Sheaim - no training yard?
- Thread starter TravellingHat
- Start date
its a small trick i learned if your having difficulty on the initial stages.
education has a cost of 250 beakers.
philosophy has a cost of 400 beakers.
way of the wicked is 300 beakers.
infernal pact is 1350 beakers.
knowledge of the ether is 400 beakers.
mysticism is 200 beakers.
ok, hope my math is decent here ....
follow the paths ...
i can get mysticism to finish at a point where education woudl require 50 more beakers. i build both the eldar council and the pagan temple in that order (typically i can finish the elder council before you could finish education). this nets me 5 extra beakers right off the bat per turn (2 from council , 3 from great person). then i set another as a priest when i finish the temple. this grants me 6+ (depending on civ tacticallly). so in a quick game i am 12 turns from a great person. i am researching knowledge of the ether. if i pop a sage i save it for religion , but if i pop a priest i burn it for philosophy. then move on the path as described.
this is a way to race for the veil , the other alternative is to hold on KOTE until you get exploration and/or education , then you can pop a sage for KOTE if you desire.
also soon after you get the veil you start seeing the boost in army and research from the temples. so its nice to get it fast.
education has a cost of 250 beakers.
philosophy has a cost of 400 beakers.
way of the wicked is 300 beakers.
infernal pact is 1350 beakers.
knowledge of the ether is 400 beakers.
mysticism is 200 beakers.
ok, hope my math is decent here ....
follow the paths ...
i can get mysticism to finish at a point where education woudl require 50 more beakers. i build both the eldar council and the pagan temple in that order (typically i can finish the elder council before you could finish education). this nets me 5 extra beakers right off the bat per turn (2 from council , 3 from great person). then i set another as a priest when i finish the temple. this grants me 6+ (depending on civ tacticallly). so in a quick game i am 12 turns from a great person. i am researching knowledge of the ether. if i pop a sage i save it for religion , but if i pop a priest i burn it for philosophy. then move on the path as described.
this is a way to race for the veil , the other alternative is to hold on KOTE until you get exploration and/or education , then you can pop a sage for KOTE if you desire.
also soon after you get the veil you start seeing the boost in army and research from the temples. so its nice to get it fast.
I am clearly not putting in anywhere near as much thought into this as you are. This is what happens from not playing Civ I through III, and sucking at Alpha Centauri.
I can see hitting mysticism before education for an early start (although that's debatable if you expand the time scale a touch longer because the benefits of cottages increase over time), but I can't see neglecting education immediately afterwards.
Also, while your detail is excellent, you noted in your initial push that you'll want to get death mana so your adepts can raise skellies to repel barbarian invasions. I don't know of any ways to get death mana without grabbing necromancy, and therefore you're tacking another 800 beaker expense onto your tree. I'd take that as another argument to grab an additional low cost research accelerating tech - if your math is right (and mine is also right), even assuming a bulb on philosophy you'll have 3050 beakers to accumulate before you'll have a religion (and another 800 + reagents before you'll have a ritualist, which really underlines the need for Necromancy - you don't want to wait that long for a decent defender). You only have to assume the most modest return on expense (looks like about 1/14) before Education proves itself to be beneficial, not to mention that the gold thereby generated allows for more rapid expansion.
Edit: Nevertheless, looks to be an interesting alternative approach to what I had been doing. Sorry for falling into normal critical webposting self and not indicating my interest as well.
I can see hitting mysticism before education for an early start (although that's debatable if you expand the time scale a touch longer because the benefits of cottages increase over time), but I can't see neglecting education immediately afterwards.
Also, while your detail is excellent, you noted in your initial push that you'll want to get death mana so your adepts can raise skellies to repel barbarian invasions. I don't know of any ways to get death mana without grabbing necromancy, and therefore you're tacking another 800 beaker expense onto your tree. I'd take that as another argument to grab an additional low cost research accelerating tech - if your math is right (and mine is also right), even assuming a bulb on philosophy you'll have 3050 beakers to accumulate before you'll have a religion (and another 800 + reagents before you'll have a ritualist, which really underlines the need for Necromancy - you don't want to wait that long for a decent defender). You only have to assume the most modest return on expense (looks like about 1/14) before Education proves itself to be beneficial, not to mention that the gold thereby generated allows for more rapid expansion.
Edit: Nevertheless, looks to be an interesting alternative approach to what I had been doing. Sorry for falling into normal critical webposting self and not indicating my interest as well.
onedreamer
Dragon
Uhm, why would you prefer summoning Nightmares over Chaos Marauders ? I think the latter is much better. And you don't need to build nodes.
BCalchet
Human, all too human.
I find nightmares more useful for everything except attacking cities - they scatter enemy stacks when attacking and defend beautifully thanks to their fear ability.
Also, I'd get death mana in any case, just for the skeletons.
kenken244
Grammar Nazi
that was remved in one of the versions.
now i think it needs to be nerfed a bit because it wont betry you now
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
I believe (as I have already stated) that it was removed at the same time that planar gates were added, for obvious reasons. I think Kael said that their betrayal may make it back in, but probably with a different mechanic, one less harmful to the sheaim.
katika
Warlord
They also had their strength reduced and can use melee weapons. This keeps them balanced for Sheaim (they can get stronger but only with metal/forge) and summons (no betrayal, lower strength unless you're attacking near a friendly city with a forge). I think it's a good solution for now.
And for contagion... best offensive pickup for the witches.
One added edge that marauders have in the pure damage department is their ability to benefit from enchanted weapon. It seems like most of my imps have a free promotion when I summon them from ritualists en route to a combat, and I like to keep a weapon enchanting imp in the summoner stack for just this reason. (Ritualist nightmares are not particularly good due to the lack of spell extension promotions.)
But once the necromancy tower is out, nightmares are particularly nice.
onedreamer
Dragon
Chaos Marauders also benefit from weapon upgrades. 7/8 strength with 2 movements versus 4 strength (even if with neat abilities... but they require promotions and summons aren't exactly my fav. for promotions) is so much handier to me.
BCalchet
Human, all too human.
Chaos Marauders are much stronger when fighting in and around your cities *and* have metal *and* have researched bronze working/smelting, sure, but there's no way you're getting weapon promotions deep in enemy lands, and those are a whole bunch of beakers that could have been spent elsewhere. It's not just a question of "7/8 strength versus 4 strength".
They both have 2 movements, so I can't for the life of me see what you're trying to prove with that.
Nightmares have fear when summoned. That does not require promotions. (Or, if you're talking about promotions needed to summon them, chaos marauders also need those. I fail to see any point there, as well. Just trying to make your post look longer?)
The trade-off for me is: Should I spend two promotions for a six-strength summon, or one promotion for a four-strength summon with fear?
I'd take the Marauders any day if I only had a few conjurers, had forges and needed to defend myself, sure. Otherwise, Nightmares.
That's why I brought up summoned imps ability to use their free promotions to whip up enchant weapon - it's a weapons-based boost which is totally portable, and it gives your ritualists something to do while moving into ring range. A chaos marauder's enchanted strength is nearly double a nightmare's strength (until the tower of necromancy gets built, anyway), which is not a trivial edge by any means.
onedreamer
Dragon
@BCalchet
Sorry, I forgot that Nightmares had 2 movements and fear from the start. No need to be mad at me ok ? However Chaos Marauders still have higher strength (5, not 6), and fear is more defensive than offensive, "deep in enemy lands" is not so deep when you have 3 turns and at least 2 movements, so in the end I think that it's Nightmares who are better suited to fight in and out of your cities. But they are nonetheless a better unit than I thought, so please disregard my first comment. I just summon them very rarely since normally I build the Wyrmhold for 2 chaos mana and then promote my adepts only with combat promotions and spell extensions.
Sorry, I forgot that Nightmares had 2 movements and fear from the start. No need to be mad at me ok ? However Chaos Marauders still have higher strength (5, not 6), and fear is more defensive than offensive, "deep in enemy lands" is not so deep when you have 3 turns and at least 2 movements, so in the end I think that it's Nightmares who are better suited to fight in and out of your cities. But they are nonetheless a better unit than I thought, so please disregard my first comment. I just summon them very rarely since normally I build the Wyrmhold for 2 chaos mana and then promote my adepts only with combat promotions and spell extensions.
TravellingHat
Warlord
Just to report back...
I won my game with a tower victory (long, hard, and very frustarting when you get the "you can no longer continue building..." message and have to scour your empire for the node you just lost! But if it was easy, it wouldn't be a real victory, would it?).
Hyborem, who remained my faithful attack dog throughout the game, was in second place on points. I'd wiped out half the civs who'd stood in my way, and Hyborem obliterated one on his own for me. Besides myself and the demons, only the Calabim (amusingly cursing us for destroying the world, since they were fnow pious members of the Fellowship of Leaves) and the shattered, island-bound remnants of the Svartalfar (evicted from my home continent as I needed their mana nodes) remained.
Observations:
1) The Eater of Dreams is a one man army. I'd capture the highest population enemy city within reach, sacrifice as many of the population as possible and overrun surrounding cities with pit beasts. As these nasty creatures remain summoned all the while they win combats, they could rack up frightening city raider promotions. When distance or bad luck led to their loss, regroup and start again. Should I capture cities I didn't want, I'd just gift them to Hyborem after I'd wasted the locals (to be fair, sacrificed in his name!).
2) With a high Armageddon Counter, the number of demons rolling out of my planar gates was obscene. In the end I'd just leave them all where they appeared, as I just didn't need any more field troops.
3) A high Armageddon Counter is not entirely to the Sheaim's advantage, as I found when the Avatar of Wrath decided to waste my main outpost on the other continent, taking out both Abashi and my demon champion (Marmero?).
4) The biggest problem to counter in city management was poor health, due to a combination of Sacrifice the Weak, death mana and foundries (essential for the big builds). Even with all the health buildings it was a struggle.
5) My butchering ways led to numerous of my units going off to serve hell. Most of these I didn't care about (in presumably appropriate Sheaim fashion), but I was a bit miffed when Rosier disappeared. That vile-hearted monster was a killing machine.
All in all, I had a tricky start but luckily had good commerce and production from wineries and well placed hills. The power gain into the mid-game was slow but steady, fuelled greatly by a reasonably steady supply of Mobius witches, chaos maraduers, ritualists and conjurors, before achieving a critical mass that could withstand all but the most powerful of enemies (e.g. the aforementioned Avatar of Wrath).
Particularly fond memories were of obliterating Basium and his winged fools within about three turns of their spawning (unfortunately for them, right next to my principal overseas base), going on to annihilate the Amurites for daring to summon Basium against me, and after a painfully long wait (and with the game all but won), unleashing Meshabber of Dis to wreak fiery vengeance on those damnable Horsemen of the Apocalypse. I do the end-of-the-world stuff round here, alright horse boys!?
About an eighth of my home continent was hell terrain, the taint having crossed the ocean from the other of the two land masses, which was entirely an ash-shrouded wasteland.
Great fun, and all the more so foir the advice received here.
I won my game with a tower victory (long, hard, and very frustarting when you get the "you can no longer continue building..." message and have to scour your empire for the node you just lost! But if it was easy, it wouldn't be a real victory, would it?).
Hyborem, who remained my faithful attack dog throughout the game, was in second place on points. I'd wiped out half the civs who'd stood in my way, and Hyborem obliterated one on his own for me. Besides myself and the demons, only the Calabim (amusingly cursing us for destroying the world, since they were fnow pious members of the Fellowship of Leaves) and the shattered, island-bound remnants of the Svartalfar (evicted from my home continent as I needed their mana nodes) remained.
Observations:
1) The Eater of Dreams is a one man army. I'd capture the highest population enemy city within reach, sacrifice as many of the population as possible and overrun surrounding cities with pit beasts. As these nasty creatures remain summoned all the while they win combats, they could rack up frightening city raider promotions. When distance or bad luck led to their loss, regroup and start again. Should I capture cities I didn't want, I'd just gift them to Hyborem after I'd wasted the locals (to be fair, sacrificed in his name!).
2) With a high Armageddon Counter, the number of demons rolling out of my planar gates was obscene. In the end I'd just leave them all where they appeared, as I just didn't need any more field troops.
3) A high Armageddon Counter is not entirely to the Sheaim's advantage, as I found when the Avatar of Wrath decided to waste my main outpost on the other continent, taking out both Abashi and my demon champion (Marmero?).
4) The biggest problem to counter in city management was poor health, due to a combination of Sacrifice the Weak, death mana and foundries (essential for the big builds). Even with all the health buildings it was a struggle.
5) My butchering ways led to numerous of my units going off to serve hell. Most of these I didn't care about (in presumably appropriate Sheaim fashion), but I was a bit miffed when Rosier disappeared. That vile-hearted monster was a killing machine.
All in all, I had a tricky start but luckily had good commerce and production from wineries and well placed hills. The power gain into the mid-game was slow but steady, fuelled greatly by a reasonably steady supply of Mobius witches, chaos maraduers, ritualists and conjurors, before achieving a critical mass that could withstand all but the most powerful of enemies (e.g. the aforementioned Avatar of Wrath).
Particularly fond memories were of obliterating Basium and his winged fools within about three turns of their spawning (unfortunately for them, right next to my principal overseas base), going on to annihilate the Amurites for daring to summon Basium against me, and after a painfully long wait (and with the game all but won), unleashing Meshabber of Dis to wreak fiery vengeance on those damnable Horsemen of the Apocalypse. I do the end-of-the-world stuff round here, alright horse boys!?
About an eighth of my home continent was hell terrain, the taint having crossed the ocean from the other of the two land masses, which was entirely an ash-shrouded wasteland.
Great fun, and all the more so foir the advice received here.
cvlowe
King
Bah- I found Hyborem to be too weak in my Sheaim game so I killed him off myself 
Then I devoted a batch of witches with sanctify to keeping the blight out of my core cities- had to protect my resources for the health and happiness benefits. Happy healthy peasants are more productive, leading to faster conquering of the world and don't mind so much if I sacrifice their neighbors and friends
Plus I had so many witches, I didn't know what else to do with them...
Then I devoted a batch of witches with sanctify to keeping the blight out of my core cities- had to protect my resources for the health and happiness benefits. Happy healthy peasants are more productive, leading to faster conquering of the world and don't mind so much if I sacrifice their neighbors and friends
Plus I had so many witches, I didn't know what else to do with them...
TravellingHat
Warlord
On the care of demon lords: Hyborem may well have floundered in my game too, but I fed him a diet of high-protein techs, and gave him regular exercise slaughtering those enemies too distant or insignificant to warrant my personal attention. Result: one happy demon with bright eyes and a glossy coat!
My heartlands were far from the spread of hell (at least until end-game), so my critical resources were safe. I did start an overseas colony though, and that had some problems. Sacrifice the Weak goes a long way to alleviating the innevitible famine, but health remains a problem. However, if I'd been on the same continent as Hyborem, I could see it causing problems, particularly losing the health benefits of cereals and livestock.
Edit: speeling
My heartlands were far from the spread of hell (at least until end-game), so my critical resources were safe. I did start an overseas colony though, and that had some problems. Sacrifice the Weak goes a long way to alleviating the innevitible famine, but health remains a problem. However, if I'd been on the same continent as Hyborem, I could see it causing problems, particularly losing the health benefits of cereals and livestock.
Edit: speeling
cvlowe
King
Bah if he needs my help (beyond summoning) then he's too weak to destroy the world and can not be the true lord of the underworld! Therefore he deserves to die.
That and he allied with Perpentach before me after I summoned him so I refused to sign open borders no matter how much he begged. When I got tired of his sniveling, I sent a small contingent of troops and removed him from the face of the planet.
He came back later though- through hellfire nodes. Well some of his troops did. That was a bit of a surprise, but quickly dealt with.
That and he allied with Perpentach before me after I summoned him so I refused to sign open borders no matter how much he begged. When I got tired of his sniveling, I sent a small contingent of troops and removed him from the face of the planet.
He came back later though- through hellfire nodes. Well some of his troops did. That was a bit of a surprise, but quickly dealt with.
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