SGOTM 20 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

Ronnie1 · Aug 8, 2014

Reasoning

haphazard1 said:
A few thoughts on the PPP, Ronnie1.
Thanks, looks like you, me and aj for a bit! I think aj needs to play a turnset just for old times sake.

Do we really need a monument in the capital? A bit more culture per turn would not hurt, and units are costing us money, so I guess it is not a bad idea.
If we get a Monument soon it will be worth 2/t in a thousand years. We don't need more units and the added maintenance. There is nothing else to build except workers and settlers, and I may end up going here also.

Do we grow HF into unhappiness for later whipping, or do we whip some of this infra? The barracks is at something like 17/50 right now, perfect for a 2-pop whip, if desired. I am not sure what the best approach is here.
I looked at the 2 pop whip now, but decided we needed the pop in the short run. The Monument helps us in the short run to pop our borders.

SL already has a garrison warrior. But it would be nice to put warrior 0 to use with his CG1 promotion.
Just going to swap them out and be more efficient.

We met Victoria, so there is now only 1 unknown AI. I am guessing they are going to be hard to reach, to make the hidden requirement difficult to reveal.
Cut and paste error indeed. Meeting the other English leader will not be that hard imo. We just need to send a chariot east, I'm sure that's where they are located!

I was putting points on Catherine during my turnset, as suggested by adrianj. We are close to gaining visibility on her demographics, but we are also close to losing visibility on Suleiman. So keep a close eye on the EP, maybe start splitting them between Sulieman and Catherine?
I am totally conflicted here. Do we even care about Suli at this point? Won't he be dead soon?

Otherwise the PPP looks good to me.

haphazard1 · Aug 8, 2014

On workers and settlers, note that workers contribute to unit maintenance. So do settlers, for that matter, but they tend to turn into cities -- which also cost maintenance. Sometimes it feels like you just can't win on maintenance. :lol:

For EP, it is nice to be able to see Suleiman's strength relative to our own. But he is going to die soon (at least if we have anything to say about it). That was the main reason behind shifting points to Catherine, in the hopes of future tech steals. Whether it is worth spending more on Suleiman...I don't know. Certainly no more than the minimum needed to see his demos...but such spending also makes him spend against us, raising the bar.

Ronnie1 · Aug 9, 2014

Since it appears to be just you and I, I played!

Reference number: 14119
Game: C-IV SGOTM 20
Your team: Misfit Gypsy Nuts
Your name: Ronnie1
Date submitted: 2014-08-09
Software Version: BtS 3.19
Game date: 1280BC
Total turns played: 68
Session turns played: 16
Player race: Ottoman
Firaxis score: 235
Session time played (hh:mm:ss): 06:24:31
Total time played (hh:mm:ss): 21:40:55
Game status: Incomplete

Everything went according to some sort of plan. The barb archers would not attack our CG archer because of bad odds, so I killed them with chariots eventually.

We just learned HBR! We are 6 turns of sustainable research to Hunting + Archery. We have some cottages down. We are ready to 2 pop a settler in SL (size 7) for the marble site. We have 1 + 1 warriors headed NE also. We have a C2 Chariot headed east on the northern route.

I did not manage CS very well.

I dodged the barb archers at first with the worker, and after I got to work, I didn't realize how fast it would grow. :cry:

It just got to size 3, and has granary + monument, but it is working 2 unimproved tiles. There are 2 workers here now and it will catch up.

Suli is still defending with warriors! HA's may be overkill.

Barb Holy Lands to our SW

Spoiler :

SE towards Suli

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T68 Demo and F1 sceens

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City Screens

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Upload log

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Autolog

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haphazard1 · Aug 9, 2014

Looks like some very solid turns, Ronnie1! :goodjob:

No whip anger in any of our cities currently, very nice.

I do wonder why you built another warrior when we are already paying unit maintenance, but that is a very small thing.

How can Suleiman still be defending with warriors? :confused:

I wish the copper was hooked up, one axe could conquer his whole empire. :lol:

He probably does have his starting archers around his capital, assuming he had starting archers...should have, on immortal, but who knows what Pollux may have done?

I see the barb holy city to our southwest is tucked behind some mountains, and will need ships to ferry troops. The similar city to our east is probably on an island, and also needs ferry service. Probably there are barb ships to defend the other cities?

I think our path forward is pretty clear: rapidly finish techs for HAs and rush Suleiman ASAP! Maybe throw in a couple axes as well. Then Peter should also be wiped out, still only has 2 cities. We can also grab the marble site and maybe a couple others with settlers. Within ~30 turns we should have 12 cities, if not more. Our economy will be struggling but conquest cash should get us to Writing tech for libraries and some scientists. With some focus on commerce tiles we should get to Alphabet easily enough for some trading. What should we hope to get? Math? IW? Sailing? Would love to get to Construction for elepults, maybe another war or two.... That's far enough in the future to not worry about too much right now, though.

Where do we want to place our marble city? I do like on the marble itself -- incredible city down the road a bit. Or should we split the resources there into two cities? If we plant on the marble we could also plan for a city 3E of it (multiple seafood) or to the northeast somewhere to grab pigs, stone, etc. Louis may beat us there, though, as he appears to be expanding rapidly.

Normally I would suggest trading our spare sheep for Napoleon's fish, but with Louis and Victoria hating Nappy and Louis being strongest AI while Napoleon is at the bottom...probably not worth it.

We need the copper online, as well as the elephants for happiness. That should happen pretty quickly. Finish stables (maybe even before the partially built chariot in SL?), crank out some units, and go get Suleiman!

BSPollux · Aug 9, 2014

Person without style said:
elepults

The cool kids call them Cataphants.

Ronnie1 · Aug 9, 2014

I do wonder why you built another warrior when we are already paying unit maintenance, but that is a very small thing.

I was trying to push a chariot in the que back to the Stable, but I still messed it up and completed the chariot too soon anyway.

There were not a lot of build options, hence the settler in SL also. We had already grown unhappy, and I didn't want more units, and the marble location is still available.

My biggest screw up was not getting 2 workers to CS soon enough.

Finish stables (maybe even before the partially built chariot in SL?),

Finish Stable first for sure!

Where do we want to place our marble city? I do like on the marble itself -- incredible city down the road a bit.

I definitely like on the marble!

nocho · Aug 10, 2014

Hi, sorry to have been unavailable for some days, I hope to catch up a bit. Still on holidays (for a good while still actually, until the 29th) but should be able to participate somewhat, not on a regular basis, but every few days or so.

adrianj · Aug 10, 2014

Good job advancing the game Ron. :goodjob:

Monument in SL? :lol:

Interesting choice, but I respect your decision.

I'm looking forward to seeing our horse archers stomp all over Suli and Peter.

Is the settler intended for Marble site? I figure planting directly on top of Marble would make for an epic GPFarm in the future. Claim ALL the food :yumyum:

Can we get a screenshot of northern lands around Peter/SL/Marble?

adrianj · Aug 10, 2014

I'm just going to put this here to maintain some semblance of order.
By my reckoning, Sleepless might be joining in again soon. dV can't be far away.

Up now is da Vinci! More active players, please feel free to post a draft PPP.

The roster order is:

nocho
Haphazard1
Ronnie1 Just Played
da_Vinci Up Now!
Sleepless On Deck
McArine

Advising:
Ororo, adrianj

adrianj · Aug 11, 2014

A Possible PPP

Stopping
Stop after Archery - as we'll then want to plan a war.
Stop if meet the final AI.
Stop if a nearby (Russian or Ottoman) AI shows WHEOOHRN.
Pause if an AI learns Alphabet, willing to trade techs.
Pause if barbarian units cause proper trouble.
Pause if we get religion.

Tech
Hunting > Archery > STOP

City Builds
SL: Settler > Stables. No whipping. Banking :mad:

population to whip into HAs.
ALTERNATIVE: 2pop whip stables and overflow into worker. Use worker to chop/mine a couple more hills to increase city's production.

HF: Stables. No whipping. Same as SL.

CS: Barracks > Stable. Depending on timing, might try to 2pop whip the Stable.

Try to time completion of stables with learning Archery. Possibly swap working high :hammers:

tiles (mines) for :commerce:

(cottages)?

Workers
(I don't know where the named workers are)
Ivory Worker: complete ivory camp. Build mine west of HF. Build road west of ivory for CS units direct route to Suli.
Copper Worker: complete copper mine. Road on copper. Pre-chop forest east of copper. When CS borders expand build camp on northern deer.
Remaining worker: help out copper worker.

Units
Be cool :cool:

Explore.

Religion & Civics
No changes expected.

Questions
Where are dV and Sleepless?

I'm sure there are many others.

haphazard1 · Aug 11, 2014

A couple thoughts on the draft PPP, adrianj:

- There is a partially built chariot in SL. Try to complete the stables before this chariot so it gets another promotion. But watch out for hammer decay -- it has been sitting in the queue while the settler has been built, so I am not sure how soon it will start losing hammers. This might be one reason to 2-pop the stables in SL. With Suleiman having weak defenses, the chariot will be useful.

- What unit(s) will escort the settler to the marble? I feel we have too little in place for the settler to be completely safe. Maybe send the new chariot from HF?

- What about a worker (or two) for the new marble city? We need some roads for connection, plus improving some tiles. I believe we have 4 workers now (need to name the latest one a 'D' name, maybe Davy?). So we should be able to send at least one, might be worth sending two and building another worker somewhere if we have time.

- For the ivory worker (whichever one that is), we do not yet know Hunting. So this worker needs to spend a couple turns doing something. The road west of ivory sounds like a good idea to me, or he could use the existing roads to add a couple turns into a cottage on the (useless) farm tile.

- For war planning, we are going to want to hit Suleiman as quickly as we can. He may still have warriors for now, but that can not last much longer. Once copper is connected we probably want an axe for defense against possible spears. It will move slowly but can be available for HAs to retreat to cover if Suleiman produces spears.

nocho · Aug 11, 2014

In my humble opinion we should definitely whip the settler in SL now into the stable. The stable will finish in a couple of turns, then the chariot probably (near) perfectly timed with archery for HAs. Quickest settler, stable and chariot with XPs. The chariot in HF can move this turn next to SL to accompany the settler, while the warrior and scout can do some "pre"-fogbusting.

Meanwhile, HF will accumulate 29 hammers into the stable the next 4 turns, for a perfect 2 pop whip into horse archers the next turn. We'll run unhappy for 2 turns, but that seems kind of inevitable anyway. And ivory will be hooked up shortly after.

For the ivory worker (B), I don't really see much added value to a road west of that ivory. I'd much rather spend 2 turns mining the hill 3N1W, go back to ivory to camp, finish mine. All roaded at 3 distance, so no time lost moving. Charlie and Alex should see to bronze and silver (and deers after border pop), while worker 4, D, presumably Diocletian

p), could go with the new settler to improve stuff.

@aj, is your PPP indicative of you planning to actually play a set? If not, I might be able to in the next couple of days.

adrianj · Aug 11, 2014

nocho said:
@aj, is your PPP indicative of you planning to actually play a set? If not, I might be able to in the next couple of days.

No, I'm not actually available to play, I just wanted to keep the discussion going.

By the power vested in me, I now declare you, nocho, UP NOW

Quote and then amend my proposed PPP as you see fit.

The roster order is:

Haphazard1
Ronnie1 Just Played
nocho Up Now!
da_Vinci On Deck
Sleepless
McArine

Advising:
Ororo, adrianj

adrianj · Aug 11, 2014

Ron said we have 2 warriors headed NE. Can these be used to fogbust + defend the new city site?

In the interest of maximising :commerce:

, perhaps we want to delay whipping away 2 pop in SL, since the good working population is on a cottage. Could delay by building stables for a couple of turns.

Another worker action that I've forgotten: CS's silver mine. This should be high priority. Perhaps after Ivory Worker is done (having occupied itself part-building a mine) we could have all 3 workers improving around CS. ~~Alternatively, one of them heads off to Marble with the new settler.~~

If we have 4 workers, I was unable to find the 4th one in the screenshots. If it's there, then by all means send it off with the settler.

Copper + Axes... I'm not particularly afraid of Spears. Cut off the AIs supply of copper and just try to overwhelm them. I'm no expert, but I always thought the HA rush's main benefit is speed. Waiting for Axes to keep up sounds like a painful waste of time.

Ronnie1 · Aug 11, 2014

Ron said we have 2 warriors headed NE. Can these be used to fogbust + defend the new city site?

If we have 4 workers, I was unable to find the 4th one in the screenshots. If it's there, then by all means send it off with the settler.

We have 5 warriors. Our CG warrior is mp in CS. We have a warrior mp SL. There is 1 on the road SE of SL and 1 on the cow headed to marble, (the 2 for the NE). The last 1 is 3S1W of CS, coming back from exploring the SW.

We do have 4 workers, Alex on copper, Billy on elephant, Charlie 1N of sheep > headed silver, D is 2S1E of SL > headed NE.

Copper + Axes... I'm not particularly afraid of Spears. Cut off the AIs supply of copper and just try to overwhelm them. I'm no expert, but I always thought the HA rush's main benefit is speed. Waiting for Axes to keep up sounds like a painful waste of time.

I too would not wait for Axes. Go fast, just as aj says!

We are 5 turns sustainable research to Archery with our current pop. I like the idea of delaying the settler whip a bit. We can road to the city site to make settling not quite so far behind maybe.

After Archery, what is the plan? Math? Alphabet? Trades? Priesthood? Metal Casting?

nocho · Aug 12, 2014

Why should we maximize commerce just now? We only need 5 turns to reach HAs, which won't be much affected by a cottage and for which the 2nd silver comes too late. I think a quicker settler and an ideally timed stable are much more important. Or please enlighten me about the contrary.

Writing would be the obvious tech after archery, unless we still want to go Oracle, but I guess that's out of the window now.

nocho · Aug 12, 2014

Tentative PPP
Thanks adrianj for the draft version.

Stopping
~~Stop after Archery - as we'll then want to plan a war.~~
Stop after about 10 turns with first HAs online.
Stop if meet the final AI.
Stop if a nearby (Russian or Ottoman) AI shows WHEOOHRN.
Pause if an AI learns Alphabet, willing to trade techs.
Pause if barbarian units cause proper trouble.
Pause if we get religion.

Tech
Hunting > Archery > WRITING

City Builds
SL: 2 pop whip Settler into stable. Or better even, into worker, dedicated to chopping wood into stables and HAs.

HF: Stables. 2 pop whip just before learning archery. -> HAs

CS: Barracks > Stable. Depending on timing, might try to 2pop whip the Stable.

Marble: Granary.

Try to time completion of stables with learning Archery and build HAs. ~~Possibly swap working high tiles (mines) for (cottages)?~~ -> No! quite the contrary imo. We need production/food while building HAs. Commerce to get out of the hole later.

Workers
As mentioned before I think at this junction happy and hammers are more pressing than commerce. Hence I want at least the mine done at HF and of course the elephants.
A: mine bronze, road
B: mine (2 turns) - camp - finish mine
C: help either A or B, then start on silver
D: accompany settler/road. We won't have instant TR access without roads nor sailing, right?
E: chop, mine GH 2E1S, chop

Units
Be cool :cool:

Explore.
Chariot 3 from HF accompany settler moving out now.

Religion & Civics
No changes expected.

Ronnie1 · Aug 12, 2014

I think we still need to be a bit commerce directed while still whipping our HA's. Working the cottages is food neutral allowing more whipping than working mines while we grow the cottages. The elephants will allow us to add a pop point. Whipping is more efficient than chopping before Math. I am in favor of worker Ed, but think he needs to help worker Dave connect the marble city.

snip......dedicated to chopping wood into stables and HAs.

Do we want to chop much before Math? If no, a reason to stay commerce focused a bit maybe.

Workers
As mentioned before I think at this junction happy and hammers are more pressing than commerce. Hence I want at least the mine done at HF and of course the elephants.
A: mine bronze, road
B: mine (2 turns) - camp - finish mine
1 turn on mine then camp, Billy has used his movement this turn.
C: help either A or B, then start on silver
Also moved this turn already, I was going to help on copper, but earlier elephants may be more valuable.
D: accompany settler/road. We won't have instant TR access without roads nor sailing, right?
We need a road to be connected! And for safety!
E: chop, mine GH 2E1S, chop
I would connect cities first.

I am still not sure about giving up on the Oracle either. With the religions out of play, and the built in animosity, I don't see the AI teching that line very aggressively.

nocho · Aug 12, 2014

I certainly wouldn't want to lose all commerce focus, but if we're serious about the rush part of the HA rush, we should be focussing on productive output. Surely the whip helps, but pretty sure a mine is better than a cottage. The extra food doesn't compensate 3 hammers. Then again a cottage is okay to grow back on if no other tiles available.

I wouldn't indiscriminately chop now, but also wouldn't avoid it until maths. That still takes about 25 turns, maybe a bit less with the extra silver. By then we should have a good number of HAs already. But indeed, some math chops can go to HA reinforcements.

I do like maths as objective. Opens up construction too which makes sense with elephants and HBR in hand. Priesthood, hmm... Looks like a big gamble to me. Starting it at 1000BC soonest doesn't feel right on immortal with IND civs around, even given the abnormal circumstances with all religions founded at game start. Note we also don't have masonry yet for marble bonus.

Worker suggestions noted.

Ronnie1 · Aug 12, 2014

I would love to have 1 visibility chariot for our attack stack.

SGOTM 20 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

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