SGOTM 23 - Xteam

I did a test of settling West
What was the order of your Worker 1's actions? I was short by 2 Hammers for getting our Paris Library on the turn where you got it, but I did do more Roading than I should have with Worker 1, so perhaps whatever you did helped us to grow Paris faster, thereby getting us our Library 1 turn faster.

It strikes me that we should be able to play up until about 3 turns from learning Writing and before moving Settler 2 while still keeping both options open, as, if needed, we could still switch to researching Fishing before finishing Writing if we later choose to skip the Library. In other words, we can fight later, as long as we're doing the same order of improvements with our Worker 1.


Paris will get a GS on turn 63.
It should be Turn 64 when we factor in the turn of Anarchy for Slavery, I believe.
 
What was the order of your Worker 1's actions? I was short by 2 Hammers for getting our Paris Library on the turn where you got it, but I did do more Roading than I should have with Worker 1, so perhaps whatever you did helped us to grow Paris faster, thereby getting us our Library 1 turn faster.
On t23-3160BC a citizen switched from working the fur to work the deer.
Worker
  • Moved to and camped deer;
  • Moved 1NW Farmed/Stop
  • Moved 1SW; 1W to river fur and camped fur
  • Roaded fur
  • Moved 1SE and completed partial road. This let me build Orleans sooner, but I was thinking that maybe moving from fur NE to cow to start pasturing earlier might be better.
  • Moved from road 1N; 1NE; 1NE Cow and pastured.
  • Moved SW and pastured Orleans' cow and roaded the cow
  • Move on road 1N; 1NE; 1SE G Farm
  • Moved to horse and pastured
t34-2640BC Paris grows to size 4 an I had a citizen work a forest tile until the cow pasture was finished.
It strikes me that we should be able to play up until about 3 turns from learning Writing and before moving Settler 2 while still keeping both options open, as, if needed, we could still switch to researching Fishing before finishing Writing if we later choose to skip the Library. In other words, we can fight later, as long as we're doing the same order of improvements with our Worker 1.
Once I learned fishing, Orleans worked the fish for 2 commerce and lost 1 hammer.
It should be Turn 64 when we factor in the turn of Anarchy for Slavery, I believe.
You are correct I did not take into account anarchy.
 
Here is a ppp that stops when we are 1 turn away from learning writing.
T17-3320BC
Choose Writing
Warrior 1S

T18-3280BC
Worker 1N G; 1NE G Forest deer
Warrior searches for prey by circling Germany

T19-3240BC
Worker camps deer
Citizen works wheat
Citizen works fur

T20-3200BC
Worker camps deer
citizen wheat
citizen fur

T21-3160BC
worker camps deer
citizen wheat
citizen shifts work from fur to deer

T22-3120BC
Warrior 1 > Settler
worker camps deer
citizen wheat
citizen deer
citizen fur
Warrior 1 Fortifies in Paris

T23-3080
Worker 1NW G Farm STOP farming
citizen wheat
citizen deer
citizen fur

T24-3040
Worker 1SW G; 1W G Forest fur
citizen wheat
citizen deer
citizen fur

T25-3000
Worker camps fur
citizen wheat
citizen deer
citizen fur

T26-2960
Worker camps fur
citizen wheat
citizen deer
citizen fur

T27-2920
Worker camps fur
citizen wheat
citizen deer
citizen fur

T28-2880
Worker camps fur
citizen wheat
citizen deer
citizen fur

T29-2840
worker roads fur
citizen wheat
citizen deer
citizen fur
 
On t23-3160BC a citizen switched from working the fur to work the deer.
Worker
  • Moved to and camped deer;
  • Moved 1NW Farmed/Stop
  • Moved 1SW; 1W to river fur and camped fur
  • Roaded fur
  • Moved 1SE and completed partial road. This let me build Orleans sooner, but I was thinking that maybe moving from fur NE to cow to start pasturing earlier might be better.
  • Moved from road 1N; 1NE; 1NE Cow and pastured.
  • Moved SW and pastured Orleans' cow and roaded the cow
  • Move on road 1N; 1NE; 1SE G Farm
  • Moved to horse and pastured
t34-2640BC Paris grows to size 4 an I had a citizen work a forest tile until the cow pasture was finished.Once I learned fishing, Orleans worked the fish for 2 commerce and lost 1 hammer.
So, here's what I see happening:
We trade 2 Food for 2 Commerce, but then we we grow via building the Library. I wonder if taking the Food would have helped us to grow one City Size sooner, which could have earned us extra Hammers (G For) or Commerce (G Riv).
We get Settler 2 on Turn 31
We settle on Turn 32
We start on a Work Boat on Turn 34, unless we found a way to get Writing + Fishing by Turn 33 by getting some extra Commerce temporarily (now I'm guessing why the trade of more Commerce instead of Food).
We appear to save a Worker action by Roading the Fur when we're Camping it, but then we move to the far north-east and then to the far south-west to improve the 2 Cows, spending several Worker turns moving to and from the far ends of our empire.
City 2 doesn't get its G Cow improved for a while, so we delay growth in City 2.
We end up working a 3-Food square (an unimproved G Cow) for a while--pick a City in which to work a Cow while the other City works the Fur.
Playing it out until Turn 41, 2360 BC, we have:
Paris at Size 6 with 20 Food
52 Hammers in Paris' Library

City 2 at Size 1 with 18 / 22 Food
18 Hammers total in City 2

We have 129 / 448 Flasks in Alphabet and 0 Gold (I wasn't using Binary Science, sorry, but was staying at as high of a Science Rate as possible--90% after settling City 2)

Now, consider what happens when we improve the Fur first and then the Cow.
Once we settle City 2, Paris can work the Wheat, the Pastured Cow, and the 4-input Deer instead of a 3-input Cow.
Meanwhile, after Pasturing the north-east Cow, we return to the Fur and build the Road there, which allows us to move along the Road that gets completed between the Fur and City 2, directly starting to Pasture the 2nd G Cow on the turn that City 2 gets settled, allowing us to grow City 2 faster.
Meanwhile, Paris grows and can take over the Fur while City 2 is working the Pastured G Cow, having Paris working 3 improved squares plus the 4-input Deer.

On Turn 41, 2360 BC, we have:
Paris at Size 6 with 8 Food
51 Hammers in Paris' Library

City 2 at Size 2 with 4 Food
22 Hammers total in City 2

We have 131 / 448 Flasks in Alphabet and 25 Gold
EDIT: For comparison's sake, 162 Flasks and 0 Gold if we stay at a 90% Science Rate


One additional consequence of delaying Pasturing City 2's Cow is delaying its Work Boat.


Overall, it feels as though we're falling behind by Camping the Deer and then Camping the Fur.


I do think that it's a very creative way to try to get us Alphabet plus our Great Scientist 1 turn sooner.
 
Borrowing a couple of micro ideas from Jersey Joe, we can get our 2nd Cow up soon and still get our earlier Library. Note that in the attached game, I didn't micro Binary Research, so I'm not sure when we'd get Alphabet,but we got our Turn 46 Library. Better Binary Research micro would mean more turns of earning at a 100% Science Rate after having our Library built.
EDIT: In the updated attached test game, we came pretty close to Turn 51 Alphabet but we had too much Gold, so we'll just need to figure out on which turns it would be best to be at a 0% Science Rate... but, those turns will happen after we learn Writing + Fishing, so we don't need to figure out that detail before playing forward some turns.


T17-3320BC
Choose Writing
Warrior 1S

T18-3280BC
Worker 1NW G Riv; 1NW G Riv Fur Forest
Warrior searches for prey by circling Germany

T19-3240BC
Worker camps fur
Citizen works wheat
Citizen works deer

T20-3200BC
Worker camps fur
citizen wheat
citizen deer

T21-3160BC
worker camps fur
citizen wheat
citizen deer

T22-3120BC
Warrior 1 > Settler
worker camps fur
citizen wheat
citizen deer
citizen fur
Warrior 1 Heads toward the Green AI... we really should check out if there's a chance to steal a Worker given how we weren't able to steal an early one from Germany. We'll only need our Warrior back in Paris when we hit Size 6, so we have some turns to play with.

T23-3080
Worker 1E G Riv (1 W of Paris) > 1 NE G Riv (1 N of Paris)
citizen wheat
citizen deer
citizen fur

T24-3040
Worker 1 NE G Cow > Pasture the G Cow
citizen wheat
citizen deer
citizen fur

T25-3000
Worker pastures cow
citizen wheat
citizen deer
citizen fur

T26-2960
Worker pastures cow
citizen wheat
citizen deer
citizen fur

T27-2920
Worker pastures cow
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen switches deer > fur

T28-2880
Writing > Fishing
Open Borders with any AI who isn't the Worst Enemy of another AI that we know
Worker moves 1 SW G Riv (1 N of Paris) > into Paris
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen fur

T29-2840
worker move 1 SW G Riv (1 SW of Paris) > Road (complete it)
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen fur

T30-2800
worker move 1 NW G Riv Fur For
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen fur (not switching to the deer for overflow Hammers from Settler 2 going into a Library)

T31-2760
worker road fur
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen fur

T32-2720
Before we play past this turn, we should figure out on which turns we will be at 0% Science
We should also figure out what we're going to do with our Missionary
Built Settler > Library
worker finishes road on the fur before Settler 2 moves
With the Road completed, Settler can move to western location within this 1 turn
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen fur

T33-2680
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
city 2 citizen fur
city 2 builds work boat

T34-2640
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
city 2 citizen fur

T35-2600
Paris Size 4
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen G Forest
city 2 citizen fur

T36-2560
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
city 2 pastured cow

T37-2520
worker moves NE G > E G Riv Road (1 SW of Paris)
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
city 2 cow

T38-2480
worker moves 1 E G Riv (1 S of Paris) > 1 NE G Riv Deer For
Paris Size 5 (Warrior 2 has 4 turns to get back to Paris)
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
citizen G Forest
city 2 cow

T39-2440
worker camp deer
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
citizen G Forest
city 2 cow

T40-2400
worker camp deer
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
citizen G Forest
City 2 is Size 2
city 2 cow
city 2 G Forest

T41-2360
worker camp deer
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
citizen G Forest
city 2 cow
city 2 G Forest

T42-2320
worker camp deer (finished)
Paris Size 6--Library in exactly 4 turns with 0 Hammers to spare, so our Warrior must be back in Paris by now
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
citizen G Forest
citizen G Forest
city 2 cow
city 2 G Forest

T43-2280
city 2 built Work Boat > Library to dump Hammers temporarily?
worker road deer? (EDIT: It will be better to move 1 N G For (1 NE of Paris) and Road there, then pFarm 1 SW of Paris, pRoad the G Horse, Pasture the G Horse, then complete the G Horse Road, since our Deer is already connected via being on a River)
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
citizen G Forest
citizen G Forest
city 2 cow
city 2 netted fish

T44-2240
worker road deer (completed)
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
citizen G Forest
citizen G Forest
city 2 cow
city 2 fish

T45-2200
worker moves 1 W into Paris > 1 SW G Riv Road > Farms and STOPS
Paris is Size 7 (I suppose that we ended up with 1 extra Hammer going into the Library, which will overflow into Settler 3, or we could work a G Riv if we need the extra Commerce)
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
citizen G Forest
citizen G Forest
citizen G Forest... maybe a G Riv?
City 2 is Size 3
City 2 builds Settler 3
city 2 cow
city 2 fish
city 2 G Forest

T46-2160
Paris builds Library > Settler 4
worker moves 1 NW G Riv Fur Road For > 1 NW G Horse > Roads
The same citizen assignments as we build our two Settlers

T47-2120
worker road G Horse (completes it)

T48-2080
worker pastures G Horse thanks to the Library's Culture

With better Binary Science and probably working a G Riv square instead of a G For square in Paris for the last turn of building the Library plus when building the Settler, we can probably pull off a Turn-51 Alphabet, although it will be quite tight.
 

Attachments

Has anyone noticed that there is potentially a site south/southwest of wheat grabbing a few currently unused ghills.
 
We do know that holy cities exist. If a Holy city did not exist it would show as "none" not "unknown" on the religion screen.
Great observation and conclusion!

For Religion to spread, we need a Trade Network connection to the Holy City of that Religion and we must not be at war with the player who controls the Holy City. Note that a Trade Network connection is not the same thing as a Trade Route.

For example, in one Always War game in the Warlords Expansion, where adopting a State Religion where you have the Holy City gives you visibility of all Cities of that Religion on the map, I founded Confucianism. I had intentionally avoided meeting the AIs in that game as meeting them meant that I'd automatically declare war on them, but not meeting them mean that they would keep building peacefully (the way that Always War works in BtS may or may not have changed). But, on one turn, I met a far away AI only because my Religion spread to that AI, even though I hadn't revealed that area of the map prior to my Religion spreading in that City. So, once Sailing is ours, we will start having the chance for Religions to spread to us, depending mostly on how far away the Holy Cities are located.


Has anyone noticed that there is potentially a site south/southwest of wheat grabbing a few currently unused ghills.
It's certainly a great item to notice and point out.

We could settle 1 S of the Wheat (to share more Cottages with the capital and to have lowered Maintenance) or 1 S + 1 SW of the Wheat (to pick up +1 GH square), but we can't settle 1 SW of the Wheat due to City 2 being too close to that location.

Since the City does not add any new Resources (at least of Resources that we have revealed), it could make for a decent City 5. It could also make for a decent City for gifting to an AI if we want to steal some techs from a chosen AI, particularly if we settle 1 S of the Wheat, to be surrounded by the Culture of many of our nearby Cities.

By the way, our test game seems to have a Corn, but I could have sworn that the real game had a Wheat.

I don't foresee the Barbs capturing a City from us in this game, at least not in our core area.

We could let another AI capture a gifted City (you can't Culture Flip a City that you gifted, but if that City gets captured by another AI, then you can Culture Flip it).

Or, with enough surrounding Culture, the AI might gift the City back to us. I believe that it is on turn 4 of owning the City where the AI decides whether to gift the City back to us based on us owning a majority of the squares within that City's big fat cross (that's a BtS-only thing, I believe related to City Liberation). Turn 4 is a hard-coded value, and there's a periodic check that happens every X number of turns afterward (10 turns?) to perform that check again, but I'm fuzzy on the details.


Note that I edited in multiple test games in my message above to show some of the main steps that throw together ideas from multiple team members, getting us a really strong opening.
 
<snip>With better Binary Science and probably working a G Riv square instead of a G For square in Paris for the last turn of building the Library plus when building the Settler, we can probably pull off a Turn-51 Alphabet, although it will be quite tight.
You are ahead of me in research at t32-2720BC (which is when I founded city 2). I started learning Alphabet turn 34 (I was at 0% research turn 32). I also went to 0% research on turn 46. If we do 2 turns at 0% research starting on t33 we might learn alphabet by Turn-50.
 
@Dhoomstriker: "T28-2880
Writing > Fishing
Open Borders with any AI who isn't the Worst Enemy of another AI that we know"

If we give Fred Open Borders, would not stealing a Worker from him then damage our reputation? Should we bring the warrior prowling around Germany home?
 
You are ahead of me in research at t32-2720BC (which is when I founded city 2). I started learning Alphabet turn 34 (I was at 0% research turn 32). I also went to 0% research on turn 46. If we do 2 turns at 0% research starting on t33 we might learn alphabet by Turn-50.
Interesting theory. Along those lines, 1 turn before building our Library, Paris could be working a G Riv square. Once City 2 hits Size 3, it could also be working a G Riv square, if the combination of doing so gets us the Flasks that we need. I believe that Paris' Settler comes out 1 turn slower and City 2's Settler comes out at the same time as it would by working a G For square, so it's an option worth checking out.

I did sort of just try it out (not fully, as we still had 7 Gold on Turn 51, but close enough to see), and we only had 1 overflow Flask on Turn 51 by working those G Riv squares (except for working a G For square on the turn when we completed the Library), so Turn 50 is not going to be possible and Turn 51 should be our target Alphabet date.


@Dhoomstriker: "T28-2880
Writing > Fishing
Open Borders with any AI who isn't the Worst Enemy of another AI that we know"

If we give Fred Open Borders, would not stealing a Worker from him then damage our reputation? Should we bring the warrior prowling around Germany home?
I'm not quite sure what people's knowledge about Open Borders is, so here are some relevant statements about Open Borders, some of which may seem obvious, but it's often the seemingly obvious ones where there is confusion, as people don't think to ask about what they believe to be "obvious." Please let me know if you feel that there is still some concern after reading these items.

1. In order to Open Borders with each other, one of the set of two players (AI + AI or Human + AI) must know Writing

2. Once two players Open Borders with each other, the agreement can only be cancelled peacefully after 10 turns or more have passed

3. Once two players Open Borders with each other, the agreement can be cancelled at any time by a declaration for war

4. If we move a unit into the territory of an AI with whom we do not have Open Borders, the game gives us a shortcut method of declaring war by asking us if we want to declare war. This method of declaring war is not the official way of declaring war and it is just a shortcut. This shortcut will FAIL if we have Open Borders with that AI and instead, our unit will simply peacefully move right on top of that AI's Worker, which is almost certainly not what we wanted to do

5. If we have Open Borders with an AI and we want to declare war on that AI, the preferred approach to do so is to bring up the diplomacy screen with that AI (I do so by a round-about method due to point 6 below), such as by opening up the F4 GLANCE screen and right-clicking on that Leader's portrait picture. Then choose the "Let's discuss something else..." option, followed by choosing the "Your head would look good on a pole. (WAR)" option, followed by clicking on the "Yes, DECLARE WAR!" confirmation button

6. Due to what several people on these forums call a bad shortcut command, if you hold down Alt when you click your mouse on a Leader's name in the Scoreboard (i.e. on the list of Leaders at the bottom right of the main game screen where we see which State Religion each AI is running and how many Cities that AI controls), it is an automatic declaration of war! This fact is very dangerous; sometimes a stray finger can be holding down the Alt key. Sometimes a keyboard will stick and hold down an Alt key. Sometimes the Alt key won't even be pressed and Civ 4 will mess up and believe that the Alt key is currently being pressed--TheMeInTeam is one player who has complained that Civ 4 sometimes goofs up about which keys on the keyboard are currently being pressed. In a game where you have decided to accept AI 1's request to stop trading with AI 2, you can't talk with AI 2, so Alt + Clicking on AI 2's Leader name in the scoreboard is one way to still be able to declare war on AI 2, but I believe that the shortcut for declaring war should have been a lot harder to accidentally perform and should have at least come with the same confirmation prompt. Regardless of how I would have changed the Civ 4 UI, Alt + Clicking on a Leader's name is one way to ruin a game. With no reloading in SGOTM, the safer way to talk with an AI is to open the F4 GLANCE screen and right-click on that AI's name. Alt + Clicking or Alt + Right-Clicking from the F4 GLANCE screen won't automatically declare war on an AI. However, be warned that the F4 RELATIONS screen CAN be used with Alt + Right-Clicking to automatically declare war. The F4 GLANCE screen is where the action is at anyway, and while the F4 RELATIONS screen gives as pretty graph, all of the F4 RELATIONS screen's info is available on the F4 GLANCE screen via hover text.

Summary: The F4 GLANCE screen is the safe screen for Right-Clicking on a Leader's name to open up diplomacy with that AI.

7. When we declare war on an AI 1, any other AI who has met AI 1 (regardless of whether those other AIs have met us or not) who has a Diplo Attitude of Pleased or Friendly toward AI 1 will hate us by -1 (although there is one AI Leader--Gandhi--with a DECLARED_WAR_ON_FRIEND value of -200, which means that that AI would hate us by -2). If another AI has not yet met AI 1 but that other AI will be immediately Pleased or Friendly toward AI 1 upon meeting each other, there is no Diplo penalty incurred with that other AI for declaring war on AI 1 because the two of them weren't friends at the time of the war declaration. Similarly, if you can manipulate AI-AI Diplomacy such that the other AI will fall to a Diplo Attitude of Cautious or lower toward AI 1, then that other AI won't give us a -1 Diplo penalty for declaring war on his/her friend (the word "friend" is used for the other AI being either Pleased or Friendly toward AI 1, regardless of what AI 1 has as a Diplo Attitude toward that other AI)

8. If we have Open Borders with Frederick and we don't see a Worker-stealing opportunity, we could theoreteically go in and out of his Cultural Borders to keep an eye on where his units are located and to see where he might send his Worker next. Be warned that we don't want to end up missing out on a Worker-stealing possibility by being inside of Germany's Cultural Borders, as, when we declare war while being inside of Germany's Cultural Borders, there's a good chance that we would teleport outside of the Cultural Borders to an undesired location. We also don't want to accidentally rush to get outside of the Cultural Borders and then immediately declare war when we are adjacent to a Worker, forgetting that we have 0 movement points with which to capture a Worker and then the Worker gets away

9. There's a chance that even if we steal a Worker, the AI will retaliate and if the AI wins, it could even capture the Worker back from us. Usually an AI will keep 2 defenders in its capital, but that AI might send out one of those defenders to attack a unit (our Warrior) when that defender has greater than 50% odds of winning the fight against us. If there are 3 or more units inside of the AI's capital at the time, one of those units is very likely to come after us, and it will depend upon the layout of existing Roads and Rivers as to whether that unit can attack us or not. If we are going to steal a Worker, we should stop play and discuss the situation, so that we can figure out the safest way to execute the plan

10. iRefuseToTalkWarThreshold (values are between 5 and 12):
Frederick = 6
Joao = 8
Mehmed = 8
Suleiman = 8

In combination with War Success, that number determines how many turns it will take for that AI to talk with us again. The more War Success that we have, the less turns that it will take. The less War Success that we have, the more turns that it will take.

After being able to talk with the AI upon whom you declared war, you can Cease Fire if the AI doesn't want anything for Peace. If the AI wants something for Peace, you can't Cease Fire but you can try to earn more War Success so that the AI would be willing to make Peace without us giving the AI anything, meaning that the AI would also be willing to Cease Fire at that point.

11. When it comes to Cease Firing or getting a Peace Treaty, what you want to do is talk with the Leader, choose "We would like to make a trade proposal," then when only "Cease Fire" is on the trading table, click on "Let us bury the hatchet. What's the price for peace?"

Doing so will tell you whether that AI wants something from us (we didn't get enough War Success in the war), that AI will give us something (the AI actually has something to give--which is rare before learning Alphabet and/or Currency) to us (we got a decent amount of War Success in the war), or that AI will simply trade Peace Treaty for Peace Treaty (the AI thinks that we don't owe it anything and we are either "equal" in the war or else the AI thinks that we are ahead in the war but it has nothing to offer us to make up the difference).

From there, we click on the "Peace Treaty (10 Turns)" item to remove it from the trading table, we possibly dismiss a pop-up message warning about not leaving things on one side of the trading table when removing the Peace Treaty (10 Turns) item, and we will know whether we can take a Cease Fire or not.

12. The only real difference between a Cease Fire and a Peace Treaty is that with a Cease Fire, either side can choose to redeclare war within the next 10 turns. The AIs are programmed to rely on 10 turns of enforced peace, so they are vulnerable to Cease Fires.

13. The 10 turns of enforced Peace with a Peace Treaty are there to prevent either side from choosing to declare war. If the Apostolic Palace forces a war, I'm pretty sure that the 10 turns of enforced Peace rule will not count, as it wasn't technically the player's choice to get into the war (regardless of how the player voted in the AP election, it was still a decision by a group of players from a gameplay standpoint, although that argument wouldn't hold any weight in real life).

14. When declaring war on an AI with whom we have Open Borders when our unit is inside of that AI's Cultural Borders, we could theoretically figure out onto which square our unit would teleport if we declared war; but, if there happens to be a unit of that AI's on that square or a Barb unit on that square, we'd teleport elsewhere; let's not rely on teleporting and therefore let's try not to miss out on a Worker-stealing opportunity by being too deep within AI Culture--a Worker could complete a Road in 2 turns before we could even get back into position. That said, it can also be helpful to go a little bit in and out of an AI's Culture, particularly onto a Hills square, just to see if we can figure out where that AI's Worker is and/or will go next.

15. There is no special rule about an AI getting extra mad at us for declaring war on them when we have an Open Borders agreement with that AI

16. That said, there is a CANCELLED_OPEN_BORDERS variable that is set to 10 for every AI, so an AI might wait for several turns before Opening Borders again if we cancel an Open Borders agreement with said AI manually or via war. I think that this penalty is fine to pay as:
i. The AI might treat us as their Worst Enemy after the war (at least until we gift it some techs) and thus might not want to Open Borders with us anyway, and
ii. The potential to get extra info on where the AI sends its Worker in order to put us in a better position to steal a Worker is worth this small delay in Re-Opening Borders should we happen to have a very short war

I'm not totally sure what the number 10 means, but I think that it means that every turn, the AI makes a dice roll of 0 through 9 and if it gets 0, it forgets about us cancelling the Open Borders agreement with it, while it won't agree to a new Open Borders agreement if it still remembers that we cancelled an Open Borders agreement with it. The other possibility is that it is a straight-up 10-turn wait, but I believe that the first theory is the right one, as my memory recalls a seemingly random amount of time for when an AI might want to Re-Open Borders with us.
 
Here is my revised ppp:
T17-3320BC
Choose Writing
Warrior 1S

T18-3280BC
Worker 1NW G Riv; 1NW G Riv Fur Forest
Warrior searches for prey by circling Germany

T19-3240BC
Worker camps fur
Citizen works wheat
Citizen works deer

T20-3200BC
Worker camps fur
citizen wheat
citizen deer

T21-3160BC
worker camps fur
citizen wheat
citizen deer

T22-3120BC
Warrior 1 > Settler
worker camps fur
citizen wheat
citizen deer
citizen fur
Warrior 1 Heads toward the Green AI... we really should check out if there's a chance to steal a Worker given how we weren't able to steal an early one from Germany. We'll only need our Warrior back in Paris when we hit Size 6, so we have some turns to play with.

T23-3080
Worker 1E G Riv (1 W of Paris) > 1 NE G Riv (1 N of Paris)
citizen wheat
citizen deer
citizen fur

T24-3040
Worker 1 NE G Cow > Pasture the G Cow
citizen wheat
citizen deer
citizen fur

T25-3000
Worker pastures cow
citizen wheat
citizen deer
citizen fur

T26-2960
Worker pastures cow
citizen wheat
citizen deer
citizen fur

T27-2920
Worker pastures cow
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen switches deer > fur

T28-2880
Writing > Fishing
Open Borders with any AI who isn't the Worst Enemy of another AI that we know (see below for question)
Worker moves 1 SW G Riv (1 N of Paris) > into Paris
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen fur

T29-2840
worker move 1 SW G Riv (1 SW of Paris) > Road (complete it)
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen fur

T30-2800
worker move 1 NW G Riv Fur For
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen fur (not switching to the deer for overflow Hammers from Settler 2 going into a Library)

T31-2760
worker road fur
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen fur
End of ppp next turn is about decisions.
T32-2720
Before we play past this turn, we should figure out on which turns we will be at 0% Science
We should also figure out what we're going to do with our Missionary
Built Settler > Library
worker finishes road on the fur before Settler 2 moves
With the Road completed, Settler can move to western location within this 1 turn
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen fur
T28-2880: Should I wait for the AIs to ask for open borders, should I offer open borders to all AIs we know, or offer open borders to Churchill and wait for the others to ask?

Short term for the missionary: When worker moves to fur on T30-2800 to road, the missionary's no longer need there to spawn bust. So missionary moves to the scout's location to spawn bust and the scout explores easterly to sheep and beyond towards Greek border. Longer term (before Paris is size 8) missionary spreads Christianity to Paris.
 
We won't know if warrior can circle Germany until we look, could be blocked by mountains and/or AI borders so we might need to revise this.

I don't really undrstand the focus on spawn busting western borders when we have 8-9 eastern tiles than won't be cleared until Germany pops borders, probably t34-35.
 
Should I wait for the AIs to ask for open borders, should I offer open borders to all AIs we know, or offer open borders to Churchill and wait for the others to ask?
As far as AIs are concerned, they only randomly choose when to ask you to Open Borders with them. Some are more aggressive about asking. Also, it seems that when you learn a key tech or complete a key Wonder, that fact may trigger an AI to contact you, making such a contact a little bit less random.

But, the point is that an AI asking us versus us asking an AI has no gameplay difference.

So, we should decide when to do the asking, as waiting for the AI to ask about Open Borders does not help.

The same is not true about switching to an AI's State Religion or switching to an AI's Favourite Civic, as when an AI asks you to do those things, there is a Diplomatic Attitude reward for agreeing and for most AIs, there is a Diplomatic Attitude penalty for refusing. But, for Open Borders, there is no benefit to waiting for an AI to ask us.


What are some of the implications of Opening Borders?
1. An AI who knows Sailing will get Foreign Trade Routes with us. England will likely get 3-Commerce Trade Routes for being on a different landmass, which will speed up that AI's tech rate. This fact could be good if the AI is teching techs that we want to get in trade, such as Masonry, but could be bad if the AI is teching techs that we know, such as Animal Husbandry or Writing.
2. An AI, such as England, who may be trapped by our Cultural Borders, may send out Work Boats to meet additional AIs. If an AI knows 0 other AIs, we cannot trade with that AI. If an AI knows a lot of other AIs, it will be harder to get techs from that AI until many of the other AIs whom it has met also learn such a tech. That said, if say, England sends out a Work Boat through our Cultural Borders, England is not likely to meet a lot of AIs, as England wouldn't be able to Open Borders with another AI until England or the other AI learns Writing
3. If AI 1 treats the AI with whom we Open Borders (AI 2) as their Worst Enemy, 10 turns or more after we Open Borders with AI 2, AI 1 can demand that we cancel our deals with AI 1. If we aren't making any trades with AI 2 (Open Borders counts as a trade), then AI 1 can't demand that we cancel our deals with AI 2.
4. If we Open Borders with an AI, such as Germany or the Green AI, we can scout out a bit of their lands (but again, I wouldn't advise going deep into their territory--maybe a square, two at the most, and then back out, so that we can still be in a good position to steal a Worker when one comes available)


Short term for the missionary: When worker moves to fur on T30-2800 to road, the missionary's no longer need there to spawn bust. So missionary moves to the scout's location to spawn bust and the scout explores easterly to sheep and beyond towards Greek border.
I'm very leery of sending our Scout away. With some bad luck with Worker stealing, our Scout could end up being our only defender. That's not meant to scare us off from Worker stealing--but, it is meant to be a caution that we are probably much safer keeping our Scout at home as a potential City defender or as a lure for an AI Archer if we find ourselves in a tricky situation.

There's not much to see by going exploring with a Scout--some more Forests and then likely a Barb and then likely the death of the Scout.

Have some patience--after a few Alphabet trades, the world will be better settled and our Scout won't encounter too many Barb Units when it heads out to meet the rest of the world, allowing us to efficiently meet most of the rest of the world a bit later (in the Turn 60s or so).

If we're going to move our spawn-busters, we need to make absolute certain that we don't leave gaps for Barbs to spawn, as our approach does not allow for Barbs spawning near to us. The safest approach is not to move our spawn-busters at all and not worry about trying to reposition them.

By not settling to the south-east, and not sending the Scout out just yet, we can delay meeting the Light Blue AI until after getting Mining, Archery, and Bronze Working in trade, making for us to still be able to trade techs if it is Alex (since he quickly goes into WFYABTA) or for us to have a good long-term tech-trading partner in Pericles.



Longer term (before Paris is size 8) missionary spreads Christianity to Paris.
What about the north-east City? It needs Culture before its Work Boat can be used.

Are you suggesting that we will go for Priesthood relatively early (for a Temple in Paris) or that we will convert to Christianity, possibly alienating many AIs out there, particularly those 6 AIs with a Holy City of a conflicting Religion? I'm not ruling out these options and we might pick one of them, but the north-east City will definitely suffer without the use of the Missionary.


Maybe we'll tech Alphabet -> Currency -> hope for Mysticism in trade -> Polytheism -> Priesthood -> Horseback Riding? Maybe we won't and the AIs might not really go after the Religious techs early, either?

Or, instead of Priesthood, go for Monotheism for Organized Religion, so that we can spread Christianity (say, from the north-east City)?

Or, instead of Hinduism, go for Meditation and build a Christian Monastery in the north-east City so as to be able to build Christian Missionaries?


I don't really undrstand the focus on spawn busting western borders when we have 8-9 eastern tiles than won't be cleared until Germany pops borders, probably t34-35.
The difference is the Peaks and the position of the nearby AIs. Barbs aren't going to have an easy time of randomly wandering toward our area due to all of the Peaks to the east of us.

The Green AI plus our spawn-busters are keeping the area to the west, south, and south-west of Paris free of Barbs.

Barbs that spawn to the east may be killed off by Germany and are more likely to beeline a German City than try to funnel around the Peaks to get at Paris.
 
As far as whether we should Open Borders:
1. For England, I'd say yes for certain, as we want to give Churchill as much chance as possible to meet a least 1 other AI
2. For Germany, I'd say yes if we think that Opening Borders can help us to find a Worker
3. For other AIs, I'd say yes if all of the AIs whom we have met do not have that AI as their Worst Enemy (check on the F4 GLANCE screen for AIs being Annoyed or Furious toward the AI that we are considering Opening Borders with)

We can also just pause play when we learn Writing to re-evaluate the situation.
 
If no one objects, I am going to play in about 6 hours from the time this message was posted.
 
Not much to report. Followed the ppp. We have Open Borders with Churchill.

Our warrior watching Berlin heard some interesting tales told by a family named Grimm. A little later the warrior, from his hill top vantage point spotted a bear to the east, and decided it was time to stroll north and west. Also, the warrior reports that he spotted 2 German warriors by Berlin. While in a Biergarten our Warrior meets an Archer emissary of Stalin. :beer:
A newly formed group of warriors begins a search of the mountains and hills south of Paris hoping to find truffles. Instead, they met Warrior emissaries of Joao. Continuing their exploration south they spot the city of Lisbon. Moving further south, they noticed a yellow tinge in the ocean and move back into the hills.

Screen Shot of our empire as of 2760BC:
Spoiler :
France%202760BC_zpsulvtjzit.jpg
Info Screen as of 2760BC:
Spoiler :
France%202760BC%20Info_zpssfbgetjd.jpg
Autolog file:
Spoiler :
Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 17/500 (3320 BC) [09-Jun-2016 10:01:56]
Research begun: Writing (14 Turns)
100% Research: 10 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

Turn 18/500 (3280 BC) [09-Jun-2016 10:03:54]
100% Research: 10 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

After End Turn:
Paris grows to size 2

Turn 19/500 (3240 BC) [09-Jun-2016 10:06:17]
100% Research: 10 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

Turn 20/500 (3200 BC) [09-Jun-2016 10:08:32]
100% Research: 10 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

Turn 21/500 (3160 BC) [09-Jun-2016 10:09:46]
100% Research: 10 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

After End Turn:
Paris grows to size 3
Paris finishes: Warrior

Turn 22/500 (3120 BC) [09-Jun-2016 10:11:08]
Paris begins: Settler (10 turns)
A Camp was built near Paris
100% Research: 14 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

Turn 23/500 (3080 BC) [09-Jun-2016 10:14:05]
100% Research: 14 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

Turn 24/500 (3040 BC) [09-Jun-2016 10:16:52]
100% Research: 14 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Churchill(England) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 25/500 (3000 BC) [09-Jun-2016 10:20:37]
100% Research: 14 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

Turn 26/500 (2960 BC) [09-Jun-2016 10:22:18]
Player contact made: Joao II of Portugal
100% Research: 14 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

Turn 27/500 (2920 BC) [09-Jun-2016 10:24:06]
A Pasture was built near Paris
100% Research: 14 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Writing

Turn 28/500 (2880 BC) [09-Jun-2016 10:34:13]
Research begun: Fishing (4 Turns)
100% Research: 14 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Churchill (England) towards Joao II (Portugal), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Joao II (Portugal) towards Churchill (England), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 29/500 (2840 BC) [09-Jun-2016 10:39:12]
100% Research: 14 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

Turn 30/500 (2800 BC) [09-Jun-2016 10:42:57]
100% Research: 14 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Frederick (Germany) towards Joao II (Portugal), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 31/500 (2760 BC) [09-Jun-2016 10:44:35]
Diplomacy: Churchill (England) offers to trade Open Borders to Napoleon REAL (France) for Open Borders
Diplomacy: Napoleon REAL (France) accepts trade of Open Borders to Churchill (England) for Open Borders
Player contact made: Stalin of Russia


Save as of 2760BC. Game Paused. Warrior by Lisbon can still move.
 
Fantastic job on following the planned micro! :goodjob:

Regarding the real game...
1. We're in a pretty tough situation for being able to steal a Worker. I don't know if we will be able to do it in the short term.

Frederick does not yet have Bronze Working, yet all of the other neighbours do.

Frederick has Farmed his Wheat but not Pastured his Cow.

Ideally, we try to steal his Worker from 2 SE of Berlin, where we'd grab the Worker from the G Riv Cow square when he is either Pasturing or Farming the Cow.

Declaring war from the G Riv at 1 NE of Berlin sends Warrior 1 to 3 W of Berlin
Declaring war from the G Riv Corn (Wheat in the real game) at 1 E of Berlin sends Warrior 1 to 1 SW + 2 W of Berlin
Declaring war from 1 SE of Berlin or 1 SE + 1 E of Berlin would send us exactly where we'd want to be: 2 SE of Berlin

We can Open Borders next turn and do the following:
T32 Open Borders with Frederick (Stalin couldn't ask us to stop trading with Frederick for another 10 turns)
T32 Move 1 SW G Riv (1 NE of Berlin)
T33 Move 1 S G Riv Wheat (1 E of Berlin) to give us options of where to stand on Turn 34
T34 Move 1 S G Riv Cow (1 SE of Berlin)
T35 This turn is the earliest that we could declare war, but we're too late, as Berlin's Cultural Borders will have expanded

On our Turn 35, Berlin's Cultural Borders will have expanded. If Frederick learns Bronze Working in the next couple of turns and he Revolts into Slavery, his Cultural Borders will have expanded on our Turn 36, giving us a 1-turn window in which to try to steal his Worker, so we should try for the opportunity, but not count on being able to get it. If we do get the opportunity, definitely stop play before declaring war, as we should decide as a team about big items such as war declarations, based on up-to-date info.

Of course, his Worker might not be improving the Cow, but we have run out of turns to try getting his Worker from anywhere else to the south of Berlin.

Well, we're just going to have to try to get there and if Frederick doesn't learn Bronze Working or if his Worker isn't on the Cow at the right time, we'll probably want to head north-west through Berlin's Cultural Borders, both to avoid meeting additional AIs and to get to the G For that is 2 NW + 1 N of Berlin, to hope to steal a Worker when Frederick improves his Sheep.


2. Meeting Stalin was quite unfortunate. He is one of the few AIs that you need to get to Pleased in order to get any techs out of him. Had we not met him until later, we could have gifted him a very cheap tech on the first turn of meeting him, gotten him up to Pleased immediately (you get Fair and Forthright Trading divided by the number of turns for which you have known an AI--probably +1 to avoid division by 0 errors--and thus you get the full +4 if you gift a tech when you first meet an AI, but the value goes down to +1 or even less than +1 after several turns), and then been able to immediately trade techs with him. As it is, by the time that we learn Alphabet, we'd probably have to gift him 3 techs just to get him trading with us.

Stalin also has a very low WFYABTA limit with iNoTechTradeThreshold = 5. It's going to be quite hard to get a lot of use out of him having met him this early. I'm sure that all teams will have met him by the time that they get Alphabet, but it would have been nice to have been the only team not to have met him to gain a competitive advantage over other teams.

With him already having with 3 Cities (likely starting with them unless he has better micro than us), it's also going to be a challenge to gift him a City to be able to steal techs with him, so he's likely going to be a runaway AI whom we won't be able to take much advantage of. It's unfortunate, but it's likely the same situation that every team has to face.


3. Thanks for not meeting the Yellow AI or the Light-Blue AI. Meeting additional AIs at this point will be counter-productive, so thanks for avoiding doing so.

We definitely don't want to head south-east of Portugal, as then we'd meet the Yellow AI.

We'll also have to be careful not to send Warrior 1 too far south... a few squares into Berlin's Culture to see if we can snag a Worker from the Cow will be okay, but not much farther south than that, to avoid revealing either Light-Blue Culture or a Light-Blue Unit.


4. We'll want to figure out where our Warrior will teleport when Lisbon's Cultural Borders expand if we don't Open Borders with Portugal, but I'd suggest simply Opening Borders with Portugal. We really, really, really aught not to meet the Yellow AI, so if we were to choose not to Open Borders with Portugal, we would want to make sure that we would get teleported northward instead of getting teleported into meeting the Yellow AI. But, let's just Open Borders with Portugal.

Being already at City Size 4, Lisbon was not likely building a Worker (more likely building a Work Boat or two, seeing as how there are no Archers defending Lisbon), and it's doubtful that a Worker would first improve a P Riv square, but there's always hope for the next few turns before Lisbon's Cultural Borders expand.

We do need Warrior 1 back in Paris by Turn 42 (I think it was Turn 42; maybe it was Turn 41), so we'd have to leave the southern area at about the time that Lisbon's Cultural Borders will be expanding anyway.

If we simply Open Borders with Portugal, we won't get teleported, but we'll have to be extra careful not to meet the Yellow AI. The Yellow AI's Cultural Borders may expand, so we'll have to stay extra far away from them.

Turn 35 is the last turn that we'd be able to steal a Worker from Portugal, so we could do:
Turn 31 Open Borders with Joao
Turn 31 Warrior 2 (can we rename him from Warrior 1, to avoid confusion, please?) Moves 1 SW P Riv
Turn 32 Warrior 2, if he doesn't see a Worker coming to the north-east, moves 1 SW into Lisbon (obviously, if we see a Worker that came to the north-east, we'd want to get outside of Lisbon's Cultural Borders right away to be able to try to steal a Worker on the turn after exiting Lisbon's Cultural Borders)
Turn 33, Warrior 2 moves back 1 NE P Riv
Turn 34, Warrior 2 moves back 1 NE PH Riv For
Turn 35 Now's our one and only remaining chance to steal a Worker; if one exists within range, we stop play to discuss whether we try to steal it. If no Worker is within range, we head back to Paris
EDIT: Let's scrap the idea of moving Warrior 2 into Joao's Cultural Borders as we can have our Missionary do so instead.


5. Thanks for also not moving the Missionary and Scout. If we'd sent the Missionary to where the Scout is located, as of the last couple of turns, we would have left a gap for a Barb Unit to spawn 1 S of our western G Cow, which could have made for a really nasty mess, since we want to settle our City 2 over there. If you settle with a Barb Warrior within your Cultural Borders, it won't get ejected like a Barb Animal will and your City will get attacked on the following turn (the City would certainly get razed in our case, with no City Defender in it).

On Turn 32, we'll want to do:
T32 Worker 1 roads the fur
T32 Settler 2 confirms that the fur was roaded before moving
T32 Settler 2 moves along the Roads to the G For that is 1 N of the western G Cow (1 NE of the Fish)
T32 The Missionary is now free to move and I'd suggest sending him toward Lisbon, to explore the northern part of Lisbon's Culture, but not the south-eastern part of it, to avoid meeting the Yellow AI.

If we steal a Worker from Portugal, our Missionary won't explore in Lisbon's Culture. We'll also have to be careful not to move our Missionary before moving Warrior 2, so that we don't end up deciding to steal a Worker only to find out that our Missionary would die from one of Portugal's wandering Warriors.

So, probably:
T32 Missionary moves 1 SW G Cow > 1 S G
T33 Missionary moves 1 S GH For
T34 Missionary moves 1 SE GH For (1 NE + 2 N of Lisbon's P Riv Horse)
T35 Move 1 SW P Riv For
T36 Move 1 SW P Riv > 1 NW P Riv For
T37 Spend a couple of turns to see if we can reveal enough water squares to have a revealed path along the western coast to Lisbon, so that when we get Sailing, we'll get an immediate Foreign Trade Route with Lisbon, which is clearly on the water (1 S of Lisbon is a water square)
EDIT: Note that our Missionary can already start moving toward Lisbon as of Turn 31, since Worker 1 is spawn-busting the G Stone and other western squares already on Turn 31.

We'll also want to make sure to leave enough turns for our Missionary to get to the north-east part of our empire for spreading in the north-east City that we'll settle after learning Alphabet.


6. One AI has 72 for their GNP, while we have 21 in last place.
An AI has 11 Hammers to our 4.
An AI has 28 Food to our 14.


7. One AI has a Size 6 City, while many other AIs have Size 4 Cities.
 
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