SGOTM7 - Team Own

[mad-bax]

SGOTM7 - Team Own

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Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Ottomans
World size - 80 wide by 80 high. (Small)
Difficulty - Deity
Landform - Archepelago
Barbarians - Roaming

The map is handbuilt, and therefore may not have a standard configuration.

Please visit the following links to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game. The SGOTM Reference thread contains all the files and links you need to install the small mod for PTW/C3C and rather larger mod for vanilla. There are test saves too so you can check your installation.

The GOTM Reference Thread.
SGOTM Reference Thread.
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Download Save from Server


This Months' sponsored variant is Always War Deity (AWD) the rules for which are as follows.

1. You must declare war on each Civilisation by the end of the turn you make that contact.
2. You must remain at war with each Civilisation until the end of the game, or until that Civilisation is destroyed.
3. You may trade with a Civilisation on the turn you make contact and before declaring war, but you may not establish any embassies.
4. No turn based (gpt) deals are permitted.
5. You must win by Domination.

Note: PTW and Vanilla players are not permitted to leader rush Great Wonders Before the year 1000BC for this game.

 

[Own]

What happens if you conquer the world without dominating it? This is probably a stupid question.

 

[mad-bax]

We lose.

 

[SpiffyKeen7744]

OK, should we be talking strategy yet? Since the save comes out soon, we could talk about initial moves.

The Ottomans are Scientific & Industrious, which means faster terrain improvements and cheaper libraries for science and culture. Culture should be important for domination. Because this is C3C, we can get the Philosophy free tech, but that will be hard as we do not have Alphabet to start and this is Deity. It looks like we get Bronze Working as Scientific and Masonry as Industrious. In fact, trading for techs will be hard, because it is AlwaysWar. Once we meet every opponent, we much research alone. Archepelago and handmade does not tell us much. We could be alone on an island or with others. I hope we have a decent sized island to our self. The AI is not too good at invading.

Definately settle in place. If the sheep give +2 food +1 production they will be 2/2/0 initially and 3/2/1 with irrigation and road in Despotism. There is a bonus grassland that will start at 2/1/1 and go to 2/2/2 with road and mine. The sea resource will be 2/0/2 without harbor and 3/0/2 with harbor in Despotism. We could get a 4-turn settler factory with a harbor in Despotism.

Just some thoughts for now.

 

[Drugged_Unholy]

I think we should be conservative in our exploring, as trading isn't important and we'd probably be better off not meeting everyone soon. I'd say a couple of warriors to explore the immediate area should be ok, as this will then give us enough information to make decisions about city placement. Hopefully we'll have a choke point as well. Agree with settling in place, and first builds should be those warriors, and then set up the factory. Other cities should build units asap.

 

[mad-bax]

Although I can't be specific about the map - and I will play last in the roster BTW I do have some thoughts about AW in general. I have played several and they mostly play the same way.

Since we cannot trade (other than from initial contact) it is pretty much impossible to keep up in tech. Unless you want to fight Cavalry with horses then I think the Great Library is a necessity.

We can allow it to be captured before Education is known and then capture it back later.

Mathematics is an important tech of course. We need a kill ratio of better than 5 to 1. Artillery (including cats) and intelligent use of terrain is important.

The Great Wall is an important wonder too. Not particularly because we want the free Walls, but because we don't want to fight a civ with walls.

We need to space cities close together so that we can move units between them in one turn. Road networks are important.

Don't be afraid of building fortresses, particularly on hills and the "wrong side" of rivers.

We may or may not be alone on our island. If we are then we can use the farmer gambit for a little while. We will need a couple of spears in each town though by the time the AI get Map making.

I wouldn't build any boats at all until we are ready to invade. Late contacts will give us more trade options and also limit the amount of enemy units we will see. We may even be able to trade for the world map if we get a contact late.

Monarchy or feudalism for government? We need to discuss this.

Tech path? Probably pottery and then to writing. Then Mathematics all at the max we can afford.

More later.

 

[Own]

I won't be able to play till Wednesday, I'm grounded.

I think we should build 3 spearmen (not warriors) before a settler. A granary I think isn't necessary. The GL must be captured. We're gonna have to take the risk that someone on our continent will build it. Trying to build it ourselves is 400 shields, or 13 swordsmen.

 

[SpiffyKeen7744]

Alright! If what I hear is correct, then we should not try for the Philosophy free tech. That makes a lot of sense if we find another civ on our island. Also, I am not too familiar with Deity, so getting Philosophy first might be hard anyway. If we meet a civ on our island or nearby enough to be a threat, then we must go for math quickly. Also, we need Literature for Libraries and the Great Library.

@mad-bax: Are you suggesting that we will not be able to self-research and keep up with other civs in AWD because we will be using our gold for military? Is that why the Great Library is so important?

I totally agree about the kill ratio. Having a high kill ratio is important at any high level, even a normal game. Also, this is C3C so we have access to another bombard unit between Catapults and Cannons. Plus, C3C city bombardments damage units more often than in PTW. I also agree that fortresses are great for the kill ratio. They are better than cities, forests, or hills.

As for the 4-turn Settler factory, I am not sure we need to set it up perfectly. However, I think a Granary should be built. We need to be able to grow, just not faster than we can defend ourselves. What I would like to know is, should be build any Warriors at all?

I will look at Feudalism for my next post. I have never used that form of government.

 

[SteppinRazor]

I think, we should go for 3 warriors, not spearmen before pumping out settlers. We would be expanding earlier and exploring faster(we could find more goody huts that way).
If there are 2 or 3 opponents on our island, we would lose trading opportunities much more valuable later on. But if there is only one, or if we are alone, we have to wait until map making anyway until we meet new civs.
Also, If the island is only of medium size it may be a good way not to get cornered in by the AI early on.

Research-wise it would be good to go for the GL. We cannot be sure that capturing the GL is within reach. And we NEED it. Even at lower levels one has rarely enough ressources for military, culture AND research. My guess is, at this level you have to concentrate on one, maybe two aspects at a time. So we could go for military, secure our island early on using GL for advancing our research, and then switch to a defensive strategy focused on culture/research. Then we switch to Republic, quickly research Siphai and construct the necessary infrastructure to become an economic giant.

To achive the needed kill ratio for successful military expansion we need Mathematics, so that has to be researched as well.

I am not sure if we should go for granaries or not. If we go for feudalism, it may be nice if we are able to build faster. But if have to research pottery for ourselves, it may be too costly.

If I interpret AW correctly, we are the only ones always at war, and the AIs can trade as they please. Is that true? If so, when we give away anything it will be traded with all others at the next opportunity. As we will rarely meet 2 or more civs in the same turn this is of big concern.

Feudalism vs. Monarchy:
Feudalism would have some advantages. 5 supported units per town would allow us to attack early on. Forced labor is not that great, but it keeps the cities below 6 and therefor keeps the high unit support. The slightly higher war weariness would not be that problematic. But most citizens are unhappy w/o happiness slider anyways.
Actually I have never played feudalism before, so take this with a grain of salt.

 

[SteppinRazor]

Of course, much of my previous post assumes there is max 1 opponent on our island. If there are more, some assumptions may not hold.

 

[mad-bax]

We won't be able to keep up in tech because

A) The AI will be able to trade amongst themselves and we won't.
B) We will be producing a MUCH higher proportion of Military than usual.

This means that we cannot set the research slider as high as normal because of unit maintenance and we will not be able to get gold through trades.

 

[SpiffyKeen7744]

The save is up. I just finished my finals and will be flying home tomorrow. I have all of my stuff packed up, so I will not be able to play until probably Wednesday, May 18th. If someone wants to play first, go for it. After Wednesday I will be ready to go.

By the way, how many turns per person are we using for this game? (5,10,20) Also, we should agree on initial research and possible build sequence before the first turn takes place.

I think we should build one or two Warriors first, because we can get them cheaper. We need to know about the lands immediately around us, but we must explore with caution.

@mad-bax: Ok, the key point is that we will have large unit support. So Monarchy or Feudalism is necessary. Does Feudalism have war weariness? If so, we cannot use that form of government. It has nice unit support if all of our cities are size 6 or smaller. With cities close together, it won't be hard to keep the cities small. Otherwise, Monarchy is best, because it gets better as our cities get larger. Also, how often can we expect to have extra gold to rush production?

 

[Own]

I say monarchy. I still think the GL must be captured. Either we'll get lucky and the GL holder is on our continent or we'll need to do a beach head attack. Building it on Demigod requires a good prebuild, which won't come early as we'll need 3 units before settlers (2 mp/defense and 1 escort for settler). The city with the prebuild will need to be building units. Well, that's just me.

About philosophy free tech, it is already hard enough if you start with alphabet, but without starting with it, it's near impossible especially if you need ca$h for unit support. The main use for it is getting republic, but it's AW so republic sucks, and will require code of laws as well.

We should not send units exploring. We don't need to meet opponents.

Once we've got GL, send curraghs imediatly to find second civ. Don't kill civ on continent until education.

Basically my game plan:
1. Build 3 defensive units (spearmen, preferably).
2. Build settler, use one to escort. For safety, build city on other side of front.
3. Continue building more defensive units, then once all free AI units have been killed, build barracks in capital, then another settler.
4. In second city, if free from danger of attack, build worker. Otherwise build 2 defensive units then temple.
5. In 3rd city, if safe build temple. If not, 2 defensive then barracks.
6. All this time we should be minimally researching towards iron working.
7. If civ on continent builds GL, find the city, then get a huge stack with catapults (if researched, if not then more swordsmen) and swordsmen, follow most defensive terrain to city the GL is in. If not, will have to send curraghs to find opponent who built it then attack with same sorta stack.
8. Once captured, send curraghs to find second civ.
9. Defeat civ on continent (it's not as easy as it looks judging by how many words I used in this step).
10. DO NOT ATTACK any other continent until gunpowder. Find the weakest, technologically backwardist AI without iron and with maximum attack of 2. Land tons of musketmen with 2 warriors and a settler on a hill, build city, then rush walls by disbanding warrior, then barracks by disbanding other.
11. With 9 defense, their 2's will die quickly, and MGL's will come like bees to honey. First army should be musket, then sipahi, then musket, sipahi, etc. (sipahi's will unload to continent when available, until then build up cash and knights).
12. Cannons and sipahi's will hide under musket army, and conquer, conquer, conquer. Only 2 to an army so caravels can transport them.

I know I left out details on building cities, but I can plan too precisely as I don't know the terrain.

About turn limits, I think 5-10 per person. The less turns, the easier micromanaging is, therefor we shall do better. When must the game be finished?

 

[mad-bax]

If we agree that we will settle on the spot, why not move the worker to the sheep we can irrigate and settle a city. We can then discuss where to go from there.

 

[SteppinRazor]

@mad-bax: yeah, we should get the game going

@own:
Monarchy is fine. I never liked Feudalism much, it just seemed interesting for that match.
The prebuild argument is a good one and basically I agree, but what if the GL is in the middle of some godforsaken island halfway around the globe? We need it quite urgently and all.
Philosophy is just too costly and that we are there first is highly unlikely.

That point I do not understand: Why do you think we should wait with attacking until we got Education?

Your game plan sounds interesting. As this is a level you are (presumably) more familiar with than I am, we should try it. After all I am here to learn; doing it your way may be better in that case.

 

[Own]

I am "familiar" with this level, as its only level I play, but not very good at it. The worst case scenario with the GL is if it is in a city in the middle of another island. If only on the coast it is still very easy to grab.

If we can capture the GL on our continent, then we shouldn't attack until education and gundpowder. Otherwise we capture it, and if it's too much trouble to defend, we'll raze it after education.

The reason to wait to gunpowder is because our infrastructure-poor most likely small island won't pump out enough units to kill a demigod AI unless we have a huge advantage [like 9-2 (musketmen fortified on hill with walls vs. archers, archers chance of winning are 1 out of 50)]. Until gunpowder we should build spearmen (to muskets) and knights (to Sipahi's). After GL research to military tradition at 10% (unless we have enough $ to make a big difference and still pour in ca$h for upgrades).

One more issue, however I don't know enough about it to state my opinion-
City placement

Should it be best spot, RCP, OCP, ICS?

 

[SteppinRazor]

I see.

Regarding city placement: I do not think that we can decide on a strategy yet. We do not know whether our island is small or big, which terrain there is or if there is an AI nearby.
And IIRC ICS is forbidden in ranking games. Does that rule apply to SGOTMs as well?

 

[Own]

Okay, who will go first? We don't have all milleneum.

Not me, I keep forgetting the lux slider, not what we need in AW. Any volunteers? I suggest 10 turns per person. 5 would make us do better, but we might not ever finish the game. Or will we? I asked before but no one answered, when must the finished game be submitted?

 

[SteppinRazor]

I'll take the first turn then.

 

[SteppinRazor]

I've downloaded the save and started playing.