SGOTM 22 - TTfkapr

[Gumbolt]

Way too early for barb galleys.

Downside to using warriors down south is you need more warriors in capital for 3rd city. I actually could see us delay BW till 4th city here. As with maths we would want HG. Interesting.

We could risk the gems warrior to travel to deer early on. Then it is roll of dice as to what we meet further down. On this approach I would build 1-2 warriors and recall the horse fogbusting warriors.

I think if you can post a test run through to mids then we can do a plan around this.

I also want to hear Shulec and others view. My testing suggests by land is safer. Like anything, things can go wrong. I am 100% on mids though.

Cottages vs farms is another debate. Any thoughts on this??

A debate on techs too. I think skipping myst and archery would speed up maths and HG. It will slow down stone city a bit.

 

[elitetroops]

My attempt walking the settler.

Cap builds Settler->Settler->Granary->Warrior->Warrior->Library->Mids

Tech Sailing->Writing->BW (to 1 turn before completion)->Maths (finish BW after stone is settled)->Mysticism. Or actually, what I did do was to switch to writing immediately and finish sailing 1 turn before settling stone.

All but gems warrior are retreated to cap, fish can be settled without escort as we will get border pop before settler gets there. Worker builds a couple of roads to get settler to fish one turn faster, settle 2080 BC.

After this fogbust peninsula with 3 warriors. In test game warrior from gems made it alive to stone, might not in real game, which complicates things... As settler moves towards stone it becomes a spawnbuster itself, and 2 warriors are relieved of duty to return to capital before settling. Settler has to wait one turn on stone for 6th warrior to return (and a couple of roads are built to speed up return of 6th warrior). Settle stone 1480 BC.

After settling I revolt to slavery and in this attempt I 3 pop whipped the library with overflow into mids. Maybe better if the plan can somehow be adjusted to not require 3 pop whip. But had to skip pigs a couple of turns anyway to avoid growing into unhappiness. Stone city was working coast until maths was in for the commerce. Also built a couple of more cottages.

Mids to be finished 900BC (log date), 3 forests chopped after Math.

 

[yyeah]

Nice ET Finally !!!
Like i was Rofl about Galley plan now i c some Deity plays not freaking nobles attempts ... sry.
This is way better then mine .
You are later with Mids 4 turns or sth but 2nd city is 3 pop allrdy and you have Maths.

But in our game since we went for Pottery we wont be able to reserch Writing, Math and BW... this will again slow Mids significantly.

 

[yyeah]

I was cheking a little bit and we cant be in time with 3th city right in the end of reserching BW.
becouse it take too long to bulid everything in cap, but maybe this is the way go for duble settler and bulid like 2 warriors in fish spot take this mine and in cap work 2f1c tile since we have to grow it anyway.

 

[elitetroops]

But in our game since we went for Pottery we wont be able to reserch Writing, Math and BW... this will again slow Mids significantly.

Not sure what you mean. We have pottery so we can research writing immediately. I played the test from latest test game, which is up to date. (Attaching here test with southern warrior on gems and new forest in place.)

2nd city actually already did a 2 pop whip for granary. Didn't think much about what is best there. Just built WB->Granary->WB->Lighthouse. Maybe better to go WB-WB->Granary, since I had to switch away from granary to be able to 2 pop it later. Earlier exploring is better.

 

[yyeah]

Oh so allright, sry i was confused a bit.
Looks good to me. 900BC is ok.

 

[Gumbolt]

So have we drawn any conclusions here??? When I have a spare moment I will look at ET's posted save. We still need Shulec and packers views.

I think our overall strategy looks good. Our only possible mistake here has been tech order going sailing first. Just means no early library. Maybe a blessing in disguise??

Off to cook.

 

[elitetroops]

I tried to replicate my last play, but must have done micro differently as I got very different results. Mids 875BC (one turn later), but instead I only chopped 2 forests and cap will grow to pop 6 next turn after we get mids. Fish city also growing into unhappiness the turn we get mids, but if we switch to REP immediately this is good.

One difference was that I found a way to settle stone one turn earlier, but this shouldn't have any effect. Stone city is +-0 for our economy if it works coast. Increases costs by 4gpt, but brings in 4.

Then I must have worked some more hammer tiles over commerce at some point as I was later to math, which was main reason mids were delayed one turn.

Attaching save, have a look at it and tell me which version you prefer. I prefer the second one, I think, because cap is in much better shape than in first version with full food bar and one more forest left to chop. Only downside is that mids come one turn later, which increases risk to lose them.

In this version I also have 2 exploring workboats out from Fish already.

 

[Gumbolt]

Just viewed your save at top of page. Do we need to shrink from S6 so much?? Overall looks very impressive. Granary and LH in fish city.

I think you have the right idea. Bit worried you have copied some of my forest chopping. Would it be better to save some of these for HG and aqueduct.

I think land approach works so much better. The idea of risking a sea approach with 1 warrior and settler was very risky.

Overall some good play testing today from team. Shulec has yet to post a test save. All waiting in anticipation. What else would you do on a day where it has rained non stop!!

 

[elitetroops]

Okay, forget the save at top of page, must have done something really stupid there. In the 875 BC version I had my worker just standing around for 2 turns as maths was late. Here I instead did a chop pre-math and got mids 900 BC, growing to pop 6 same turn, and more hammer overflow than I had in the first take. So if we are going to chop 3 forests, then this is way better. Or chop only two forests and go with 875BC above.

This game is sometimes a real mystery. Somehow this second take has way more food in foodbar and more hammers despite not having maths for one of the chops... Small changes in micro can really make a huge difference.

 

[elitetroops]

One thing we shouldn't forget. If we do it like this and don't have copper or later iron anywhere within reach, then we have to build 8 archers to found the 4th city. In that case maybe better to build 8 catapults...

 

[yyeah]

Sry i had heavy day couldnt post anything.
Sry allso that i was laughing about your ideas but what is funny for me is hat you are tend to play this game toooo safe and in way i just cant understand sometimes like shrinking cap 4 turns, or bulid galley to move settler "couple of tiles".
Like this plays tends to be extreamly safe and putting us behind if we want to win this we just cant afford it.
Anyway sry again.

1 thing ET about your test becouse this is v importand how many warriors you took for escort ?.
This must be at least 2 promoted warriors, better even if 1 have c1 promotion sice we have fogbust in this canyon and problem can be in this non forested hills.

Anotehr thing do we rly need to whip in to Mids ? I rather switch in to Rep/slavery, HR/slavery ( if we want to settle 5th) and do this in 1 turn instand of 2.

 

[elitetroops]

Nobody escorted the settler, warriors had cleared all the way already and had it fogbusted. As soon as 2nd city was built, 2 warriors from cap headed down. The one from gems started moving towards stone when the other warriors had western canyon covered. Moved them in such a way that nothing could spawn between warriors, barbs may only appear in front of gems warrior. With gems warrior on stone, one on deer and a third one at opening of canyon, the whole route is safe. As soon as settler reached deer, the deer warrior headed back to cap and reached Rome same turn settler was ready to settle stone. I needed 2 roads in canyon forests for warrior to make it back. From deer, the settler can move safely to stone without escort (with warrior fogbusting on stone).

I realize that more barbs down there can cause big problems. But it is only really the gems warrior moving to stone that is at risk, all other units always move in safe territory. If something happens to gems warrior, then there are 2 warriors down in the canyon that can escort settler. In which case we of course have to build more warriors for capital.

I guess it's worth testing without whipping as well. But then you can't work the best tiles in cap and fish. Also probably means no library, don't know if maths will be reached in time.

 

[Gumbolt]

As a team we need to come up with the best ideas. I have no issue with exploring ideas if only to reject them. Least we are realising which ideas won't work. Bit like the Praet plan we were pretty much planning at start. Or the shrinking plan for TGW 1 turn earlier. I actually think BSP put stone on the coast to encourage mids. Especially with the river on live game.

Looking at civics I agree it would be better to do 1 civic switch for slavery and rep. I guess we don't want to delay slavery/rep for 4th city?? Would mean 2 more warriors and settler. This is one of the reasons I thought early archery would be better. Less units to replace later. Hmmmm.

This was only a test run looking at how we could build mids and general strategies. . We can't plan 40 turns over a few test saves. I think there will be a lot of micro to consider over next 2 turnsets. I didn't really focus much on the 2nd/3rd cities in my games.

One issue I did spot on ET test game. A barb city spawned near the horse city. Might mean we have to capture it later.

 

[yyeah]

I didnt use whips 9000BC, 3 math chops, no lib. Bulid some additional warriors dont rememebr how much did you have i check it soon.
This will be hard micro play dude.
I bulid 1 more warrior, this meens if we dont have to bulid it maybe we can squeeze 1 more turn to this mids

Edit
But overall i dont know you had lighhouse 2 workboats, everything becouse of whip overflow .... this can be worth more then taht 1 turn without anarchy.

 

[elitetroops]

Quick test without slavery gave mids 925BC, with only 2 chops, growing to pop 6 same turn. Also, mysticism would be in already the next turn. However, no library in cap yet and no granary in fish (granary can be 2 pop whipped as soon as we get slavery). Still possibly the best option. It would take a while for capital to get library up, unless we whip it, which we might not want to do after rep.

 

[yyeah]

Good 1 less warrior Mids 1 turn faster, Lib sint problem i think we can just slow bulid it while grow to 8 we have enough .
And like you said 2 pop whip granary in fish spot.

Inetresting you was working Hammers in fish spot and in capitol when i was working cotages and we had math same turn ^^.

Oh and yea that was 1 turn faster becosue you didnt sw in to slavery ;p.

 

[elitetroops]

I didnt use whips 9000BC, 3 math chops, no lib. Bulid some additional warriors dont rememebr how much did you have i check it soon.
This will be hard micro play dude.
I bulid 1 more warrior, this meens if we dont have to bulid it maybe we can squeeze 1 more turn to this mids

Edit
But overall i dont know you had lighhouse 2 workboats, everything becouse of whip overflow .... this can be worth more then taht 1 turn without anarchy.

It seems you chopped a lot. How many forests? You should use the latest test game with the grown forest added (this one).

It's hard to tell what is best here. No slavery means faster mids, but no library yet in cap and some less stuff in fish means slower continuation... With library already up we could head straight for aqueduct and HG, probably want library first otherwise. Not sure if we will be running scientists in cap anytime soon. Maybe better to create GS in Fish and hope for GE in cap.

Lack of library also costs us at least 3-4/turn until library is built. That quickly counters the beakers we saved with one turn less anarchy...

 

[Gumbolt]

One downside to our approach. We will only have 1 worker by 900bc.

Ice stone doesn't require one. Fish city will long term. Capital too maybe. Of course long term we will want mids sooner. 13 turns off Gspy at 900bc.

Without whipping city 2 lacks granary and light house. That is a big difference. With a second worker some of these builds could of had math chops. 2 pop whip of worker?

Makes the civic choices even harder. Delayed civic changes vs using chops instead?

Are we 100% sure on cottages?? We are planning rep and building cottages?? Bit odd. Maybe better to just use HR and grow capital into a monster city using 7-8+ mines??

 

[yyeah]

yea its hard but i think i more like to switch in to slavery.
You right we can start working on Aqueduct, then settler at 8 and maybe settler at 10 then finish hgs.
This workboats will help to find ai and maybe we can trade for some happy stuff.
Allso we need switch this warriors on archers or something it will be hard to do everything without this whips.
Edit
I more like farms, but we have time to think about it we dont have agc yet, and we need cotages atm to get early math

i used 3 math choops