SGOTM 22 - Xteam

[Ronnie1]

I think you are thinking about HBR. In nilla and Warloads, we only need construction. But in BTS, we need HBR to go with construction to build WE's. That is why I think we need that copper. Also I am speculating that BSP put Iron far from us too.

You are correct of course, but my point is the same. If we are going to need Cats to make any progress against any AI, then Elephants to go with is only 1 tech away.

My concern is Celts. We are the weakest and they are unhappy with us.

But he likes Darius even less. If we adopt a different religion, then we have serious reason for concern.

 

[Htadus]

You are correct of course, but my point is the same. If we are going to need Cats to make any progress against any AI, then Elephants to go with is only 1 tech away.
I am not disagreeing. But it is long ways away if we learn ourselves and much faster via theft.

But he likes Darius even less. If we adopt a different religion, then we have serious reason for concern.

Darius makes no difference. Darius is not close to him but we are.

BTW, you just brought up another subject we have to discuss. We are going to have Sal's religion soon. Do we adopt? Wait till asked? Do not adopt even if asked?

 

[leif erikson]

Don't we get a discount in Espy points if we share the religion of the target?

 

[Jersey Joe]

I moved Sal to the west where we can see his border and I gave him the correct number of cities. I did not move Darius since I cannot see his border.
The only thing that might be a problem is we do not have open borders with Bennus (in the real game we do). He is currently annoyed with us and will not accept the offer.

 

[Jersey Joe]

BTW, you just brought up another subject we have to discuss. We are going to have Sal's religion soon. Do we adopt? Wait till asked? Do not adopt even if asked?

As long as GIFT belongs to Darius, I am against adopting Sal's religion. It will give us negatives with Darius. Better to keep Darius pleased with us to offset the times we get caught spying on him.
To get an espy bonus, GIFT would also have to have the same religion.
If we do adopt Sal's religion, you know he will eventually ask us to stop trading with Darius. The trade route espy modifier is greater than the religion modifier.
Once we adopt HR we will have all the happiness we need.
Bennus is annoyed with us because we trade with his worst enemies. No popularity gain if we adopt a religion than makes us heathens in his eyes.

 

[Ronnie1]

After doing a bit of testing with the new save, thx Joe, I would present the following PPP.

Goals
Settle jungle city to grab elephants and sugar. I know Htadus wants to avoid the sugar and make it an HE city, but in a game with the overall limited ability to work tiles because of city restrictions, I think it is better to work that tile. Tech to Alphabet.

Tech
Alphabet

All research will be binary

Cities
Caput Mundi - Granary next here, mm slowing growth so we grow when the wears off. Then time finish of granary to 1/2 full food bar. Then start on an archer and grow to size 6 asap. Start settler build at size 6, whip.

New Rome - Monument here 1st. I tested going straight Library here, even got a 2 pop whip overflow from a spy and it just takes forever. The real issue showed up when I wanted to start on SOZ after Aesthetics was learned, I did not have the requisite number of Monuments built.

1 pop whip Monument asap and then start Granary or Library. Will do a bit more testing on this subject. Trying to see if it is possible to get a Library up and be size 4 soon enough beat Caput to the next Gpers. I still don't believe it is doable, especially if restricts our ability to run scientists in Caput. Caput has so much food that scientists there in the short run greatly boost our tech rate.

Workers
We need to road out to the jungle through the hill we intend to mine. Then preferably through the banana. In testing I actually had bar issues in that area. 1 worker stays at New Rome all the time. 1 works towards jungle city all the time. 3rd floats.

Units
I want to fogbust the Gem site with a warrior if possible, just in case we decide we want to settle it soonish, would hate to have a barb city spring there. I will use 1-2 archers to protect our worker when he is outside borders. Need to build 1 more archer so we can settle city 3.

Espionage
Leave on Sal

Diplomacy
Refuse all requests

Civics
No action planned

Religion
No action planned

Stopping Conditions
- Alphabet is learned, approx T96 (16 turns from now, probably pause in 8-10 turns)

- Any AI declares war on us

- Anything severely unexpected that requires team input


What did I forget?

 

[Jersey Joe]

Nice outline Ronnie.

Consider building the settler by using 2 chops from outside the fat cross and a 1 pop whip which might be enough to build an archer so you would only need the population.

As for getting out second GP out of Rome before Caput:
Getting a GS for the second GP is possible with a little luck (barbs do not disrupt the plan).
Caput will have the 200 points required for a GP in 58 turns. It takes 34 turns for 2 scientist specialists to generate 200 points. So Rome has a 23 turn margin in which to start running 2 scientist specialists. It will take Rome 21 turns to grow to Size 4 based on 1 working building 3 farms (cow does not count because no border expansion) and after building the 3 farms (15 turns) the worker chops a forest. Another worker must chop 5 forests in 21 turns and the Library is built on the same turn Rome we grows to size 4. Note all the chops are need because the forests are outside our bounderies and only yield 13 hammers per chop).

If Rome whips a monument at size 2 and starts on a Library it grows to size 4 in 28 turns (to late to get the second GP) can whip the Lib and regrow to size 4 in another 11 turns. 50 turns later it will have enough points to build the third GP before Caput builds number 3.

Of course the above is based on Caput not building another wonder during the period in question and not running any specialists.

Is a Great Scientist worth 6 forests?

 

[leif erikson]

Goals
Settle jungle city to grab elephants and sugar. I know Htadus wants to avoid the sugar and make it an HE city, but in a game with the overall limited ability to work tiles because of city restrictions, I think it is better to work that tile. Tech to Alphabet.

I am with Htadus here. If we intend to conquer the AI civs we are going to need a strong production city that can pump out units. That city needs to be up and running soon.

As it is, we are terribly limited in hammers due to the city count restrictions. The Ai are not. We will need lots of units and a way to produce them as quickly as possible.

Tech
Alphabet

All research will be binary

Cities
Caput Mundi - Granary next here, mm slowing growth so we grow when the wears off. Then time finish of granary to 1/2 full food bar. Then start on an archer and grow to size 6 asap. Start settler build at size 6, whip.

New Rome - Monument here 1st. I tested going straight Library here, even got a 2 pop whip overflow from a spy and it just takes forever. The real issue showed up when I wanted to start on SOZ after Aesthetics was learned, I did not have the requisite number of Monuments built.

1 pop whip Monument asap and then start Granary or Library. Will do a bit more testing on this subject. Trying to see if it is possible to get a Library up and be size 4 soon enough beat Caput to the next Gpers. I still don't believe it is doable, especially if restricts our ability to run scientists in Caput. Caput has so much food that scientists there in the short run greatly boost our tech rate.

Okay, do not see how we can get a Great Scientist out in time without sacrificing something else?

If you whip a Settler in Caput, hope pop grows back fast enough to allow quickly settling?

Workers
We need to road out to the jungle through the hill we intend to mine. Then preferably through the banana. In testing I actually had bar issues in that area. 1 worker stays at New Rome all the time. 1 works towards jungle city all the time. 3rd floats.

Yes, if we keep the same city site?

Units
I want to fogbust the Gem site with a warrior if possible, just in case we decide we want to settle it soonish, would hate to have a barb city spring there. I will use 1-2 archers to protect our worker when he is outside borders. Need to build 1 more archer so we can settle city 3.

Would be a good idea to check Gem site.

Espionage
Leave on Sal

Diplomacy
Refuse all requests

Civics
No action planned

Religion
No action planned

Okey dokey...

Stopping Conditions
- Alphabet is learned, approx T96 (16 turns from now, probably pause in 8-10 turns)

- Any AI declares war on us

- Anything severely unexpected that requires team input


What did I forget?

Good.

We have several Open Borders agreements we can sign, Sumeria and Carthage.

 

[Htadus]

Hey, what happened to my post from last night?

I posted an image. I hope I did not post it in another thread. Crap.

 

[Htadus]

Going by memory as to what I wrote.

Please build a wb or a galley in the CM. Most of us agree with it.

Getting the next city asap is more important than anything else. I would prefer to secure copper but horses are or gem is fine at the moment. If we are going to go for the Ivory city, then we should learn IW instead of Alpha. I built that city and only had mined hills to work for a long time.

The capital does not know what to do with a Granary at the moment. I would use the turns to build archers to get the next city running.

Oh yes, CM will take 56 turns to build the next GP after the first, we definitely have time to generate one from Rome. Joe, for me a GSci is worth kagillian forests. Being able to bulb Education is worth 6 forests. Because this give us faster access to Liberalism. Heck, we can even bulb liberalism with a GS if we avoid Machinery. So in my view it is.

Here is an image of my test. I started with whipping a galley in CM and whipping and building a monument and 2 archers in Rome in order to secure all three resources and found the next city. Most (3 or 4) of the forests around Rome were pre-chopped and chopped the forests in the diagonals into builds. I had to delay the city founding for 3 turns since I did not have enough archers. So there must be a way to settle faster. may be chop more forests out side of capitals BFC.

 

[leif erikson]

Getting the next city asap is more important than anything else. I would prefer to secure copper but horses are or gem is fine at the moment. If we are going to go for the Ivory city, then we should learn IW instead of Alpha. I built that city and only had mined hills to work for a long time.

Thinking we only need to decide which resource is most important atm. If we place a city 2 west and 1 south of the copper, on the wooded plains tile, the copper will be in the bfc while the horses will be picked up in the second border expansion. Is that good enough for our needs? One city can claim both?

The capital does not know what to do with a Granary at the moment. I would use the turns to build archers to get the next city running.

Interesting thought. think you may be right.

Oh yes, CM will take 56 turns to build the next GP after the first, we definitely have time to generate one from Rome. Joe, for me a GSci is worth kagillian forests. Being able to bulb Education is worth 6 forests. Because this give us faster access to Liberalism. Heck, we can even bulb liberalism with a GS if we avoid Machinery. So in my view it is.

Are we going to hold a GS that long?

Seems we'd have a better use for him? Unless our stealing tech is that profitable.

 

[Htadus]

Thinking we only need to decide which resource is most important atm. If we place a city 2 west and 1 south of the copper, on the wooded plains tile, the copper will be in the bfc while the horses will be picked up in the second border expansion. Is that good enough for our needs? One city can claim both?
Hummm not a bad idea. Gives us a corn farm 2 food neutral wines and several farmable river tiles as well as the copper. I am in. It would be funny if the iron is there too.

Are we going to hold a GS that long? In my tests, I have stolen my way to Paper. Darius actually is one of the AI who tech CS, Hanny is another. I do not know why. May be it has something to do with gold flavor. But when I tested the game with Sal, he learned Theo which I stole and was able to learn paper.

Seems we'd have a better use for him? Unless our stealing tech is that profitable.

We would know how everything are happening by the time we get a GS. I think we need to play the thefts a bit carefully. Basically steal IW and Monarchy asap but take our time stealing other techs with 50% discounts. I would not leave more than 2 spys in the city at a time. They seem to get caught.

Anyways, it may be better for us to settle city 3 and 4 before anything else, including the library in the capital because we need to get going on our production base. And then decide what we need to do. I think we need to test and see how fast we can get these cities settled.

 

[Ronnie1]

I am with Htadus here. If we intend to conquer the AI civs we are going to need a strong production city that can pump out units. That city needs to be up and running soon.

When do we plan to do this? It would be quite some time before we could have a city big enough to work all those hills. However, with banana and sugar plus some farms, we can get into a much better whipping cycle and do it sooner.

 

[leif erikson]

Please look at Htadus screenie. There will be two bananas along with the hills. This would allow some cottages that could be worked if we ever get enough happiness to use them.

 

[Htadus]

When do we plan to do this? It would be quite some time before we could have a city big enough to work all those hills. However, with banana and sugar plus some farms, we can get into a much better whipping cycle and do it sooner.

Ronnie, if we want a whipping city, then there are plenty of sites that is available. But a HE city need to be prepped in advance to get the most use out of it. We need to get a Monument, Granary and a Rax and then grow. We have two nana's and 5 farmable tiles. (Only 1 banana is farmable until CS or wait for Calendar.) But we will have several hills that can be worked to build units as soon as we have the techs for cats or who knows Preats.

 

[Jersey Joe]

Ronnie, if we want a whipping city, then there are plenty of sites that is available. But a HE city need to be prepped in advance to get the most use out of it. We need to get a Monument, Granary and a Rax and then grow. We have two nana's and 5 farmable tiles. (Only 1 banana is farmable until CS or wait for Calendar.) But we will have several hills that can be worked to build units as soon as we have the techs for cats or who knows Preats.

Why is Rome not being condisered for the HE city? Rome has 5 hills it can work. In the next 21 turns Rome could build/whip a monument then an archer. After that chop a couple of hills to to build a granary, and a barracks. Needing only 1 worker.

Using 2 workers for the next 21 turns to build a Library and run 2 specialists in Rome hurts our ability to expand. Caput will have build another worker along with archers and settlers.
Two examples of how easy it would be for the chopping to not be completed on time, (1) have a Barb archer appear in the forest above the cow and start moving toward GIFT, or (2) if a Barb starts moving from the horse toward Hannibal.

Instead of chopping Rome, our second worker could build a mine then road to the jungle city settle site and when the city is built road inside jungle city's boundaries till IW is learned/stolen. The third worker could do some chops to build 2 settlers for jungle city and another city. If Gem city is next up after jungle city the third worker could start roading and prechopping to gem site. If copper or another city is chosen the worker could road and maybe prechop to that site.

 

[Htadus]

2 x five food tiles can help work 18 base hammers from 5 hills and the ivory with only 8 pop and do it sooner. How many population would Rome has to grow to have that kind of capacity?

Rome need to be setup as a commerce city since sooner than later, CM has to run farms and that may include converting a few cottages we work. We may find much better commerce cities as we capture AI capitals but for now we need to specialize. Really. We need to specialize from the get go.

 

[Jersey Joe]

2 x five food tiles can help work 18 base hammers from 5 hills and the ivory with only 8 pop and do it sooner. How many population would Rome has to grow to have that kind of capacity?

Rome need to be setup as a commerce city since sooner than later, CM has to run farms and that may include converting a few cottages we work. We may find much better commerce cities as we capture AI capitals but for now we need to specialize. Really. We need to specialize from the get go.

Rome can do it with 9 pop, the cow plus 3 farms (wineries could replace farms for extra income). Rome will have at least a monument and granary built and be close to whipping a barracks, when we start clearing jungle . Rome can do this without needing to know calendar. So I do not think the jungle city will be done sooner.

However, I agree that Rome would be a good commerce city. I just do not like the idea Rome attempting to build a GS before Caput builds a GP. During that time Rome is effectively a size 2 city and might be able to build a granary. If Rome was not running 2 specialists it we could be using it to develop out economy and help with the settling other cities.

 

[Htadus]

This is basically a difference in our playing styles. I will plan out what I want to do and then determine the fastest route and get on it single mindedly. This has served me well in xotm's since I play with minimum use of the whip (mainly whip unhappy) or (I am sad to say) chopping. This usually include 2 GS's that will liberate Nationalism. In this game this strategy will payoff even more. So it is worth letting two pop work as scientists for 34 turns to get a GS. After all, 6 bpt regardless of the science rate is not a bad thing right?

But getting back to this game, the best build sequence for the Rome to function is monument, 2 archers, granary and library. The capital can build a settler in 5-6 turns, so it is capable of growing the empire. I am more interested in getting the next 2 cities settled. I do not think we should settle more than 5 cities total on our own. That is a size 10 capital.

 

[Ronnie1]

I am not against generating GS's!

I have not been able to generate a GS in Rome before Caput produces another GP.

I am also never against city specialization. I can be persuaded about the exact location of the jungle city. I never spare the whip however. Smaller cities require less maintenance, are easier to keep happy and fed, and quicker to grow back and be whippable again!

Which direction would we send an exploring boat if we had one, that we could not send a land unit along the coast?