge could whip the Rathaus in 3 turns if we switch the iron mine to coast next turn.

Gao: whip the Library here this turn.

Luxemburg: Chop the forest ASAP

Hades Hammer: obviously attack the archer. Whip Rathaus now.

 

[Shaandore]

@Blub: I don't agree with the need to be hasty here. Edu is very expensive, and lib can't be immediately bulbed either. And most AIs don't prioritize Edu. (See Qin going for Democracy before Edu? That's a good example of what I'm talking about) Sury will have a war on his hands in 5 turns, he just doesn't stand a chance.

In my experience the AIs that prefer Edu are usually the tech-savy guys: Mansa, Cyrus, etc. Our enemies are rather warlike guys except Churchill and Sury, but then again they are no threat to Lib.

Let's say Peter is going for Edu->Lib as we speak, and he pops a GS next turn. Even then it will take him 5+ turns to reach lib, and we can still beat him when we see that he got Edu by doing the mission in the next two turns.

@Folket: no, we are looking at the same save.

 

[BLubmuz]

Mainz: Well here we have a problem. This is our NE city, and it's working cottages instead of specialists. Why isn't it farmed? feel free to farm the 1-commerce cottages. (tha hamlets can stay, what the heck...) The jungles should get farms immediately, too. Next building should be theater. I propose switching tiles with Pisa so it can switch to farms and work more specialists now. Don'T work cottages here unless we have surplus population that we can't turn into specialists (or the slots we have are not good). We obviously need workers here.

I agree on everythig i deleted

True, Mainz is our NE city as i pointed out too.
But i'd like to keep the gene clean for GSs, at the cost of less GPeople - for now. We've the 2 free ones from the GLib here and we only need to add 2 without much effort to have very good chances of a GS in 12 turns to bulb PP or to keep for Astro or chem. If we have GP, a GS will bulb Chem, if we have optics Astro. If we have chem but not astro he will go for SM. Not sure but if we have Astro he will still go for SM and skip chem.

The plan can be to have one more GS after the one we can have in 12 turns, then hire any specialist to have the most GPeople from this city. In fact, after 2 GSs and with the MoM we will hopefully get, the best use for Gpersons is a GAge.