should I be putting citizens to work my buildings??

[Knowname]

I notice that on default the computer would rather work a 1 food 1 gold coast/ lake tile than work in a factory (industrial center). this seems like a bad thing to me but... is there a reason? how much is one citizen working in a district worth vs working on a tile? I can't find any information on this, tile output is easy to figure out but building output takes some... assumptions... if going by what I know? I mean, this is how I understand it:

when talking about tile production, it ONLY produces when you have a citizen working it right? But building production is vastly different? In fact it's kind of a mystery! Buildings SEEM TO have a production baseline. I mean that's kind of why you need to expend resources (and time- which kind of is a resource but w/e) on them WHEN MADE they kind of produce like say... 2 food, 1 gold etc (said effects) for a lighthouse. WHETHER YOU HAVE A CITIZEN WORK THERE OR NOT correct? Plus I assume, it doubles (other than the 1 food per coastal/ lake tile and other non-specific, non-commodity based effects such as housing) if you HAVE a citizen work there (ie at least one citizen in the harbor district) THAN you have your second building, shipyard, that adds production (hammers) equal to the adjacency bonus.... so does THAT double if you add a second meeple? and so on?
I say this because LUXURY/ STRATEGIC resources are largely the same, it doesn't matter what you do with the tile, when you've expended a worker charge on them you've secured that resource for as long as you have ownership of that space. In my short experiment I took my citizen away from that tile. It didn't seem to make a difference.

In my initial investigation it seems to make very LITTLE difference in my cities (with multiple districts ofc) when I load up my buildings rather than work the tiles. The one thing I have to watch is my food output, but (and this is pretty much just me, looking almost solely at hammers and gold...) on the whole it didn't really matter. I use CQUI so it's easy to see my results, AND I only just did this but when it didn't seem to INSTANTLY make much difference I have to wonder why??

I mean I can see, for the most part, food production WILL bottom out ofc since most buildings don't produce food but... why don't I see LARGE increases to hammers or gold (science, faith or culture)??

So yeah, the comp won't work buildings I'd suspect cuz they're production isn't stated? Tile production is stated right there on the tile so. Do you 'professional' (I say that as anybody that can beat diety :x dude I die in chieftan...) civ players not work buildings or... I wish there was a way to tell the AI to prefer only tiles with improvements THAN buildings (unless your food is in the negative...)

 

[chazzycat]

Generally, just work the tiles for the most part. The yields from specialists aren't great, and are just flat yields like +2 production. They aren't multiplied in any way by adjacency bonuses.

Maybe if you are micromanaging to the extreme, they might be useful on occasion for a little extra production or something. But it's not going to move the needle much overall.

 

[Victoria]

I used to think it made little difference but then I did the stats. I am not convinced that for industrial zones it is that relevant unless the city is very poor at production in which case % wise it can make a good difference, which is rare.

To try to explain....

When a city is small growth is a key factor, every extra pop gives good % returns on a city while it is small but as it gets larger the % diminishes. As a city gets bigger the Ability to keep the city happy due to amenities reduces due to the way luxuries spread. There does seem to be a position where more housing makes little sense and optimum city size has been quoted at 6 by very skilled analysts... naturally with exception cities around the 10 mark.

This means there comes a time in any cities life where working additional food is pointless and that value on a tile should be ignored... so a coast tile could be deemed to only give 1 gold.

If we consider what we cannot get easily from tiles like science, there are limited ways we can generate it and yet if we can be faster with knowledge we win the arms race and the science victory race. A library has 1 citizen slot and a uni has 2. Each slot (for any district) produces 2 of the type with the exception of gold which is doubled. This means in a city where I can easily have 6 excess food I can place 3 pop into slots, in fact I am much better off doing so.

The reason for this is % wise 6 science is likely to be a better yield that 6 prod. Multiply the science over 10 cities and it is in fact a good % of your science yield. Science is applied globally while production is locally which also makes the slots in each city of equal value.

A good reason why science becomes better than production is later use of production to build tier 3 buildings is of much less value. A research lab may give a bit extra science but has a huge production cost and often is only in effect for a few 10’s of turns. The additional 6 science through slots cost 0 production ... well maybe a small loss over tiles not worked.... but not to build. The citizens are often there working, as you say, one food, one gold tiles.

The only real pain is the management of these slots can feel a bit micro management. If I click the city preference to science the slots will be filled so it is not too bad, it’s just the other pop distribution is not always optimal.

Production is so key early but does reduce in value and the ability to chop with a massive increase in return over time devalues the IZ even more. So to me the example of using IZ is of much less value. Science generally to me stands out as slots of best value unless under duress in a particular area like gold or CV threat.

Look at your Cities, if they are not going to grow for say 40 turns, drill in amd you will likely find a citizen working a 2 food tile or similar that is just wasting your time not being in a slot.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

As a general rule of thumb, I'd suggest work as much food as will allow your population to grow as quickly as possible to the lesser of (a) the amount of amenities you have or (b) size 10. (Personally, by the late game I also like to keep population below the level where every city is at +3 amenities, as I like the yield boost, but I'm not certain this is the best approach.)

As for what to work other than food, you won't go terribly wrong by simply counting up the combined yield and choosing the tile/building that provides the largest combined number. If the combined total is equal, then most of the time, science and culture > gold and faith > production.

Those are all rules of thumb. A little bit of science or culture will often be worth more than a lot of production, but not always, and not for every city (you need to be producing the things that get you boosts somewhere, so you need at least one good production city for that or a lot of gold to let you buy them).

So another rule of thumb could be: unless you're producing (a) something that will give a eureka or an inspiration, or (b) a district, or (c) a Tier 1 or 2 building, that you can't afford to buy with gold or faith (buy any and all of the above with gold or faith when possible), then assign your population to maximize the amount of science, culture, gold and faith you can get from them.

 

[Knowname]

so basically it's really only a priority when your pop is 10/12+ but what I'm thinking is the card that adds 100% of commercial district building production, I love that card. Does it affect the peeps that work the building as well or just the bonus'? VERY good discussion it is helping me greatly, much appreciate all replys!

 

[Victoria]

Does it affect the peeps that work the building as well or just the bonus'

If you are talking about the adjacency card, sadly not... would be an pretty powerful card for science and you can already race away if you chop and concentrate.

 

[WideCoast]

Sorry if this goes OT, but it feels a bit dump to me to start a new thread when this one pretty much already covers all I want to know. So to be sure, generally speaking you should:
Aim for a bit ovet 20food to get to 10pop?
which will give you 4(?) districts,which should pretty much be campus>harbor or commercial> IZ/culture/holy site/encampent/sport/gplaza/aqueduct depending on your victory type/current need? With preferably 3+ adjacency if possible.
If you got excess pop you should put them to work district buildings?

Thanks!

 

[Victoria]

The right place to validate @WideCoast

you should:Aim for a bit ovet 20food to get to 10pop?

It depends on how your mind works, I know mine works differently to most but I never think like that... I tend to think, how many good food tiles, what districts do I really honestly need, what wonders do I need where, and there are plenty more considerations above food, then I find most cities stick around 5-6 and I'll have maybe 2 or 3 pop 10-12.

If you got excess pop you should put them to work district buildings?

No, you get them to work where there is the most value or need. You may slot 3 workshops quickly to get an engineer you like cheaper then swap to theaters as gorgo is going gaga on culture... or on top of that lovely bronze you are going to harvest in 20 turns.

 

[Knowname]

I just let my cities grow and grow and grow xD I wish there was an easy way to stunt growth but thinking that hard gives me a headache. Anyway I think I saw a thing (in game, on the district's pop up description like hmm... maybe I should look there duh... or perhaps it was because at the time I didn't have CQUI so maybe it's not displayed unmodded) that says every specialists adds x number of some resource. That would have instantly answered my question lol but I like the discussion this turned into.

Again though, great tip as to (try to) limit food production to 20. That's easy enough to follow... but what if you wanna get to 10 pop quicker? I wish there was a way to quickly and easily set a limit... like donate the rest of my food to the weaker cities.

 

[jasper]

Id rather work by the beach instead of inside a factory too.

Id like to think in the end that single citizen gained something even if the city did not.

 

[Roxlimn]

Interesting discussion. By this valuation, a Mission (Spain's unique improvement) is a massive benefit, because you can spam it anywhere, and specifically because you can put them around Campuses for +2 Science +2 Faith, once you research Exploration - which is just about when food and production start becoming less valuable. Better if you can go cross-continent for +2 more faith, but the base yield seems fairly good already, if the other option is to stick the citizen in a building for +2 Science.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

As farms improve it become much easier to make use of the buildings which is generally one of the few ways to produce extra science, Culture or faith and thus especially nice if your civ don't have a unique improvement that do the same.

A good mech farm can produce 7 food which mean a grassland mech farm can give as much as 9 food per turn, even the optimal feudal farm is still 4 food which is enough to support a few specialist or food low tiles. Basically farms and specialist act as a decent way to increase resources such as science, Culture and faith.

I generally grow cities as large as 30 pops or more while I also pretty much have cities in every possible Place I can build them. These large cities have no problems with producing late game stuff and all other resources are very decent. Amenties are not a problem as national parks and late game Entertainment as well as cards help alot.

 

[Victoria]

A good mech farm can produce 7 food which

A good mech farm likely means you were not slotting enough earlier if rushing for a win.
Yes 30 cities take up your card space, it is what the AI does with their slots, not the most efficient but being fat can be fun.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

What cities should be allowed to grow to 10 population?
How many usually total would you say?

So those core cities should get stagnated at 10 pop?
The rest of my cities should not be allowed to grow past 6 pop to play more optimally?

 

[Victoria]

There is no hard and fast rules to the questions. It is about what wonders, districts and late game strat do I need. It is also about just what luxuries do I need. You may think that getting that tea plantation going is a great thing for trade and gold and happiness but if i had used that last charge to chop in an extra chariot, a monument, a library or finish the pyramids. It really is about just what you need to win as quickly as possible... are amenities that good? How unhappy can you survive with (quite a lot in fact) and the fact the game designers have made unhappiness too weak in this version for it to be considered of value.
Now with that in mind you would think hell, lets grow our cities huge and unhappy. Especially of you are warmongering this can be a risky business and unhappiness will cause -6 loyalty in a newly taken city which is quite nasty with all that enemy pop pressure around. So the secret is it keep your cities small and just get the amenities you need to survive, the coliseum is mighty fine in this regard, certainly in the top OP wonders and hence is a must as is city planning.
All of the above comes down to using those builders wisely, chopping that wooded silk rather than spinning it. That prod jump for a short game is so important.

What cities should be allowed to grow to 10 population?

The answer is any you think you can get there in the time frame available and have enough potential to add value to the game. If you set your self a target of 170 turns, this is not unreasonably short.... you probbaly need to be at 10 pop by T120 to be of real value.
I generally see no issue with a coliseum city being 10 pop as it has additional amenities. Now with the rationalism type 10 pop situation there is more need for 10 pop cities, think of them as 4 district cities. Campus + Theater + CH/Harbour + 1 other. You want to be able to get some great food tiles so a few pop can feed while the rest can be slotted into specialist slots... it is about rushing your science/culture/faith so why beat about the bush. Additionally your Rationalism card comes into play with +3 adjacency and often to get that you need adjacent districts so you need 10 pop cities... the 2 merge... 10 pop and +3 adjacency. 3 of the 3 adjacency can be got from adjacent districts fairly often.

So those core cities should get stagnated at 10 pop?

The real question is why make them bigger than 10... at 10 you get the great bonuses back, after that you get misery for very little reward... in fact when you think about a 15 pop city that is -5% of everything due to unhappiness and a 10 pop city at +5% due to happiness then you really do have to ask why.... Now if the reply is build an ED....why? all that production to get what, a few % difference? To me an ED is a sign you have grown too far and are no longer efficient in your play, that production should have gone elsewhere or the pop slotted in buildings. The only real exception is Great Zim where you cannot help growing but should be ready for it.

The rest of my cities should not be allowed to grow past 6 pop to play more optimally?

I struggle with this "6" theory. I think the math is too weak and there is too many other factors. I much prefer 4... and with 4 I do not need water nor granaries. 4 is 2 districts and 1 amenity..... 5 pop normally allows you to slot what you want but 6 pop is an extra amenity. a 4 pop city allows the 2 district +1 adjacency, small but all adds up. TBH I really do not micro manage this stuff too much, I just plant a city on a coast or in the middle of the plain and do not build a granary, if I need more pop then sure by a granary, make a couple of farms, but chopping in a cow or wheat... or both can get you to 4 fast and then you stay there... 2 early districts placed. To me the most important thing is coliseum, adjacency, and chopping potential with regard to placement. Water is just so low down the list.

All of the above is for the fast game and efficiency only. I do not play only this way, quite the opposite, I prefer a longer more relaxed game but being aware of the efficiency does make a longer game more enjoyable too.

 

[Roxlimn]

There's a lot of chopping involved in all these calculations. What if I prefer not to chop? Let's say it's a play preference. Do the tiny cities still apply?

 

[Victoria]

There's a lot of chopping involved in all these calculations. What if I prefer not to chop? Let's say it's a play preference. Do the tiny cities still apply?

For the coliseum sure... to not underrate that beast.
If you look at a lot of cities you have and just how many good tiles they have (+5 tiles I call them) it is often 4-6. Maybe you can look at it in that way, its just your game will be longer if you do not chop. And that is the point.

The question above is purely for the most efficient fast game which 100% includes that chop. If you do not chop your game will be longer. And if your game will be longer then there is much more value in building mines and having larger cities. But the rule for above 10 is still there. If you have more than 10 pop in cities (other then exceptions like great zim) then you are doing so for pleasure or cannot be bothered limiting growth. This is all fine.

In most of my games I will chop but not everything, not to the manic level the purists will use. Game time is not a race for me but I also do appreciate that deforestation is a HUGE historical fact. I grew up in New Zealand and they denuded huge amounts of the North Island just because they like sheep.

 

[Roxlimn]

Yeah. I prefer having the trees around. It's just for the looks of it, mostly. I notice that my lower pop cities just have crap production. And I do notice many players complaining about it as if it were a game bug. It's not. It's just that lower pop cities don't harvest a lot of cogs from the tiles, and therefore have little production. I'm pushing population both for outputs and for expanded district allowance. Thirteen is more normative for me, sometimes 16 or more. My games are longer, but I prefer that, too. I like actually playing the sim aspect and pushing toy soldiers around. Can't do that as much if it goes too fast.

For instance, if I'm Norway, I'd want Holy Site for the unique building, Harbor, Commercial District for the combo (in some cities), Campus, plus one other - Industrial for Factories, ED for units, and so on. That's 5 Districts. Six if I want to play with air units and the Spaceport or Theaters. Without chops, pushing 60-100 cogs in cities is necessary to have reasonable build times for various items.

This isn't for fastest play, which of course will just decimate the map under current rules, or high difficulty setting which will focus on stealing AI stuff.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

@Victoria

I think I am starting to understand a little better.
If you want a fast victory with Domination you want to keep pop at 4 and place cities in all possible spots.
2 Districts and don't worry so much about happiness.
Worry more about chopping the map down and rolling the AI faster never letting up.
Chop your way to 4 pop instead of improvements... I have to admit I haven't done that but going to try it.
Don't bother with religion right?
Worry about getting horses and knights is the key correct?
What turn would you say that I should be getting up the Colosseum and should it usually be in the Capital?
Is the Entertainment District usually the 3rd build for Districts?

 

[Victoria]

Don't bother with religion right?

It's a different game, quite specialized and really depends on how quickly the enemy can get apostles so really aimed at high levels. Get your base game sorted and then think about specialized approaches. I am quite happy for you to post a save and we can work through it if you think it would help.

Worry about getting horses and knights is the key correct?

If you want to go there then sure. I played a game last night with England (no ships or habours) and i took out china with archers and then spread to 10 cities, that's all you need.... you can go for knight and the smash approach but that's then really domination right?
Your KEY tech is printing... not knights.

What turn would you say that I should be getting up the Colosseum and should it usually be in the Capital?

The key thing is pyramids first if you can because those extra builder charges are underrated... 4 chops and Magnus, in return you get a free four chop builder. If you use 2 builders for it then those 2 builders are left with a chop each which becomes 2 chops with the pyramid.... its a no brainer (if you can find sand). Coli come with entertainment so it will not be before T60 easily. You then need to build the ED and the Arena in an adjacent tile... and the Coli must be on flat land. Basically you ideally want to plan your cities around where it will be so you can get around 7-8 cities getting the benefit, capital is not important in this. pyramids, Coli, maybe oracle, maybe Great Library if going V well but that's more tricky. Remember a wonder is not just for xmas, its for theatre adjacency too.

s the Entertainment District usually the 3rd build for Districts?

The ED is normally the district you build for Coli once and that is it unless you really wanted a loyalty push at the front. The Coli is +2 Amenities per city within 6 tiles so 8 cities = 16 amenities just from the Coli, who needs ED?

The key thing, not just for CV but any V really is culture.. push culture... new government or theaters at the latest early 50's.
Getting the +2 writer card slotted ASAP in the wildcard slot, get at least one theater ready for a writer, writers are a huge boost to culture.
But you should be getting those settlers out too, there is a lot to do in a short time, you will make mistakes, use 1 save and replay to learn is far far better than many games.