SGOTM8 - Wacken

[WackenOpenAir]

I'd prefer 30/70 or 25/75, with 70-75% being cav's, otherwise, I completely agree that we only need to build tanks if it seems we need to. since the goal is conquest, I don't see the need to build a lot of defenders, just enough to hold key landing areas.

once we get to mass production, we should make sure all AI's have steam. that way, they can rail the terrain for us to speed thier conquest.

Them building RR is so slow, i think if we have a civ that is backward enough that it isn't expected to have nationalism, we should keep it out of IA.

Otherwise i agree, some more attackers is probably better, but we also need some defenders the landing on other islands.

 

[dmanakho]

And remember emperor level AIs don't have stacks of Doom as for example diety AIs have... We will also need paratroopers no matter what... probably dozen or couple of dozen those guys are weak.

@Wacken: Bombers are good but not as good. They DO DIE!!!! and then also need to heal if damaged by enemy fighters. Sure you still can send damaged bombers with less chances to lose it as if compared to tank though. But that is because fighters intercept bombers on some random based schema.
But again bombers might do just fine since we are only dealing with emperor AI. Usually i don't even build bombers on Diety level since they are not effective against diety AI anti-air defences. We will just need lots of bombers and keep building those to replace casualties.
All we need to do is the major RoP rape and capture major Rome (Japan, english... etc..) cities on first turn of war and have enough paratroopers in the captured cities to withstand first wave of counter-attacks. Next turn we will have tanks and cavalry running off air-fields and nothing will stop that.
EDIT: On the second thought - why would we need to capture cities - just burn them all.

Oh... i hope i am playing the 1st war turn set This game all about those several turns where the fun begins and ends.

 

[grahamiam]

@Wacken: Bombers are good but not as good. They DO DIE!!!! and then also need to heal if damaged by enemy fighters.

@D-man: why do we expect the AI to have flight? only fighters and flak and damage bombers. If we keep the AI down, we should be able to have the advantage there such that they research flight very late in the fight.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

And remember emperor level AIs don't have stacks of Doom as for example diety AIs have... We will also need paratroopers no matter what... probably dozen or couple of dozen those guys are weak.

@Wacken: Bombers are good but not as good. They DO DIE!!!! and then also need to heal if damaged by enemy fighters. Sure you still can send damaged bombers with less chances to lose it as if compared to tank though. But that is because fighters intercept bombers on some random based schema.
But again bombers might do just fine since we are only dealing with emperor AI. Usually i don't even build bombers on Diety level since they are not effective against diety AI anti-air defences. We will just need lots of bombers and keep building those to replace casualties.
All we need to do is the major RoP rape and capture major Rome (Japan, english... etc..) cities on first turn of war and have enough paratroopers in the captured cities to withstand first wave of counter-attacks. Next turn we will have tanks and cavalry running off air-fields and nothing will stop that.
EDIT: On the second thought - why would we need to capture cities - just burn them all.

Oh... i hope i am playing the 1st war turn set This game all about those several turns where the fun begins and ends.

Indeed, the AI wont have flight. Even if they do, they have it for such a short time that they will build 2 fighters total or so before they die.

Paratroopers are nice, however, we have to build something before the war, so we will have cavalry and infantry. Therefore choppers although not as good as paratroopers must probably do the job.


Maybe its a good idea to shorten the turnset to 4 turns when the war starts ?
That way everyone will probably just get a peace of it. (5 turns might sound more logic, but the war might fail to last 30 turns)

I expect Flight in ~38 turns and advanced flight in 53 turns.

 

[dmanakho]

Paratroopers are nice, however, we have to build something before the war, so we will have cavalry and infantry. Therefore choppers although not as good as paratroopers must probably do the job.

How will choppers help alone??? choppers can't capture cities and choppers can't transport anything but paratroopers, workers and settlers... Am i wrong here??? but that is what i thought was the case. We can of course move a worker to build airfield, declare war (I think building airfield on AIs territory is the same as the building the city and equal of declaration of war) and dump everything on that airfield, click next turn and hope AIs won't do much damage. But if we want to raze few cities on the 1st turn of war we will need air-born units to be moved in advance.

You are right about the Flight... I am not sure why i was so sure AIs will have flight .

 

[WackenOpenAir]

How will choppers help alone??? choppers can't capture cities and choppers can't transport anything but paratroopers, workers and settlers... Am i wrong here??? but that is what i thought was the case. We can of course move a worker to build airfield, declare war (I think building airfield on AIs territory is the same as the building the city and equal of declaration of war) and dump everything on that airfield, click next turn and hope AIs won't do much damage. But if we want to raze few cities on the 1st turn of war we will need air-born units to be moved in advance.

You are right about the Flight... I am not sure why i was so sure AIs will have flight .

Oh, i might be wrong here as i have never used all this stuff, but i thought choppers are kinda like boats. I thought they are able to transport all food units at least. Cavalry not maybe ?
And i thought paratroopers don't need a helicopter at all.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Checking the maintenance thread, it is said we can transport foot units. That i guess includes infantry.

Offensive cities might not be needed IMO.

-Make ROP with everyone.
-Drop 4 Workers + 5 Infantry next to a city. Wait one turn.
-Bomb city empty, take it with infantry. Build 4 airports. Airlift 4 cavalry.
-Bomb and capture cities, airlift more Cav's when needed.

We must first find some strategical points on the map from where our choppers can reach multiple islands and points from where our bombers can reach many cities without the need to rebase. These points should then be our first targets.

 

[Wotan]

-Bomb city empty, take it with infantry. Build 4 airports. Airlift 4 cavalry.

? Is airports dealt with differently in C3C? In PTW an airport can recieve any number of units in a turn but can only send one. So as long as we have airports in a lot of cities on our mainland one recieving airport should be enough per island.

Turn report to follow in another post. I worked all evening yesterday so took the morning off to play my turns.

 

[Wotan]

Turn log

0 – 650AD
Changing ICS builds from Settlers to Workers and Wealth.

1 – 660AD
Lots of Workers built.

2 – 670AD
Industrialization researched, Electricity started

Traded Industrialization to Greece for 71 gpt and 654 gold and to Rome for 3 gpt and 40 gold. Research to 100%, Elictricity in 5 turns.

3 – 680AD
Nada

IBT: Tokyo finish building Leo’s.

4 – 690AD
SF builds Factory, Hoover Dam prebuild.

5 – 700AD
Nothing major

6 – 710AD
St.Dman builds Marketplace, Library started.
Shantung builds Cavalry, Settler started. Viking Warrior threatens it.

Several AI’s have Music Theory. Still waiting for Japan to connect more Ivory so we can trade…

IBT: Vikings DoW, Attack Shantung with Warrior, our Cavalry promotes to Veteran.

7 – 720AD
Electricity researched, SM started.
Washington builds Factory, ToE prebuild.
Philly builds Factory, University started.
Tatung builds Cavalry, Cavalry started.

8 – 730AD
Nada

9 – 740AD
Orlando founded, Wealth.

Trade Electricity for Economics, Music Theory, WM and 30 gpt from Rome. With 20+ turns to go before we need RP there is no rush to have Rome research it…

10 – 750AD
Atlanta builds Factory, Smith’s started.

Finally Japan has connected another Ivory, we trade Medicine, Dyes and Wine for Ivory, Silks, WM and 8 gold. Trade Electricity for 18 gpt and 55 gold from Greece. Rome has nationalism now.

After action report:
Scientific Method in 1 turn. A lot of Citizens changed from scientists to taxmen so as not to waste them on beakers. Sort the F1 screen in order of size and change them back next turn. I changed them from top and down until they were just enough to finish SM.

Pre-builds in Washington and SF. Atlanta started building Smiths this turn but that is of course up for discussion. Washington outperforms SF, maybe we should build ToE in SF and Hoover in Washington? ToE should be ready at about the same time in both cities while Washington will finish Hoover a couple of turns earlier than SF. If we research The corporation in 4 turns and then Refinery in 6 or 7 we would be able to time it exactly to the turn when ToE is finished and then pick AT and Electronics and switch to Hoover in the second city.

Vikings did not even have Engineering when they DoW us, so most likely they are still safe re. Berserkers. Maybe we should start putting Musketmen in coastal cities just in case? The Viking Galley east of Seattle is probably loaded so keep tabs on where it goes.

I have rushed a few Cavalry on the “island” to take out the few Warriors they sent. A Worker need to build a road since our road is cut by Greek culture. Three Cavalry in Shantung to attack Anyang if it grows to size 2. If any Vikings land next to Tatung just make a ROP with Greece to deal with them.

We have all luxuries now.

No map needed since changes are minimal.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

? Is airports dealt with differently in C3C? In PTW an airport can recieve any number of units in a turn but can only send one. So as long as we have airports in a lot of cities on our mainland one recieving airport should be enough per island.

Turn report to follow in another post. I worked all evening yesterday so took the morning off to play my turns.

Oh no, you're probably right I never used airports, choppers, paratroopers or anything. Only bombers and tanks once

 

[Wotan]

That is what makes this SGOTM fun. We get to use IA techs. I cannot remember when I last researched into it... Maybe once or twice to Rails but never beyond that.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Dunno if we need 6-7 turns to get Refinery.
It is much better to delay ToE than to delay our tech. I think we should see how fast we can research, than delay ToE to the point where we just finished a tech.
No game right now, will calculate tonight.

 

[Wotan]

Refinery is 4000 beakers, we make about 700 beakers at 100% (maybe just below 700). Corp is 2500 so no problem to get that in 4 turns. ToE should be at 10 or maybe 11 turns at both SF and Washington, it is a bit difficult to count shields when there are 60+ on each row. So Corp + Refinery should be an almost perfect option for us. If we build the ToE in Washington or SF depends on how fast we want the Hoover Dam. Washington is outproducing SF by 12 shields so it would be able to finish the Dam two or maybe even three turns before SF would finish it. They will probably finish the ToE at the same time.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Refinery is 4000 beakers, we make about 700 beakers at 100% (maybe just below 700). Corp is 2500 so no problem to get that in 4 turns. ToE should be at 10 or maybe 11 turns at both SF and Washington, it is a bit difficult to count shields when there are 60+ on each row. So Corp + Refinery should be an almost perfect option for us. If we build the ToE in Washington or SF depends on how fast we want the Hoover Dam. Washington is outproducing SF by 12 shields so it would be able to finish the Dam two or maybe even three turns before SF would finish it. They will probably finish the ToE at the same time.

shields are easily counted by trying to swich to a worker.
"Are you sure you want to swich to a worker, that will waste XXX shields" Then you choose not to swich.

 

[Wotan]

And then there is my method, trying to count shields on the screen...

This is one of those truely precious moments when you feel like an utter fool... Stupid, stupid me, of course one could do it your way too, Wacken. I might even try it occationally...

 

[dmanakho]

I have it...

but i won't be able to play until tomorrow night...

hope it is not a problem since we are far ahead of most of the teams anyway
and yet it gives us another opportunity to count shields and beakers.

However, I don't think we need Smith's... Lets use Atlanta for cavalry or muskets (later to be upgraded) produce at a moment and start build up of our armies.
I'll change the build unless you guys will tell me to keep building smith's

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I favor to build units in Atlanta now.
Defenders sounds good to me as defence against the Vikings.

However, i think we should strongly consider disconnecting salpeter to build Pikes. They are much less shields. When we are ready researching, we will make like 600 or more gpt to upgrade everything we want.

We might after a number of pikes also want to disconnect Iron to build horses rather than knights/cavalry and upgrade those later.

Smiths only pays us 28 gpt (14 harbor + 14 market) and by the time it is ready, we probably wont need it anymore.

 

[Wotan]

Agree on building units in Atlanta.

 

[dmanakho]

Will disconnect salt and start chumping pikes in atlanta.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I just opened the save file:

Atlanta can build pikes in 1. I think 10 pikes is good for a start.
After AF, we have gold to upgrade 2 pikes/horses per turn.

I see i made a mistake previously in assuming the ToE costs 800.
SF builds ToE in 12
Wa builds ToE in 11
SF builds Dam in 18
Wa builds Dam in 15

Look at Minneapolis for example. Cities size 5 that can support 3 scientists, should be made to do so. a 6th citizen wont help.
I think with the scientists in place, a lib in second core and a Uni in Philly, we get at least 750 beaker per turn within 5 or 6 turns.

Refining will certainly be done in 6 turns. I think 5 will be possible if we put some effort to it. After that, Golden age will do everything in 4.
This is our last chance to really win a turn on research, i think we should go for this.
I say these numbers must be possible.

1: Sci meth
5: Corporation
10: Refining
14: Steel
15: Golden Age
18: Combustion
22: Flight
26: Mass Prod
30: Motorized
34: Advanced
35: END GA

We would then need to delay our ToE in SF 2 turns to turn 14. This is a good thing. We can use some productive tiles by neighbouring cities who need them very badly.
We make positive GPT at 100% science. Therefore, i suggest using our gold to rushbuild For Boston, shortrush Lib in a bit in StDman, Houston and Tsingtao. This will also be needed to get those libs and Uni for getting to that 5 turn Refining.
5 turn Refining will also include the very maximum scientists we can support. Don't be afraid to abandon some growth in ICS land by selecting scientists. The game is not gonna be long anymore, and we will soon have a golden age. We need the benefit from that land NOW>