SGOTM7 - Team Ivan

[mad-bax]

SGOTM7 - Team Ivan

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Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Ottomans
World size - 80 wide by 80 high. (Small)
Difficulty - Deity
Landform - Archepelago
Barbarians - Roaming

The map is handbuilt, and therefore may not have a standard configuration.

Please visit the following links to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game. The SGOTM Reference thread contains all the files and links you need to install the small mod for PTW/C3C and rather larger mod for vanilla. There are test saves too so you can check your installation.

The GOTM Reference Thread.
SGOTM Reference Thread.
Upload Save to Server
Download Save from Server


This Months' sponsored variant is Always War Deity (AWD) the rules for which are as follows.

1. You must declare war on each Civilisation by the end of the turn you make that contact.
2. You must remain at war with each Civilisation until the end of the game, or until that Civilisation is destroyed.
3. You may trade with a Civilisation on the turn you make contact and before declaring war, but you may not establish any embassies.
4. No turn based (gpt) deals are permitted.
5. You must win by Domination.

Note: PTW and Vanilla players are not permitted to leader rush Great Wonders Before the year 1000BC for this game.

 

[conehead234]

Hey guys, checking in. I'll wait for the other team members to come before I discuss stuff.

 

[King Alexander]

Hello fellow team-mates, checking in.

IMHO, we should discuss a lot before we start playing: Build orders, Tech path, ect...

Questions:
1) Are we going for the Great Library or not? Normally, we'd need this in an AW game, right? Thing is that since we're starting at a 'corner' of the map, the GL city won't be so 'secured'. If we'll lose the GL, it'd be bad for us - I hope that a neighbor-civ will get it, so we can capture it.

2) We'll also need a settler/worker factory running for a long time(settlers, workers), probably the capital with all the food it has nearby, and all the other cities will be military-cities, correct?

3) Another issue: what we start building on our new cities? Barracks, walls? Later on a few catapults will also help us a lot.

4) From what I've seen in AW games, all the cities are spaced at distance 3(the Team leaders will have to make a map for city-placement), to be able to reinforce any city that needs assistance by repositioning the units from city to city at the same turn.

5) about the Goverment: Monarchy will be our goverment(no WW)?

6) We have to be careful to not leave coastal cities undefended, because the enemy galleys will unload regularly.

I'll wait for suggestions.

This game will be very-very difficult, IMHO.

 

[I. Larkin]

K-Alex wrote:

"1) Are we going for the Great Library or not? Normally, we'd need this in an AW game, right? Thing is that since we're starting at a 'corner' of the map, the GL city won't be so 'secured'. If we'll lose the GL, it'd be bad for us - I hope that a neighbor-civ will get it, so we can capture it.

2) We'll also need a settler/worker factory running for a long time(settlers, workers), probably the capital with all the food it has nearby, and all the other cities will be military-cities, correct?

3) Another issue: what we start building on our new cities? Barracks, walls? Later on a few catapults will also help us a lot.

4) From what I've seen in AW games, all the cities are spaced at distance 3(the Team leaders will have to make a map for city-placement), to be able to reinforce any city that needs assistance by repositioning the units from city to city at the same turn.

5) about the Goverment: Monarchy will be our goverment(no WW)?"
1) yes, we will. It will be disaster if we miss it.
2) Not sure, that we will have it. But smth like it might be good.
3) Spearmens. Then settlers, Barracs or TGL.
4) Not sure. Cities will be closer, than usually but not so.
5) Not sure again. If we alone at Island Republic might be OK.
Any ideas about roster order?

 

[nerovats]

Reporting for duty.

I was thinking of sttling in place, pump out a 2 warriors and start exploring our island, see if were alone or not. Since playing vanilla we won't get curaghs so we'll need map making as soon as possible, to get in contact with the other civs. On the other hand we need the GL since we won't be able to trade being always at war.

@King Alexander my answers
1) I think it will be crucial to to get the GL. Otherwise we'll get sofar behind in techs we'll be fighting tanks with swordsman.
2) Look like the capital should be the settler factory but when we exlorer we might get an ever better location. Must be close to the capital, since on a small map curruption/waste increase very fast.
3) Build order depend on being alone or not. We'll at least nead a couple of barracks in the firsth 2 or 3 city (not counting the capital being a settler farm). Build walls on the border towns when not alone.
4) I think a thight build should be preffered (CxxC) normally I would keep the firth ring a bit bigger but when the capitol is a settler farm it won't grow anyway.
5) I always choose monarchy, republic never seems to work for me. No we need a huge army so I think monarchy should be our choise.
6) Agreed, we probably need some MP anyway to keep our people happy. Maybe we could put real defenders in coastl city's and on the front and use horses/swords in the core which can attack the landing party once we got our roads in order.

We'll need some discussing on what research path to follow, I don't think we can first take map making and the still get the GL. I vote for full on GL.

This is my first sgotm so I might need some assistance in posting screenshots/saves. I usually play monarch/emperor, but played a couple of deity start the last couple of days for practice and didn't get killed right away so I'm starting to get hope on a succesfull mission.

Question, (never played AW) is it allowed to make peace and then declare again in the same turn in always war? (I don't usually do this but in this case it would be the only way to trade, if this is not allowd we need to make sure we get our research path right, we can't afford to reseach anything we don't absolutely need).

 

[King Alexander]

Welcome aboard, nerovats.

@Ivan and nerovats:
1) From what I've read in AW games, the GL city is preffered to be near a river/lake IF possible, and needs a temple first, so it can expand it's borders and to work the best available tiles and of course, it's citizens are going to stay happy( having as many citizens possible on working tiles instead of having taxmen for unhappiness).
It'll of course need the required 2-3(depending on the goverment)garrison-units to help with unhappiness.

2) We certainly need to develop/settle our land as quickly as possible and also connect our cities ASAP, so our cities can produce new units fast. So, are we'll go for a quick research on Pottery?
Then again, there's plenty of food near the capital, and we won't expand without securing our new cities, so, we might not need Pottery?

3) I wouldn't send our settlers outside unescorted: undefended cities 'attract' the AI, and besides, we can't afford to lose even a single settler from barbs.
We definetly need to start on units/barracks, and when we'll settle cities near the front, start immediately on walls(for the defensive bonus).

4) AW games that I've read, have the cities strictly 3-tile spaced(for reinforce immediately): maybe we could make an exception for the GL city(distance 4) or not?

5) Monarchy has no WW and a huge unit support: I think, this should be our goverment. We won't need any research for a while, if we get the GL, anyway and besides, we won't EVER sign a Peace Treaty, so it's the goverment for us.
IF we get the GL, better to not build libraries asap, to avoid the maintenance cost - we can always build them as we're approaching Education.

6) Yes, we need to very careful with coastal cities, have them well-protected. We also have to have a few offensive units at strategical points to assist with 'unloadings'.

7) About exploration: better to just know the nearby surroudings, of course, but not get to far with exploring, so we have a bit time before we get in war. In any case, if we declare war to a civ, we should try to avoid meeting another civ(stop exploring): a 2-front war will be very difficult at the beginning, and besides, the other civs will find us, sooner or later.

8) We start with Masonry and Bronze Working(that's the Ottoman's techs from C3C):
Now, we'll gamble and hope to trade for Pottery and Warrior Code? We'll need these techs for a granary and for offensive units(we can't hope to attack with spearmen) - what do you think? Don't forget that Archers also have a bombard value at SGOTM.

Among all these, we also need not to forget our goal, which is to learn Literature and build the GL(after the temple in the GL city, we can start on a palace pre-build immediately) - of course, we need CB for a temple!

9) If all go well, we could use 'tricks' for baiting the AI, leaving a city guarded by warriors only or even unprotected, and create a killing zone.

10) I suggest to keep a log with wins-loses, as it's usual done in AW games(like, 10-1, wins-loses): in this type of game, we have to have as few loses as possible, since we'll be in war with everyone.

11) IMHO, we should raze any city for avoiding flips and for getting free workers(no maintainance cost), unless the city has a Wonder we want.

@nerovats: don't worry, I also don't have AW experience. Now to your question: it's forbidden to get out of war, not for a second.
Of course, we won't research at all what's not required.

Feel free to share your thoughts.

 

[conehead234]

Ok, are first goal should be to get the Great Library. If we don't get it, we will fall too far behind in techs to be able to put up a fight. Settle on spot, and build 3 warriors, then settler. Limited Exploration is the way to go. We need time to build up before the AI start to flood us.

 

[nerovats]

@king alexander with 3-tile spaced I think you say the same as my thight build CxxC so a unit can get to the next city in one turn.

I see I need to adjust my normal style of play. Normally we should start exploring but since we'll start a war with everyone we meet it might be a good idee to avoid meeting nations to soon indeed. So map making is no priority in this, full on literature it is then, except mayby when we're alone we could go for pottery first? If we're not alone we should be able to trade for pottery since most of the competition will be expansionsts.
When we use tight build it won't be nessesary to build a temple in the GL city for cultural expansion, we might need it to keep our people happy, I'm not sure howmany people we'll be able to keep happy if we get no luxuries. I'll test that today.

 

[King Alexander]

I think that we'll need a temple in the GL city, and 2 fortified units, if this city is about to grow more than pop6: let's look to see if the site across the river is suitable for the GL city.

Anyway, I agree that we should't explore much: just know enough to place a new city every time.

@Ivan: for the roster; you or conehead could start the game.

 

[Zarth]

Just checking in for now. I'll comment some more on the game tomorrow.

 

[I. Larkin]

Thanks everybody for cheking in and good suggestions. Who will be team leader now? Or we will play in Democracy stile? Anyhow, somebody should define reseach/buildup strategy. My experience show, that if I play as a shadow team leader game goes better like sgtom1 or sgtom5, which we have won. May be K-Alex will be nominated team leader at this game just for experiment?
Better if we meet nobody before 1000 BC, in this case we may execute our plan.
Reseach:
1) IW 40 turn gambit: the only 2 level Tech.
2) Pottery at max.
3) Alphabet, Writing, Litercy at max or so.
It will take about 100 turns. We may miss CB, but will take into account that Capital culture border will cover some tiles of second City after 50 turns.
Settel on spot.
Buildup: 1) warrior, warior, spear, settler, spear, Granary (barracks prebuild), settler, settler...
2 City)Warrior, Granary(?), Palace (TGL prebuild)
3 City) warrior, Warrior, Barracs...
Location of second City depend on river bend.
Order:
1) Me (Ivan)
2)nerovats
3) Kng-Alex
4) Conehead
5)Zarth.

 

[conehead234]

Well, we may not want to go for iron right way. We could always research iron later, but if we miss the Great Library, we are in trouble. I say go straight for the Library, we need to not lose anytime on the race to it because the AI will grab it. Ivan, I approve your build proposals. Just a thought, we will be on the defensive for a while, so try to place cities were they can get the defensive bonus from a river and possibly try to settle on hills. Roads also will be important so we can move our armies around faster, maybe try to squeeze a worker into the builds. We can save up gold from the Great Library for a mass warrior->sword upgrade, remember the tech pace will go fast, so maybe horses->knights will be better. But anyway, we will need strong defensive positions. Grab any choke points as soon as possible.

 

[I. Larkin]

Conehead: "Well, we may not want to go for iron right way"
What is your proposal? We may go 40 turn Alphabet or Pottery at max.
Normaly AI research Literacy later, only if human research it.
Note, that after 100 turns they may have 10-12 size City and build GL in 12-15 turns.
Better to have strong second City with 10 spt to get GL in 10 turns after Literacy will be discoverd.
It take time, you know...

 

[I. Larkin]

Open file. May play now. I'll think about first tech.

 

[King Alexander]

I still believe that if we're able to trade for CB, we should go for it: the GL city will certainly need a temple at this level, when it'll grow more than pop 6. If we started with CB as 1 of our 2 techs, I'd build warrior -- temple -- palace-prebuild.
Note that with only a few cities, the palace pre-build won't last long.

@Ivan and conehead: both of you have good points; in this game, any strategy could prove a real gamble(always depending on which AI/AI's we'll initially meet) that could lead us to success or disaster.

@conehead: you're right saying that in this type of game, the city-placement will be crucial for our survival.

 

[nerovats]

I tend to agree with conehead, it would be devastating to find out we learn literature one turn late. It might be we research IW and don't even have iron. If we get the GL we'll get IW soon enough I think.
I also think we need one more worker. We need to get our roads done to reinforce the border city's when we get attacked, being industrious will help a lot, so 2 workers should do the trick.
I tested the need for a temple, to get to size 6 we need 2 MP a temple or luxury and the slider at 20% lux. To get past size six we really need the temple or be very fortunate with luxuries.
As mentioned before will we really need pottery, the more techs we research before literature the lower our chances get at the GL.

 

[I. Larkin]

I upload file to server. will write turlog soon. Main problems are barbarians. I declare to Indians.
I saw Yellow border, but avoid contact.

 

[I. Larkin]

Nevorats up.

I tend to agree with conehead, it would be devastating to find out we learn literature one turn late. It might be we research IW and don't even have iron. If we get the GL we'll get IW soon enough I think.
I also think we need one more worker. We need to get our roads done to reinforce the border city's when we get attacked, being industrious will help a lot, so 2 workers should do the trick.
I tested the need for a temple, to get to size 6 we need 2 MP a temple or luxury and the slider at 20% lux. To get past size six we really need the temple or be very fortunate with luxuries.
As mentioned before will we really need pottery, the more techs we research before literature the lower our chances get at the GL.

I agree with this for 100%. The only problem that with barbarians it will be difficult to develop things. We must calculate carefully time of TGL. We may get Literature faster, then 80 turs from now, but I am not sure, that we may collect 300 shields before that.
may be we will go 40 turn gambit? Or may be not to late research something else? Defenetly we need spears in City before palace prebuild.
Temple only useful for border expand. I don't know what to build next granaries or what?

 

[King Alexander]

IMHO, we're in deep trouble without the ability to build offensive units: we can't hope to attack spears/swords(or even warriors) every time with our own warriors. I'd go at maximum for WC and then start on Writing -> Literature.

Thing is that we have another civ just nearby in our neighborhood, and we're already expecting the Indian first wave to come soon(and coming regularly afterwards). We definetly need a tech for offensive units, or we can say buy-buy to the game.

btw: at 100% researching Writing atm, is the same as if we researched it at 20%(again in 39 turns); we should lower it and see EVERY TURN if we can research it(or any other tech) faster. Maybe a few more gold - along with our knowing techs - will help us to trade for something(who knows?) when we'll meet the 'Yellow borders' civ(Egypt, Iroquis?).

We need to place our next city(-ies) at distance 3 from now on, so we can work the land quickly(they won't grow past pop6 for enough time, anyway), and more importantly, to be able to defend attack without risking our units.
Also, a spear guarding the GL city, will be a factor for the AI(or the barbs) to avoid it.

Another issue: expect to see some Elite AI units coming towards us, with all the barb-hunting they'll do.

So, to summarize things:
We need another city soon that will start on barracks to help us(as all the other cities from now on will do), and we also need to build barracks in the capital at some point(we won't need a granary, I think, because we have much food around the capital to grow for now; maybe later we'll build one, but then again, I might be wrong on this) I'd start building settlers/workers, past size 6 at the capital, after the second settler.

I'd also escort all our settlers - from now on - with spearmen(even regulars), rather than with warriors: my humble opinion is that the our new cities should first start on Walls(very cheap and effective), then barracks/spears or other offensive units.

P.S.: maybe we should start a temple pre-build(via barracks) on the GL city to expand it's borders so it'll also have available the goats(more food), later on? We can always change the barracks pre-build to temple when, hopefully, we'll trade with the 'yellow borderded' civ.

We also need to place our next cities strategically around the capital and the GL-city, so we haven't to fight over there and trying to avoid pillages from enemy spears. A dot map is in order. Please, make one.

EDIT:IF POSSIBLE, try to 'cover' our units after you attack(with spears, say), so they're safe from an attacker 2-tiles away. Even a single unit-loss will is heavy in AW. Then again, that's a far strategy, given the current situation.

 

[I. Larkin]

4000 BC
Settle on spot, worker to sheep. Warrior 4 turns.
3950-3850BC
zzz
3800 Warrior -> south
3750 Grow. Pottery 16 turns.
3550BC Indians appear.
Trade alphabet+10 gold for BW+Masonary. They have Bombey.
Declare war.
IBT. Indian Warrior ran East.
3500 BC Village desert.
3300 BC spot yellow border. We separated by narrow channel both Indians and Zulu(?)
3200 Barbarians appear from somewhere.
3150 Found Inzuk on Jungle.
3100-3000BC fight wit Barbarians. Got 25 gold
3050 BC Pottery->Writing. It is 40 turns, but will be faster soon.
Not sure, however that we will finish palace prebuild that soon. It is main point to discuss. Since Barbarians come from west no AI there. Looks that we are safe at first approximaton.