SGOTM 23 - Unusual Suspects

[Deckhand]

PPP Turn 104 to 109
Oporto and Munich captured.
This feels a little like the end of WWII – we need to beat the Russians to the last German city.

Questions to be resolved before proceeding

Revolt to CS or wait for Monarchy?
Revolt to Bureaucracy plus Caste next turn? If so, whip in cities now:
Paris 1 pop catapult, Bordeaux no whip catapult, LeHavre 1 pop archer, Nice no whip catapult, Athens 1 pop spy, Rome no whip archer, Cologne 1 pop granary
Maybe not in Paris because no spare happiness?
Lisbon 6 turns disorder, Berlin 6 turns disorder

We could switch back to Slavery when we switch to Monarchy later or for a religion or use GP for big switches.

Advantage of Caste: faster border expansion in new cities w artists; and we don't need to build monuments (but we want to because Charismatic?);
maybe get sheep back from Hatty and fish from Churchill sooner?

Next Tech? (turn count will change with Bur)
Metal Casting (4 turns) – for Triremes and Forges (and Colossus – we now have lots of good water tiles)
Meditation (1), Priesthood (1), Monarchy (3) – for Hereditary Rule for super Bureau city
Aesthetics (3), Literature (2) – for Epics (Hatty has Great Library)
edit - Meditation/Philosophy or Paper are also possibilities

Adopt a Religion? - No

Mehmed will DOW Fred for 130 gold. I don't think a few turns of shared struggle is worth that.

Sell Techs!
Writing to Kubla for 10 gold
Currency to Everyone in this order:
Stalin - 100
Churchill - 80
Hatty - 90
Other Civs – 30, 20, 10, 20, 30
improve relations and get money (prices could drop as we sell)


Resource Trades
Mao: Silk for Sheep, Rice for Wheat
Darius: Corn for Cow
Sell copper when price is right. Present options Churchill (3) or Hatty (2). How much do we want and from whom?
edit, Churchill has axeman therefore he has iron, so ok to sell copper to him - will that make him like us?

Oporto – raze or keep? I vote keep.

Turnset details
Whips as approved.
Make Trades
End Turn

Revolt to Bureau (and Caste?)
Continue war vs neighbors.

See above for immediate city builds, after that:
Paris catapults
Bordeaux lighthouse, catapults
LeHavre galley (to spy on England), axes
Nice Galley, lighthouse
Athens granary, fishing boat, lighthouse, fishing boat
Rome granary, fishing boat, lighthouse
Cologne fishing boat, lighthouse
Lisbon 6 turns disorder,
Berlin 6 turns disorder



Workers
Lee Chin – finish cottage by LeHavre, quarry stone

new worker by Bordeaux – move to tile 1NE and cottage it because in Paris BFC, then return to current location and finish cottage

Portuguese worker 2N Oporto: get captured, finish road, chop forest, mine,

Paddy/CaseyJones/John Henry – finish road, 1 roads to Cologne and then to Istanbul, one returns to Paris to make cottages, one roads around Berlin so we can chop easily when borders expand


future (when cities out of revolt):
mine Berlin Copper, mine Oporto Iron
fort on Spice


Armies
Healthy units & all catapults head to neighbor cities to start bombarding (Munich border may pop before assault)
Wounded units heal a turn or two and then attack
Chase down Portuguese worker in So France
Kill wounded Portug axeman
pillage Oporto Iron
Take cities soonish

pillage Hamburg Sheep
don't pillage improved Berlin and Lisbon/Oporto improved tiles because cities have enough pop to start working them right away

Espionage
Keep on Hatty
(need 99 EP to see Russian demographics = 25+ turns at 4/t)

misc
Hamburg was captured turn 101
49 tiles (including cities) between Paris and The Far East
8 tiles between Berlin and Istanbul

What did I forget?

for future discussion
Before continuing after this turn,
We must decide upon victory condition and fastest path to Railroad + Railroads built + Victory
I favor heading to Far East thru Russia instead of Istanbul

 

[Deckhand]

Victory Condition

Domination – unavailable
Diplomatic UN – Tech to Mass Media, conquest much faster
Space – Tech all the way, conquest much faster
Culture – we should consider and calculate how soon
Religion – some team members think this is viable – how controllable? How soon?
Conquest – easy peasy, how soon?

Tech path depends on VC. Detour for Military Tradition might be worthwhile
Liberalism? Education/Liberalism not on path to Steam Power. Can we take Steam Power, Steel, or Railroad from Liberalism? Could be a reason to take out Hatty (to keep her from Liberalism).

 

[Ronnie1]

Comments in blue.

Check tile use in Athens.
Make super medic with GG and Chariot

Questions to be resolved before proceeding

Revolt to CS or wait for Monarchy?
Wait for Monarchy
Revolt to Bureaucracy plus Caste next turn? If so, whip in cities now:
I would stay in slavery and revolt to Bureaucracy and HR when available. I would not whip off pop right now as we will pick up happy faces in 4-5 turns. Maybe just slow growth a bit.
Paris 1 pop catapult, Bordeaux no whip catapult, LeHavre 1 pop archer, Nice no whip catapult, Athens 1 pop spy, Rome no whip archer, Cologne 1 pop granary
Maybe not in Paris because no spare happiness?
Lisbon 6 turns disorder, Berlin 6 turns disorder

Workers
Lee Chin – finish cottage by LeHavre, quarry stone

Why stone? Are we looking at stone wonders? Chop forests and move on imo.
New Bordeaux worker, cottage near Paris, then irrigate SW of wheat after CS.


Tech path, I like Polytheism(1) also opens Literature, Priesthood(1), Monarchy(3), but Monarchy may only be 2 with overflow.

Sell Techs!

Sell Polytheism and Priesthood

Turnset details
Whips as approved.
I prefer 2 pop whips and staying in Slavery as noted above.

 

[Zhary]

I think it's time to think about the long term again before revolting. Especially caste vs slavery. Is it time to make a some GPs with caste?
Personally I like in similar situations to go paper+edu bulb+Philo bulb->lib nat+tech gp. Third gp makes a GA that gives us drafted muskets. I doesn't have a computer so I can't do the math but it's not like there is any towns that Paris could work thanks to Hr.

 

[Deckhand]

OK, We will pause and decide tech path, civics, and timing before continuing.

BSPollux replied to a PM I sent him. RR path isn't quite as long as I counted.

Hi Pollux,

Just to be sure,
our rail line needs to reach the single tile labeled The Far East?
(two tiles east, one north of Nanjing)


thanks, deckhand

Nope, just any city you own in that "region" behind the sign that says "bridge to..."

So, Nanjing itself will do.
Perhaps there is another path in and other cities as well.
I will add the exploring units to my PPP.

 

[Deckhand]

I think it's time to think about the long term again before revolting. Especially caste vs slavery. Is it time to make a some GPs with caste?
Personally I like in similar situations to go paper+edu bulb+Philo bulb->lib nat+tech gp. Third gp makes a GA that gives us drafted muskets. I doesn't have a computer so I can't do the math but it's not like there is any towns that Paris could work thanks to Hr.

It might be better to wait for Lisbon to come out of revolt before starting great person generation.

 

[Ronnie1]

snip....but it's not like there is any towns that Paris could work thanks to Hr.

I don't understand this statement. HR is about being able to grow Paris to size16-20 so it can work all the awesome tiles we have created around it to max the 50% bonus of CS.

I don't like slavery now because we won't have a way to handle the unexpected threat.

 

[Zhary]

I mean that it feels like (it not caculated) that the 5 turns delay to tech monarchy is worth it. We could still revolt to Hr when we trade for monarchy.

But please what is your opinion on our game beyond 10 turns in the future?

 

[Ronnie1]

Perhaps there is another path in and other cities as well.

There may indeed be options east.

snip....gives us drafted muskets.

This is probably the fastest conquest imo. Hordes of two move muskets on this level should be easy enough.
I don't have a good enough feel for how religious vc works here.

I favor heading to Far East thru Russia instead of Istanbul

Nobody cares much for Stalin, so he won't get a lot of help in a war against us I don't think. Keeping him around may keep some of the other AI off our scent for a while longer.

From the game details.

Own a city at the Istanbul spot

We have to CAPTURE Istanbul at some point!

 

[Ronnie1]

But please what is your opinion on our game beyond 10 turns in the future?

I still think teching all the way to RR is the limiting factor on this level. With what we see now, no hidden civs or such, no paratroops or advanced units needed. Teching to Nationalism and then maybe MT. Conquer the map while teching to Lib for RR or teching RR directly.

 

[Ronnie1]

There are currently 17 techs required to get to RR. In addition, Nationalism and MT are off that path. Literature and Music (free GA for GA) are off that path. Education and Liberalism are also off that path.

Imo, the question becomes, does anything off the path + Nationalism (required) + MT (not required but Cuir's are great at this level) help speed up the path or chosen VC?

 

[kcd_swede]

I do not think conquest is faster than a diplomation win. There will be multiple cities to take every single last one of them, some on islands. We are talking >40 turns to move units alone. Perhaps with musketeers/cuirs/cavalry it comes out faster, but not obviously so. The rails will help, but I am remembering the nuke conquest sgotm where it took a good while when the necesssary tech was done.

Also, if conquest is the ultimate aim, taking/razing cities is paramount, as is eliminating strongest rivals completely. Which cities we take with our slow-moving units is irrelevant, just take/raze everything we can reach.

If we go diplo, we cAN HAVe one vasal vote for us. And any partners in warring. I think by the time we have RR, learning mass media is quick - quicker than the mop-up with units would be.

I'd guess that a combo of masive waring with the opportunity to end it with a vote is the fastest outcome.

And no, I do not think AP looks feasible, but things could break that way if a voting block forms.

For growing cities, CS is better than slavery, but in any end-game scenario, I think we are on a war footing the whole game - meaning I prefer slavery. Bur can wait until we have Monarchy for HR too. Only time for CS is when we are in golden age(s) to pump out more GPP. imo.

for tech, beeline monarchy and sell the cheapos. Then do the policy shifts. Then tech to gunpowder asap. Kill everyone that could be a viable opponent in diplo votes (would have to kill them anyhow if just conq), Hatty and Stalin must go. If that opens up the east, even better.

 

[Zhary]

If we going for Un then I think this needs to be our prio one tech goal not Rr. We have plenty of time to tech Rr and build the line while building Un and waiting for the votes. I think that conquest is faster than Un but not a if we find a way to get thing through.
If everyone is voting for monarchy for Hr now I'm OK with us taking the vc discussion in five turns instead.

 

[Deckhand]

OK, I think we have a consensus. Wait for HR to switch civics. Don't whip now.

Any thoughts about selling Copper?

PPP Turn 104 to 109
Oporto and Munich captured.
This feels a little like the end of WWII – we need to beat the Russians to the last German city.

Questions to be resolved before proceeding

Revolt to CS or wait for Monarchy? wait
Revolt to Bureaucracy plus Caste next turn? no

We could switch back to Slavery when we switch to Monarchy later or for a religion or use GP for big switches.

Advantage of Caste: faster border expansion in new cities w artists; and we don't need to build monuments (but we want to because Charismatic?);
maybe get sheep back from Hatty and fish from Churchill sooner?

Next Tech? (turn count will change with Bur)
Metal Casting (4 turns) – for Triremes and Forges (and Colossus – we now have lots of good water tiles)
Meditation (1), Priesthood (1), Monarchy (3) – for Hereditary Rule for super Bureau city
Aesthetics (3), Literature (2) – for Epics (Hatty has Great Library)
edit - Meditation/Philosophy or Paper are also possibilities




Adopt a Religion? - No

Mehmed will DOW Fred for 130 gold. I don't think a few turns of shared struggle is worth that.

Sell Techs!
Writing to Kubla for 10 gold
Currency to Everyone in this order:
Stalin - 100
Churchill - 80
Hatty - 90
Other Civs – 30, 20, 10, 20, 30
improve relations and get money (prices could drop as we sell)
Sell Polytheism and Priesthood


Resource Trades
Mao: Silk for Sheep, Rice for Wheat
Darius: Corn for Cow
Sell copper when price is right. Present options Churchill (3) or Hatty (2). How much do we want and from whom?
edit, Churchill has axeman therefore he has iron, so ok to sell copper to him - will that make him like us?

Oporto – raze or keep? I vote keep.

Turnset details
Whips as approved.
Make Trades
End Turn

Revolt to Bureau (and Caste?)
Continue war vs neighbors.

city builds,
in queue:
Paris catapult,
Bordeaux catapult,
LeHavre archer,
Nice catapult,
Athens spy,
Rome archer,
Cologne granary
Lisbon 6 turns disorder, Berlin 6 turns disorder

after that:
Paris catapults
Bordeaux lighthouse, catapults
LeHavre galley (to spy on England), axes
Nice Galley, lighthouse
Athens granary, fishing boat, lighthouse, fishing boat
Rome granary, fishing boat, lighthouse
Cologne fishing boat, lighthouse
Lisbon 6 turns disorder,
Berlin 6 turns disorder



Workers
Lee Chin – finish cottage by LeHavre,
quarry stone so we can sell it, or Chop forests and move on?

new worker by Bordeaux – move to tile 1NE and cottage it because in Paris BFC, then return to current location and finish cottage
New Bordeaux worker, cottage near Paris, then irrigate SW of wheat after CS.

Portuguese worker 2N Oporto: get captured, finish road, chop forest, mine,

Paddy/CaseyJones/John Henry – finish road, 1 roads to Cologne and then to Istanbul, one returns to Paris to make cottages, one roads around Berlin so we can chop easily when borders expand


future (when cities out of revolt):
mine Berlin Copper, mine Oporto Iron
fort on Spice


Armies
Healthy units & all catapults head to neighbor cities to start bombarding (Munich border may pop before assault)
Wounded units heal a turn or two and then attack
Chase down Portuguese worker in So France
Kill wounded Portug axeman
pillage Oporto Iron
Take cities soonish

pillage Hamburg Sheep
don't pillage improved Berlin and Lisbon/Oporto improved tiles because cities have enough pop to start working them right away
Chariot 2 explore India, SEA; Chariot 3 explore Egypt, North Africa; Wandering Warrior explore North Coast of Far East; btw looks like Bridge is only way in, so Nanjing is where we need to build to.
Make super medic with GG and Chariot

Espionage
Keep on Hatty
(need 99 EP to see Russian demographics = 25+ turns at 4/t)

misc
Hamburg was captured turn 101
47 tiles (including cities) between Paris and The Far East
8 tiles between Berlin and Istanbul
Check tile use each city each turn.

What did I forget?
Did I miss any suggestions?

for future discussion
Before continuing after this turn,
We must decide upon victory condition and fastest path to Railroad + Railroads built + Victory
I favor heading to Far East thru Russia instead of Istanbul
UN vs Conquest to be discussed.

 

[Ronnie1]

Tech path.

You still have Meditation listed. I prefer Polytheism, we could get both, it cheapens Priesthood and we need both for Literature and Nationhood.

I don't really care, the difference would be if we were considering a quick run to one of those techs for drafting or or the Epics.

What did I forget?
Did I miss any suggestions?

The Great General. We get cheaper promos as Charismatic, so we get the 4th promo at 13XP, we can use the GG on the medic chariot for our supermedic and give 1 other unit 10XP.

Green on the rest, I will leave troop builds to your discretion based on losses and need.

 

[Deckhand]

Tech path.

You still have Meditation listed. I prefer Polytheism, we could get both, it cheapens Priesthood and we need both for Literature and Nationhood.

I don't really care, the difference would be if we were considering a quick run to one of those techs for drafting or or the Epics.


The Great General. We get cheaper promos as Charismatic, so we get the 4th promo at 13XP, we can use the GG on the medic chariot for our supermedic and give 1 other unit 10XP.

Green on the rest, I will leave troop builds to your discretion based on losses and need.

I did miss the GG in original PPP. But he is in current one.

Open questions:
Raze Oporto? No
Meditation or Polytheism or Both? Meditation for fastest Monarchy (?)
Sell Copper? No
Adopt a Religion? No
Quarry stone? Not yet
Spread GG across two units? I like to give my GG medics the extra move promotion. Didn't think of the Charismatic discount. - Who should get the other 10 pts experience?

 

[Deckhand]

Deckhand: 0 - 5, 70-82, UP
nocho: 5-20,
Ronnie1: 20 - 40, 55-70, 90-99
Zhary: 40 - 54
kcd_swede: 83 - 89, 100-104

Time Zones, pls correct if wrong:
GMT+1: Zhary, kcd_swede, nocho
GMT-7: Ronnie1, deckhand (daylight savings)

 

[Ronnie1]

Both Med and Poly show 1 turn, but Med will obviously overflow more beakers into Priesthood.

 

[Zhary]

Green

Edit:And I agree with your answers to the open questions.

 

[kcd_swede]

Deckhand: 0 - 5, 70-82, UP
nocho: 5-20,
Ronnie1: 20 - 40, 55-70, 90-99
Zhary: 40 - 54
kcd_swede: 83 - 89, 100-104

Time Zones, pls correct if wrong:
GMT+1: Zhary, kcd_swede, nocho
GMT-7: Ronnie1, deckhand (daylight savings)

We are GMT+2 in summer time. UTC (Zulu time) is 1544 and the clocks in Sweden say 1744.

Golf Romeo Echo Echo November