SGOTM3 Rome - Team Tao

[mad-bax]

SGOTM3 Rome - Game Thread.

Hi everyone, and welcome to your game thread.

Here is the start position.


Here are a couple of links you might find useful.

The Original GOTM16 Announcement.
The Draft Constitution

This Months' sponsored variant is Xenophobic NOW
The rules are as follows.
1. Non-Oscillating War variant. You keep a list of opponents and the order in which you meet them.
2. You must declare war on the first Civ you meet before leaving the diplomacy screen for the first time.
3. You must stay at war with that Civ until one of you have been eliminated.
4. You must declare war on the second Civ you met on the same turn that the first Civ was eliminated or 20 turns has elapsed (whichever happens sooner). This is to prevent sandbagging.
5. After each opponent is eliminated or 20 turns elapse you must declare war on the next civ in the list.
6. If you run out of opponents because you haven't met them yet and 20 turns have elapsed, you must declare war on the next opponent you meet before leaving the diplomacy screen for the first time with them

The Xenophobic part of the variant runs as follows.
7. You may never own a foreign worker. You must never buy or sell one, and if you capture them they must be disbanded on the tile on which they were captured.
8. All deals must be at face value. No haggling.
9. You will not establish embassies.
10. You will never retain a town that contains foreign citizens. Such towns must be razed and any workers spawned disbanded.

Also there is a puzzle involving some non-standard Barbarian Units. The puzzle is framed in the same way as it was for the original GOTM16, but the solution is different.

The save will be available from >>HERE<< when the timelock is released. All of your teams save files will eventually be available from this link.

When you finish your turn, you may upload your save to >>THIS<< link

Have fun, and good luck everyone!

 

[tao]

Welcome everybody to sgotm3 Rome. As we will play the Sponsored Variant, this hopefully will be an enjoyable game. I gave some thoughts on how to win and came up with the following:

How to win in easy steps
Frankly: I have no idea. The main problem I see is to balance our military efforts with the necesssary rapid expansion.

How to win an ideal game
This is more easy. IMHO the optimum scenario is as follows:

1. We start exploring and hope to meet the first civ not too close to our capitol.
2. We can trade our alphabet for pottery and bronze working (or wheel/warrior code) before we declare war.
3. We do min research on writing and hope to meet the 2nd (or 3rd?) civ once we learned it and can trade it for iron working.
4. We research literature aiming for the Great Library.
5. A very early Great Leader builds us The Pyramids (wishful thinking).
6. We build the Great Library with a Great Leader.
7. Maybe we can delay our Golden Age until we are monarchy (more wishful thinking).
8. Since we are not pangea, contact with other civs is delayed until we have conquered our continent.
9. The Great Library will give us also lots of Middle Age techs once we contact the off-continent civs,
10. If even half of this happens, we should win. Easily.

I did not yet look at the save since it is well after midnight local time. This has to wait till tomorrow. Maybe you come up with some more good ideas.

 

[Demiurge]

Officially check in. Looking forward to playing with everyone. This will be my first attempt at what is essentially an AW game with a 20 turn cushion. Add in a truly wicked xenophobic twist and this should be interesting indeed.

My thoughts so far and some reactions to tao's list:

1. Great library: It looks like the GL will be a must. At emperor I can usually maintain the tech pace through trading and never try for the GL. But, with the trading restrictions in this game, I think it's critical. A pre-build might be in order instead of taking a chance on getting a leader in time.

2. Contacts: Since we don't have to declare war until 20 turns after we close the diplomacy screen with our first victim, we delay as long as possible. We play the hermit in the early game and do very little exploration. When our first civ is met, let them initiate contact.

3. Techs: We start with alphabet and warrior code. I agree with starting on writing and then seeing where we need to go based on initial trades.

4. Cashflow/units: We're commercial which helps, but our coffers will be plundered by the ai trying to get AA techs since we can't haggle. In essence, mass upgrades will probably be out. Might we want to build early archers instead of warriors until we learn IW? A stack of archers and a couple spears can be a good attack force in the early game. Also it might help delay our GA a little longer.

5. Balancing military/expansion: As I see it, and I could be very wrong, is we go for max expansion before making contacts. We should do this at the expense of military and culture. Hopefully we'll have some time to develop a productive core. Once our first contact is made we take the 20 turns to build troops and position them in strategic defensive positions between us and the first civ. Declare war and pick off troops as they move toward us taking this time to get us up to attack strength at the expense of expansion and culture. Of course all this depends on us not making very early contacts.

 

[Zwingli]

Checking in. As I read it, we have to declare on the first contact immediately (not waiting 20 turns)...

2. You must declare war on the first Civ you meet before leaving the diplomacy screen for the first time.

So it may pay to keep a sustainable expansion rate to start off. As far as the Great Library, it would be extremely helpful to get an early leader for it, but I think that we can survive without if we can build a reasonable base of cities. Even without haggling, tech trading can still be profitable.

 

[mad-bax]

Guys: I have a concern with the 1.29f saves. On my computer and on Alanhs computer the Roman Leader is named Temujin and not Caesar.

The reason I am concerned about this is that in the bic it is correct. I feel I need to investigate this and correct it since it may affect all the leader names, and may conceivably be the cause of game crashes later in the game.

I would ask that you delay starting the game until this evening when I have checked everything out and am satisfied with the result.

I apologise for the inconvenience.

 

[mad-bax]

The 1.29f saves are fixed and uploaded. The last part of the save name is now _02.SAV

My apologies for any inconvenience caused.

 

[Demiurge]

As I read it, we have to declare on the first contact immediately (not waiting 20 turns)...

Your right, looks like I misread that.

We now have a valid sav. I suppose we should wait to hear from the other team members before starting. Has anyone sent them a pm yet?

@tao: I assume you'll be kicking off the first set of turns. Have you had a chance to jot down a playing order?

 

[Furiey]

Another check in.

I too read it that we have to declare as soon as we make contact, however we can delay contact as long as we wish. We can try and delay by not exploring, or by not contacting the civ once we spot them, either way I think it would pay us to try and get some core cities set up quickly, perhaps keeping them tight to the capitol.

Great leaders for the pyramids and great library would be a real boost, however knowing my luck with leaders (only get them when I don't need them), I don't believe we should assume we get one and a prebuild would be a good precaution if we can spare a city for that.

 

[tao]

I sent a pm to the team and except for Zarth everybody has shown up already. Looking at the time zones we are on, I suggest the following sequence:

tao
Furiey
Demiurge
Zarth
Zwingli

We will follow the 24 hours (got it), 72 hours (to play) rule. Unless I get any wishes for changes, I will play tomorrow evening.

I intend to keep a list of contacts made and dates we have to declare war.

Do we -- just for fun -- want to keep a tally: number of cities razed, number of workers disbanded?

Some more concrete thoughts on how to begin:

1. I intend to found Rome on the starting position: on a hill for defense, 4 bonus graslands, wines on hill, and the essential game tile; forest to be cut for extra 10 shields, afterwards irrigation for 3 food.
2. I don't think we can spare a city for a Great Library (or any other) Wonder pre-build.
3. I don't think we can afford to delay 1st contact very long, because we want to get something for our alphabet.
4. Something like archer (explore), warrior (mp), archer (active defense), granary, settler looks like a good build order.

 

[Zarth]

checking in

On the Great Library: a great leader would be very helpfull, but we cant count on getting on. A prebuild might be possible but I think we will have to see how things develop in the game. I've never played such a variant before, so I dont know how many military units we will have to be building.

 

[tao]

4000bc (1) worker W; nothing new, found Rome s warrior; min research on writing
F10 shows our competition: Greece, France, England, Babylon, Russia, Germany, Aztecs, Iroquois, India, Japan, America.

3950bc (2) mine

3750bc (6) Rome builds warrior s next; warrior S

3700bc (7) warrior S sees cattle

3650bc (8) mine done; road; warrior SW

3600bc (9) warrior W

3550bc (10) Rome builds warrior s armamentarium; warrior1 W; warrior2 E sees wheat

3500bc (11) Rome' culture expands; pop 2; worker has road done goes to next bg; warrior 2 returns and fortifies as mp; warrior1 W sees condimentum (spices); science to 10%

3450bc (12) worker mines; warrior N

3400bc (13) warrior N sees cervus (game)

3550bc (14) warrior NW

3300bc (15) Rome b armamentarium s settler; warrior N

3250bc (16) warrior N sees wheat on plains

3150bc (18) mine done s road; warrior continues N

3050bc (20) warrior continues NW; F11 screen shows Paris, London, Moscow, Berlin, Delhi all at pop 2

IBT Greek hoplite appears on mountain: bad: the hardest to kill unit in the ancient age

3000bc (21) Rome b settler s archer; road done; warrior sees terra fertilis (flood plains)
I do not contact the hoplite but leave it to our discussion and the next player whether to call him
I do not move the settler
Greece has 90 score, we have 86
F11 shows Babylon has replaced Delhi; they probably also built settler



contacts:
none yet, but Greece imminent

questions:
move settler aggressively E towards the wheat and Greece (suicidal) or W towards the cervus (safer)?
do we rcp at distance 3 (safer now) or 4 (better in the long run)?
now that we met Greece (sort of), do we continue to explore N or should the warrior continue circle around Rome?

10 turns from now on:
Furiey (next)
Demiurge
Zarth
Zwingli
tao (just played)

 

[Furiey]

Got it.

It's tempting to rush straight in and play on, but these turns could be critical as they could well determine who we're at war with first, so some discussion is called for I think.

Greece, not good for a first meeting, a war against hoplites this early in the game would not be the best choice. Perhaps we should try and meet someone else asap and declare war on them before Greece contacts us - this would mean North with the Warrior perhaps and hope the Greeks don't contact us for a bit.

Rings: a tighter build would give us less land to improve in between cities. With the prospect of no slave labour to cut our worker costs this might be an advantage - get that inner ring up and running quickly. I'll post some rings piccies at distances of 3 and 4. Looking at our best prospects for first sites migh help us decide where we move that settler.

 

[tao]

Greece, not good for a first meeting, a war against hoplites this early in the game would not be the best choice. Perhaps we should try and meet someone else asap and declare war on them before Greece contacts us - this would mean North with the Warrior perhaps and hope the Greeks don't contact us for a bit.

Yes. That sounds good to me. As this is emperor level, Greece started with 4 hoplites, 2 warriors, 1 worker. The good thing is, that they have no offensive unit and we have the armamentarium. Since they have a slightly higher score then we do, I suppose they have a second city already. If we contact some other civ, get pottery, and cut the forest towards a granary, we can outexpand them. If we manage to build some vet warriors and archers, our military is not hopeless and we will grow stronger as the game proceeds. Hopefully.

PS: Unless Greece makes immediate contact, I'm in favor of rcp 4, building the next city on the river S of the NW cervus.

 

[Demiurge]

Wow, that looks like a good starting area. I think our odds of coming out on top just went up a bit.

Perhaps we should try and meet someone else asap and declare war on them before Greece contacts us - this would mean North with the Warrior perhaps and hope the Greeks don't contact us for a bit.

Good idea.

I think RCP4 is our best bet. If we build at RCP3, it will take a border expansion or another ring of cities to gain access to most of the bonus resources.

Building away from the ai sounds good this early. The more distance between us, the better. I second tao's suggestion for placement S of the NW cervus. By sharing Rome's cervus it becomes our most likely settler factory location, given what we can see now. If I counted correctly it will be at +6 food at pop 5!

I also like the idea about keeping track of how many cities razed/workers disbanded. Just a fun footnote.

@tao: Quidquid agis, prudenter agas et respice finem!

Roman proverbs...Where do you come up with this stuff.

 

[Zwingli]

Taking a look at the save, I see we have contact with Greece. If I interpret the rules correctly that means we have "met" Greece and we must now declare war. MB probably intentionally ensured that Greece would be the first contact to increase the challenge of the game

In this case, I would build at least 1 spearman (If we can trade for Bronze) to avoid losing the game immediately to the Greek starting units. Mathematics and the ensuing catapults will be critical to deal with the tough hoplites, and we should prioritise defensibility in city placement. All of the hills, forests, and mountains will give the hoplites a further defensive advantage so we may need to protect key positions with warriors or spearmen in defense to avoid pillaging.

 

[Demiurge]

For the first civ you meet, you must declare war before leaving the diplomacy screen for the first time. You don't have to open diplomacy immediately, and you may wait until you are contacted if you so wish.

This from MB in the announcment thread. So we still have a little time. The clock is ticking though.

 

[Zwingli]

Yes, from that quote it appears you are correct.

In that case I suggest we discontinue minimum research and set science to maximum to prevent our treasury from growing higher. The reason for this is that once our treasury exceeds the value of one of the Greek techs, they will surely offer it to us in a trade and we will have to declare war on them first. If we don't have enough treasury and gpt to buy a tech, they will never have a reason to contact us other than a demand (that would start war anyway). Even if raising science doesn't effect the rate of research, it should only cost us ~100g, which IMO is worth it to fight someone besides Greece.

 

[tao]

Roman proverbs...Where do you come up with this stuff.

I learned 6 years of Latin in school.

In that case I suggest we discontinue minimum research and set science to maximum to prevent our treasury from growing higher.

Greece started with alphabet also and masonry, which is worth more than warrior code. I am more in favor of aggressively exploring N and making another contact. In 20 turns, we learn writing and can trade for contacts as well as techs. We need money to get the most. I would suggest to contact as much civs as possible in order to get trading opportunities and lower tech cost for those we have to research ourselves. If we don't do it, the AIs will contact us and we cannot select the sequence.

 

[tao]

Increasing post count.

mad-bax just made a very important clarification to the contact rule in the maintenance thread:

If an opponent that you have not made contact with yet tries to extort gold, maps or techs from you, then contact is only made if you give in to the demand. If you do not give in to the demand, then we can assume that diplomatic relations have not been established.

Thus no need to increase research, unless we are afraid that Greece declares war on us, which wouldn't worry me so much because of the inverse ww and us being the "good guys".

 

[Furiey]

So looking at our trade options, we’re trying to find someone else to trade with then declare war on before the Greeks contact us. But what if they do contact us?

Option 1: Greece makes demands; we refuse, avoiding making “official” contact and keep trying finding someone else.
Option 2: Greece offers us gold for Warrior Code; we have to declare war
Option 3: Greece offers to sell us Bronze Woking for Gold; we have to declare war
Option 4: Greece wants Warrior Code for Bronze Working; we have to declare war

Option 1 and they declare – fine with me
Options 2,3 and 4 all result in us having to declare war, so although I would be happy to accept option 3, I am disinclined to give them Warrior Code, certainly not for gold, although I am tempted for Bronze Working

This also raises the question of do we want to trade Warrior Code if we contact another Civ first?

Some initial thoughts on city placement:

Ring of 4 with 6 cities, possibly not close enough, the squares edged in blue are ring 4 on a river.
F is on the coast, as is possibly E (can’t tell whether it’s coast or a lake, but there’s water)
B tao’s site?
A Demiurge’s site?

At the moment I think I favour site A

On a chattier note 6 years of Latin in school! They stopped Latin quite a few years before I would have started it at my school, and replaced German with Spanish the year before I would have started it, I therefore just got French, the main second language taught in schools here and dropped Spanish after 2 years. Despite being science orientated myself, I do find it fascinating looking at the commonalities between languages and so very many words have Latin roots.