Sheaim need love

[Bad Player]

Fear is so flavoursome for nightmares.

 

[Grey Fox]

If you had attacked before he got Summoning, you could probably have defeated him by sheer weight of numbers (adepts suck at combat). Or if you could have survived his attack, you would have outpaced him economically and would easily have defeated him later.

The thing is, he was on the other side of the world, pass the raging barbs.

And I dont think rushing for macemen would have helped me much, he would just have pillaged my iron or copper, and there, no more Macemen. Then continue to attack with wave after wave of nightmares on a city. He dont care if they die. So what if I get a promotion? Most of the time I wont have time to promote before he attacks next turn anyways, and there are only a limit of promotions that help against his summons.

Im not saying its impossible to survive such an onslaught, and sure, if I could launch a preemptive strike it wouldnt have been such a problem. And sure, if I had Macemen it would have been less of a problem. But the thing is, It seems MUCH easier to go the summoners path (especially for a summoner), and MUCH harder to survive it, then any other specialization.

For example, a single hero (backed up by the appropriate troops) could stop an invasion by Melee units. And when a melee unit dies, its dead. Its not respawned the next turn.

 

[Sureshot]

macemen require iron
death magick requires a death node

this tactic requires Arcane/Summoner Traits to be effective


to do a real test, do Aggressive/Raiders Traited leader with macemen versus Arcane/Summoner Traited leader with conjurers.

though what might help is if Magic Resistant gave +40/50% versus summons (or does it already?)
and is there a +% vs. undead promotion?

it should be tested in multiplayer more i think, the games i've seen it in it was effective, but i recall the summoner getting destroyed by vampires while he was off killing eerr heh, and i remember having ridiculous amounts of monks and confessors and 2 heroes when the conjurers were ready, and being able to produce about 5 more 3 move monks a turn.

 

[Grey Fox]

I guess I just suck at anything but getting religions quickly in MP.

And Magic Resistant helped against Nightmares, I was adaptive so I changed to that the 3rd time I got to choose, but that was too late. And I couldnt choose vs Undead promotion, if that still exists.

 

[Sureshot]

summoning requires the same amount of research as fanaticism, and fanaticism gives 6 strength crusaders with demon slaying 1 and 2 moves if you're Spiritual, plus (they should, but don't) get access to demon slaying 2 (nightmares are Demons)

now, take into account those nightmares can't use your roads, so if your culture is decent then theyre moving 4 squares, while you can move 4 squares in your own lands because 2 moves plus roads, if you get engineering its 6.

he just specialised, which made him weaker earlier and prolly had a poorer economy, he took advantage of his specialization with good timing. if you had founded the order and gotten fanaticism you'd be laughing when he brings his nightmares.


with demon slaying 1 and 2, and magic resistance you'd have 6 strength +140% = over 14 strength against nightmares

 

[BCalchet]

it should be tested in multiplayer more i think, the games i've seen it in it was effective, but i recall the summoner getting destroyed by vampires while he was off killing eerr heh,

That was because I pulled all units out of my cities, leaving them undefended - I was about to leave the game, if you remember. If I'd wanted to keep playing, escaping three conjurers home and smashing the calabim wouldn't have been a problem.

 

[Sureshot]

splitting things up can be a downfall, and death magick wont make you many friends lol, and escape will only protect your capital

 

[BCalchet]

splitting things up can be a downfall, and death magick wont make you many friends lol, and escape will only protect your capital

Escape will let a stack of nightmares be at any tile within 6 from the capital the turn after using it, 14 tiles after two more turns - not counting roads!
How is that only protecting the capital?

As far as splitting up goes, it's not like I can't bring the rest of the conjurers home instantly as well, should things start looking down on either front. (And if something can kill them and their nightmare guards before they can escape, the game is likely lost anyway.)

Death magic diplomacy will only serve to make good civilizations - who hated me in the first place - slightly more hostile.

 

[Sureshot]

its a very risky playstyle, requiring a lot of management, and now that assassins have marksmen promotion itll be even riskier.

im not saying you can't effectively manage offense and defense, but its not exactly a passive job, and theres much room for error.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Removing the ability to pillage from nightmares makes sense. They're still undead, though, and there are unique promotions to counter that. You seem to be missing the point, though, that just about every Civ that gets a military boost at some point is going to be very hard to stop upon getting that boost. Luichirp that have used Barnaxus intelligently get units with higher base strength and many combat promotions, so they'll always win in a straight fight. Elohim, once they get monks, are just about impossible to defeat on their territory, allowing them to declare war without having to worry about retalliation. A force of elven swordsmen backed by Gilden Silveric produced by the elves' hammer advantage is probably the most effective early-game rush there is.

More importantly there are counters to all these strategies. Nightmares are vulnerable to anti-undead promotions, anti-magic promotions, and rings of warding. Luichirp units are crippled by collateral damage as they don't heal on their own. The Elohim can be outgunned by foes that apply Scourge promotions to their units, just as the elves can be beat by anti-elven promotions. If you're caught by surprise and a tier lower in military tech, anyone can beat you.

 

[Endovior]

If you're being swarmed by Nightmares, you should strongly consider Way of the Wise... it's what makes Demon Slaying and Undead Slaying available, and as such is a real boon when fighting most any evil civilization. Even if you don't go for the Order (say, if you've founded an earlier religion) it's still worthwhile if you've got a lot of evil to fight. Yes, even if you're evil yourself.

That being said, my favorite counter against summon stacks is fire mages. Don't ask questions, just cast Fireball. Cast it a lot. Cast it from ships in port if need be (gotta love those Arcane Barges!), but be sure to cast it. Their swarms are nothing but free XP for you if they've been toasted properly.

 

[Quetz]

I find Sand Lions preferable to nightmares myself... fear is neat and all but I dont usually use Summoning trait, just gaurd em with normal units, and lions' 5 str beats 4 str any day.

Or chaos ravagers if there are no handy plains