SGOTM 17 - Maple Sporks
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
You'd go a>w>w, and steal the worker with the new archer, or would you move the old archer towards Mansa? The latter will take quite some time, but the former will leaves us undefended.
Don't forget that Mansa started with 4 archers, although I don't know what the UNIT_AI's of these archers are.
Don't forget that Mansa started with 4 archers, although I don't know what the UNIT_AI's of these archers are.
Admittedly I'm not much of a worker stealer in any case, but I have the feeling the rewards for doing so here are limited. It takes a lot of time to actually start profiting from that worker (20+ turns), MM won't be severely hampered if he started with 2 workers and we harrass him late-ish anyway. It also comes at a defense cost (archer away) and soured relations for time to come. Getting peace without being able to kill a unit (no metals nor horses yet) might be tough too. In short, I'm not completely convinced about it tbh. 
(xpost)
I'd go with our current archer, and see if we can snatch a worker. Meanwhile we produce a warrior first for emergency defence, which can then move on to fogbust our western area while we build the archer and the second warrior. Archers typically start with the city defence AI, but I think I read somewhere that it was different for starting units (at least in ancient starts) I think they had some kind of scouting behaviour. Ill try to find some more info on this.
Regarding nocho's comments: The fact that he has 2 workers makes it easier to snatch one, and being at war with us will also delay his settling, leaving us time to snatch the copper city location, which currently is conveniantly close to his capital. And we could be profiting from the worker in 12-13 turns at the earliest. And there is plenty of forest to fight defensively to get kills.
I'd go with our current archer, and see if we can snatch a worker. Meanwhile we produce a warrior first for emergency defence, which can then move on to fogbust our western area while we build the archer and the second warrior. Archers typically start with the city defence AI, but I think I read somewhere that it was different for starting units (at least in ancient starts) I think they had some kind of scouting behaviour. Ill try to find some more info on this.
Regarding nocho's comments: The fact that he has 2 workers makes it easier to snatch one, and being at war with us will also delay his settling, leaving us time to snatch the copper city location, which currently is conveniantly close to his capital. And we could be profiting from the worker in 12-13 turns at the earliest. And there is plenty of forest to fight defensively to get kills.
DwarfSleepy
The Sleeper
The tactic 'early worker steal' relies on being able to sue for peace (almost) immediately afterwards. Factors that determine this are combat succes (and the worker steal counts as one), relative strength and threatening cities (units within 2 tiles of city).
I'm afraid that our power ratio is so skewed due to the starting archers of mansa, that he will not accept peace after the steal. I would definitely like to see this tested at this difficulty level before we risk it.
I'm afraid that our power ratio is so skewed due to the starting archers of mansa, that he will not accept peace after the steal. I would definitely like to see this tested at this difficulty level before we risk it.
At least Mansa could still be a tech trading partner after we peace him, as he will still trade us at furious. But I agree with DS that we should test this. I'm not saying we should steal workers, I'm just saying that we shouldn't dismiss it without giving it some thought.
That's true.I'm just saying that we shouldn't dismiss it without giving it some thought.
However, the more I think of it the riskier it seems to me. For all we know Mansa could already have metal or horse hooked up if he has it in its BFC. If so, we won't even get the worker out alive...And we don't want to have any excitement now do we? 
Seriously though, under the circumstances I think the gain from worker stealing would be marginal, the harm to Mansa would be marginal, the risks would be considerable and the distraction too. It may well jeopardize our expansion effort for the effective gain of just 60 hammers (effective only considerably later), maybe costing us more in extra units we may have to build. Admittedly this is merely my feeling about it though, no hard numbers.
Seriously though, under the circumstances I think the gain from worker stealing would be marginal, the harm to Mansa would be marginal, the risks would be considerable and the distraction too. It may well jeopardize our expansion effort for the effective gain of just 60 hammers (effective only considerably later), maybe costing us more in extra units we may have to build. Admittedly this is merely my feeling about it though, no hard numbers.
If you feel so strongly about it we can always just ignore the posibility. I just felt that it deserved to be mentioned, with an opponent closeby, which we intend to eliminate at some point anyway, and us planning to build militairy units anyway. Morover Mansa isnt one to hold a grudge, and diplomatic fallout oafter making peace would be minimal. And there is always the possibility of stealing two workers, as he started with two.
I wont have time to test this out myself unfortunately until friday, and I doubt we will wait that long for a decision, so unless anyone else also thinks this might be viable enough to warrant testing I guess we can ignore it and move on.
I wont have time to test this out myself unfortunately until friday, and I doubt we will wait that long for a decision, so unless anyone else also thinks this might be viable enough to warrant testing I guess we can ignore it and move on.
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate very much all ideas being thrown out! Nor do I feel that strongly against the idea of worker stealing, but my gut feeling tells me it's not that ideal under these circumstances. My gut can be wrong, however! I won't be able to test either.
Norvin_Green
Emperor
One other concern with a Mansa worker steal - in approx 5 turns or so his borders are expanding from being the Holy City, no? As flat as this land seems we might never see his worker(s).
In a SP game my choice for settling Pig would be 2N if my first thought was to build a library and chop some wood into it. It would net us 4 grassland hills if we mine the banana.
In a SP game my choice for settling Pig would be 2N if my first thought was to build a library and chop some wood into it. It would net us 4 grassland hills if we mine the banana.
DwarfSleepy
The Sleeper
Ok, let's try to make some decisions:
I've had another good look at the game:
The Mansa border expansion does it for me: I vote against worker stealing. OB with mansa, and hope for his hindu missionaries to give us free border expansions
For scouting: I would say scout continues west through mansa's territory
archer goes SE S to cover pig spot, then continues SW, roughly following coastline
future archer: scout NNW past gems and then come back to fogbust
future warrior: scout NE corner and thay there to fogbust
future warrior2: scout southern banana-peninsula
as for settling pig city: Novin suggestion of 2N also has merit. I'm undecided
I've had another good look at the game:
The Mansa border expansion does it for me: I vote against worker stealing. OB with mansa, and hope for his hindu missionaries to give us free border expansions
For scouting: I would say scout continues west through mansa's territory
archer goes SE S to cover pig spot, then continues SW, roughly following coastline
future archer: scout NNW past gems and then come back to fogbust
future warrior: scout NE corner and thay there to fogbust
future warrior2: scout southern banana-peninsula
as for settling pig city: Novin suggestion of 2N also has merit. I'm undecided
2N of pig would have been nice had we been creative. It will take too long and will cost too many resources (wood and worker turns) to get that library asap. Our city 2 needs to get up to speed asap, more so with a slow growing cap. With only 1 stellar food resource closeby and with the need to have it first ring, the options are limited. 
Personally I'd move scout 2SE first to check around the copper and then SW and clockwise through the blackness towards Mansa.
If we vote about worker stealing I'd also be against, but I wouldn't want to call a vote just to get the issue out of the way... We need noses in the same direction.
Personally I'd move scout 2SE first to check around the copper and then SW and clockwise through the blackness towards Mansa.
If we vote about worker stealing I'd also be against, but I wouldn't want to call a vote just to get the issue out of the way... We need noses in the same direction.
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