TravellingHat
Warlord
I now have an image of that wrath-fuelled devil whining "pwease will you be my fwiend". Nice 
Sheaim - no training yard?
- Thread starter TravellingHat
- Start date
onedreamer
Dragon
Well, you don't really need health if you run with Sacrifice the Weak + Agriculture. And I don't think that hell terrain replaces any luxury.
cvlowe
King
Exactly, that's why I crushed him! Some lord of darkness. It only took some bored chaos marauders who were stacked up with nothing better to do!
cvlowe
King
It destroys food resources. And even if you go back and sanctify later, you end up with a random resource, not necessarily the same one.
onedreamer
Dragon
I know, but as I said you don't need food and health resources with Sacrifice the Weak, and even less if you're Hyborem. Not all food resources are destroyed btw.
dynablaster
Chieftain
I love the Sheiams very much. Well to be honest i am a fanboy of dark evil casters anyways. I love to play them no matter what game.
I made more or less the same experience like you TravellingHat conquering the world and turning it into a huge field of ashes and fire on the way.
Still, i think the Sheiam suffer in early game. I played my first MP ever this week (was big fun btw) and there is just no way not to get BW for Pyre Zombies to either defend against a rush or be able to fend of the raging barbs if those are activated.
So my early game is very defensive. Yes Wither will help a lot to make your enemy think twice about attacking you but of course only till he gets life mana and a few life casters. If he does the trouble begins.
Destroy undead rips your Zombies and Diseased Corpses away. And if you don't get the first Planar gate like real early, and it spawns a moebius you really got nothing to weaken your opponent on distance.
Of course ritualist are mandatory for their Ring of GG ( come on you do want to tell your enemy to "DIE IN A ring of FIRE" tooo, don't you ?
) and the ability to summon not only nightmares ( being countered by destr. undead easy) but also sand lions.
I have got a feeling, that my future games will involve sand lions in a greater style since they are the only early T2 summons i can get not affected by Destroy Undead. Yes summoners are out ot the question at this point of time.
I dont know, i guess i have still a lot to learn about my favourit bringers of fiery death in MP.
I would love to hear some oppinions of other Sheiam MP players.
GP:
2 sages 1 popped for KotE and 1 for the stigmata ?
OR 1 used for the Academy and one for the Stigmata ?
OR 1 Sage and 1 Engineer for Stigmata and a rushed Ragnarok Prophecy forcing you to discover KotE the normal way though ?
IS it really worth to go for the Eaters or would it not be better to focus on getting the T3 divine casters since they start 1 Tier ahead anyways and got a nice reportoire of summon spells AND great AOE ? 3 Pillar of Fire on 1 City anyone ?
As i said all of this regarding Multiplayer what do you guys think?
By fire be purged
dynablaster
edit: typos
I made more or less the same experience like you TravellingHat conquering the world and turning it into a huge field of ashes and fire on the way.
Still, i think the Sheiam suffer in early game. I played my first MP ever this week (was big fun btw) and there is just no way not to get BW for Pyre Zombies to either defend against a rush or be able to fend of the raging barbs if those are activated.
So my early game is very defensive. Yes Wither will help a lot to make your enemy think twice about attacking you but of course only till he gets life mana and a few life casters. If he does the trouble begins.
Destroy undead rips your Zombies and Diseased Corpses away. And if you don't get the first Planar gate like real early, and it spawns a moebius you really got nothing to weaken your opponent on distance.
Of course ritualist are mandatory for their Ring of GG ( come on you do want to tell your enemy to "DIE IN A ring of FIRE" tooo, don't you ?
) and the ability to summon not only nightmares ( being countered by destr. undead easy) but also sand lions. I have got a feeling, that my future games will involve sand lions in a greater style since they are the only early T2 summons i can get not affected by Destroy Undead. Yes summoners are out ot the question at this point of time.
I dont know, i guess i have still a lot to learn about my favourit bringers of fiery death in MP.
I would love to hear some oppinions of other Sheiam MP players.
GP:
2 sages 1 popped for KotE and 1 for the stigmata ?
OR 1 used for the Academy and one for the Stigmata ?
OR 1 Sage and 1 Engineer for Stigmata and a rushed Ragnarok Prophecy forcing you to discover KotE the normal way though ?
IS it really worth to go for the Eaters or would it not be better to focus on getting the T3 divine casters since they start 1 Tier ahead anyways and got a nice reportoire of summon spells AND great AOE ? 3 Pillar of Fire on 1 City anyone ?
As i said all of this regarding Multiplayer what do you guys think?
By fire be purged
dynablaster
edit: typos
Nikis-Knight
Deity
I agree with Sheaim being a slow starter, but that is by design.
Ring of Fire will be somewhat weakened in the next build.
Toss up, I'd say. high priests/Inquisitors are more versitile, but your Eaters of Dreams are really strong if you get surprise attacked or take over an enemy city. Instant army.
Ring of Fire will be somewhat weakened in the next build.
katika
Warlord
Inquisitors and High Priests are probably the better choice for their strength and (currently) limitless damage, but Eaters of Dreams are more versatile.
Also, Sand Lions begin with the Stigmata promotion (+.5*AC% combat strength) if summoned on burning sands.
Also, Sand Lions begin with the Stigmata promotion (+.5*AC% combat strength) if summoned on burning sands.
onedreamer
Dragon
You forget Chaos Marauders
Depends... they are both good units because we shouldn't forget that 3 turns for summons is really a long time. Problem with Eaters is that it takes time to get to them, so in case you loose them they are hard to replace (but you can build many adepts and upgrade to many summoners). Ritualists only need one promotion to cast ring of flames.
About GP, I don't think rushing the Prophecy is so high on priority list. Stigmata doesn't need much rushing, too, because the promotion bonus is higher later. I'd rush Great Priests for religion techs and to build the Wyrmhold, which will let you build adepts with a free Chaos promotion, and have therefor stronger summoners, not to mention spreading the Cult of the Dragon which can be a good nuisance for your neighbours, and will be a nice add for you once the converting effect is back in (not sure why it's been suspended).
dynablaster
Chieftain
First of all i need to say, i might be biased, since my MP have been all 1v1 or 2v2 thus more like a duel setting. There is never the thread of a third party to backstab me and all of my effort is aimed towards defeating my enemy.
So my mindset is like:
1. make sure I can survive / defeat myself
2. get to the point I can go agressive asap
3. kill my enemy as fast and efficient as possible.
This is why I will try to get to the one technology that puts me into a win situation and then go for the throat.
But I guess in a FFA Game you need to get powerful as fast as possible too, just to make sure people wont dare to atack you, fearing for weakening themself to much and becoming a prime target for the others.
With my mindset as explained above I have to decide to go either for Eaters or for High Priests / Inquisitors ( forces to decide between higher combat strenght or a free promotion = +1 lvl 3 magic sphere on creation. I think I would almost always decide for Priests instead of Inquisitors )
I assume I just got the Veil. This means I got the Techs:
Agri, Edu, Mysti, KotE, Phil, WotW, Corruption of Spirit.
Next step WILL be Priesthood. It costs as much as Necromancy. Necromancy offers the ability to build a death node and summon skells.
Priesthood offers Nightmares, Sand Lions and Ring of Fire.
Even if Ring gets nerfed, even if you can not use it to burn through enemy cities you can definately use it to weaken attacking forces enough to make sure they wont dare to atack your City.
With a bit of micro ( i guess roads and/or mobility promotion from Os-Gabela helps a lot. So does if the main body of invading army contains of Move1 units) it should even be possible to kite an invading army from your culture borders to your City burning them several times.
So who would ever take Necro instead of Priesthood ?
Now ofc I forgot I need Reagents. This will force me to take Mobility and Calendars adding about 30% to the research cost of Priesthood compared to Necro.
While i write this stuff it is like I find the answers I am looking for myself. *laughs*
If there are no Reagents close I am forced to go for summoners.
I must use the power my T2 summons offer to me then, to get acces to reagents, or I won't get Eaters anyways and will most likely lose.
If there are any, I will go for Mobility Calenders and Priesthood and either build a city right on op of the Reagents or use a Plantation.
(@ Onedreamer I did not forget the Chaos Maraudeurs. I was asuming a point of time where they were still unavailable. Yet on the other Hand I forgot there might be no reagents close and i can not build Ritualist w/o them. )
I assume I got my Reagents and i got my Ritualists. I also assume I got Summoning right after this. In fact I wonder if I can skip it, but this is pure theorycraft. I need a few games to find out. ARRGH, someone 1on1 me please, I am in the hamachi channel! *looks at hamachi* *oh hi hegemon. sure I want to play let me just finish this. 10 mins ok ?
So even if i take summoning then lets take a look at the research cost.
The fixed numbers will vary with difficulty but the percentages will be more or less the same I guess.
Reli. Law 2392 + Theology 4784 = 7176 = 3 divine T3 casters + summoners
Reli. Law 2392 + Theology 4784 + Div Right 4784 = 11.960 = 6 divine T3 casters + summoners
Soul dept 4784 + Ethereal Call 9568 = 14.352 = 3 T3 Summoners with multicast if they are in a city.
I can get my 3 divine casters for half the cost of the eaters and even if I take the other 3 divine casters it is still cheaper then eaters! I can summon and nuke the **** out of stacks. I will definately skip Eaters and go for Theology.
After all there is no time to play around. If my enemy is as good as i am or even better ( and i think he is because i am newbie after all) he will beeline to his killer tech. I have to be faster or i will be killed.
@ katika Usually there is no Hell terrain when I get Priesthood.
@ onedreamer
I want the stigmata for the Entropy mana.
I found te only techs I get with GP pop and are in my beeline are philosophy and KotE. After this they will offer me only crap like Divination and
Alteration. And other stuff useless for me.
Only exception I found so far is Cult of the Dragon wich can be gotten by GP pop, but i guess the annoying effect for the others can be only used in big ffa games where you are not at war all the time anyways? Would te cult ever spread to someone at war with you when there is no road connecting your cities ?
Thanks to all for this discussion. Please feel free to show me the flaws in my logic.
By fire be purged
dynablaster
Edit: typos
So my mindset is like:
1. make sure I can survive / defeat myself
2. get to the point I can go agressive asap
3. kill my enemy as fast and efficient as possible.
This is why I will try to get to the one technology that puts me into a win situation and then go for the throat.
But I guess in a FFA Game you need to get powerful as fast as possible too, just to make sure people wont dare to atack you, fearing for weakening themself to much and becoming a prime target for the others.
With my mindset as explained above I have to decide to go either for Eaters or for High Priests / Inquisitors ( forces to decide between higher combat strenght or a free promotion = +1 lvl 3 magic sphere on creation. I think I would almost always decide for Priests instead of Inquisitors )
I assume I just got the Veil. This means I got the Techs:
Agri, Edu, Mysti, KotE, Phil, WotW, Corruption of Spirit.
Next step WILL be Priesthood. It costs as much as Necromancy. Necromancy offers the ability to build a death node and summon skells.
Priesthood offers Nightmares, Sand Lions and Ring of Fire.
Even if Ring gets nerfed, even if you can not use it to burn through enemy cities you can definately use it to weaken attacking forces enough to make sure they wont dare to atack your City.
With a bit of micro ( i guess roads and/or mobility promotion from Os-Gabela helps a lot. So does if the main body of invading army contains of Move1 units) it should even be possible to kite an invading army from your culture borders to your City burning them several times.
So who would ever take Necro instead of Priesthood ?
Now ofc I forgot I need Reagents. This will force me to take Mobility and Calendars adding about 30% to the research cost of Priesthood compared to Necro.
While i write this stuff it is like I find the answers I am looking for myself. *laughs*
If there are no Reagents close I am forced to go for summoners.
I must use the power my T2 summons offer to me then, to get acces to reagents, or I won't get Eaters anyways and will most likely lose.
If there are any, I will go for Mobility Calenders and Priesthood and either build a city right on op of the Reagents or use a Plantation.
(@ Onedreamer I did not forget the Chaos Maraudeurs. I was asuming a point of time where they were still unavailable. Yet on the other Hand I forgot there might be no reagents close and i can not build Ritualist w/o them. )
I assume I got my Reagents and i got my Ritualists. I also assume I got Summoning right after this. In fact I wonder if I can skip it, but this is pure theorycraft. I need a few games to find out. ARRGH, someone 1on1 me please, I am in the hamachi channel! *looks at hamachi* *oh hi hegemon. sure I want to play let me just finish this. 10 mins ok ?
So even if i take summoning then lets take a look at the research cost.
The fixed numbers will vary with difficulty but the percentages will be more or less the same I guess.
Reli. Law 2392 + Theology 4784 = 7176 = 3 divine T3 casters + summoners
Reli. Law 2392 + Theology 4784 + Div Right 4784 = 11.960 = 6 divine T3 casters + summoners
Soul dept 4784 + Ethereal Call 9568 = 14.352 = 3 T3 Summoners with multicast if they are in a city.
I can get my 3 divine casters for half the cost of the eaters and even if I take the other 3 divine casters it is still cheaper then eaters! I can summon and nuke the **** out of stacks. I will definately skip Eaters and go for Theology.
After all there is no time to play around. If my enemy is as good as i am or even better ( and i think he is because i am newbie after all) he will beeline to his killer tech. I have to be faster or i will be killed.
@ katika Usually there is no Hell terrain when I get Priesthood.
@ onedreamer
I want the stigmata for the Entropy mana.
I found te only techs I get with GP pop and are in my beeline are philosophy and KotE. After this they will offer me only crap like Divination and
Alteration. And other stuff useless for me.
Only exception I found so far is Cult of the Dragon wich can be gotten by GP pop, but i guess the annoying effect for the others can be only used in big ffa games where you are not at war all the time anyways? Would te cult ever spread to someone at war with you when there is no road connecting your cities ?
Thanks to all for this discussion. Please feel free to show me the flaws in my logic.
By fire be purged
dynablaster
Edit: typos
Two comments. I don't play MP, but I've definitely been Malakim and Hippus rushed.
1. Planar Gate / Moebius is crucial, and Necromancy unlocks one of the better options for your witches with Contagion (which, as in the below case, benefits from Spell Extension). So you might want to consider that Moebius effectively unlocks Sorcery as well (obviously, not for moving beyond Sorcery) and factor in those "free" points in any rush strat, and consider the impact of Necromancy there.
2. Ritualists and their big brothers don't get spell extension I or II. This makes a huge difference in the usefulness of their summons. Ritualists are amazing, and with Imps/Tower Nightmares they are pretty well insulated from most non-magical attacks (Imps pull Assassin hits, Nightmares scare away much of the rest) in a way that Summoners rarely are. But Summoners can have their summons rampage MUCH farther into enemy territory, and given how crucial summons are to the early Sheaim game it shouldn't be missed - I certainly wouldn't bankroll or survive my early battles without the ability pillage deeply and repeated into enemy territory, and each point of movement is not only an additional space of movement but an additional pillage. (Nightmares in particular are insane pillagers due to their Fear ability.)
1. Planar Gate / Moebius is crucial, and Necromancy unlocks one of the better options for your witches with Contagion (which, as in the below case, benefits from Spell Extension). So you might want to consider that Moebius effectively unlocks Sorcery as well (obviously, not for moving beyond Sorcery) and factor in those "free" points in any rush strat, and consider the impact of Necromancy there.
2. Ritualists and their big brothers don't get spell extension I or II. This makes a huge difference in the usefulness of their summons. Ritualists are amazing, and with Imps/Tower Nightmares they are pretty well insulated from most non-magical attacks (Imps pull Assassin hits, Nightmares scare away much of the rest) in a way that Summoners rarely are. But Summoners can have their summons rampage MUCH farther into enemy territory, and given how crucial summons are to the early Sheaim game it shouldn't be missed - I certainly wouldn't bankroll or survive my early battles without the ability pillage deeply and repeated into enemy territory, and each point of movement is not only an additional space of movement but an additional pillage. (Nightmares in particular are insane pillagers due to their Fear ability.)
Two short comments. I don't play MP, but I've definitely been Malakim and Hippus rushed.
1. Planar Gate / Moebius is crucial, and Necromancy unlocks one of the better options for your witches with Contagion (which, as in the below case, benefits from Spell Extension). So you might want to consider that Moebius effectively unlocks Sorcery as well (obviously, not for moving beyond Sorcery) and factor in those "free" points in any rush strat, and consider the impact of Necromancy there.
2. Ritualists and their big brothers don't get spell extension I or II. This makes a huge difference in the usefulness of their summons. Ritualists are amazing, and with Imps/Tower Nightmares they are pretty well insulated from most non-magical attacks (Imps pull Assassin hits, Nightmares scare away much of the rest) in a way that Summoners rarely are. But Summoners can have their summons rampage MUCH farther into enemy territory, and given how crucial summons are to the early Sheaim game it shouldn't be missed (I certainly wouldn't bankroll or survive my early battles without the ability pillage deeply and repeated into enemy territory).
I'm pretty sure Nightmares are currently demons. At least, they are in my game, I may not be up to date on builds.
1. Planar Gate / Moebius is crucial, and Necromancy unlocks one of the better options for your witches with Contagion (which, as in the below case, benefits from Spell Extension). So you might want to consider that Moebius effectively unlocks Sorcery as well (obviously, not for moving beyond Sorcery) and factor in those "free" points in any rush strat, and consider the impact of Necromancy there.
2. Ritualists and their big brothers don't get spell extension I or II. This makes a huge difference in the usefulness of their summons. Ritualists are amazing, and with Imps/Tower Nightmares they are pretty well insulated from most non-magical attacks (Imps pull Assassin hits, Nightmares scare away much of the rest) in a way that Summoners rarely are. But Summoners can have their summons rampage MUCH farther into enemy territory, and given how crucial summons are to the early Sheaim game it shouldn't be missed (I certainly wouldn't bankroll or survive my early battles without the ability pillage deeply and repeated into enemy territory).
I'm pretty sure Nightmares are currently demons. At least, they are in my game, I may not be up to date on builds.
dynablaster
Chieftain
Thanks for the comment xAlephx
You got some nice points there and gave me something to think about.
By fire be purged
dynablaster
You got some nice points there and gave me something to think about.
By fire be purged
dynablaster
onedreamer
Dragon
It can... and building Wyrmohold would help it. The effect of CotD doesn't make much difference if there are more players, of course since it's currently crippled, one must say that it's not so high priority as it could. Also, playing a duel needs different tactics. I never played one, but for example I can guess in a duel the Prophecy becomes more important, because while in a game with many human players it's not so important who builds the Prophecy (as long as he raises the counter ^^), in a duel it must be you to do it. Great Priests can research religious techs such as Philosophy, Priesthood, etc. Also, they are IMO the best great specialist, with their +2 hammer and +5 gold. In a duel, since it's 1v1, much of the strategy also depends on who is your opponent.
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