Should I care about happiness or city growth?

planetfall

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I play Sci/Dom victory games in vanilla civ6. I have not paid any attention to city growth or happiness. Would either matter?

Actually I pay attention to growth for the first 7 cities when under 5, but beyond that ignore. I just noticed that 3 to 8 cities are not accelerated. Does working to keep all cities at maximum growth really make a difference in the game, or is it just busy work?

Happiness has been mostly happy with a few above. Would it make a difference in game play to really go after more resources and keep happiness pegged to the max?

Just curious how these features effect your gameplay, or if you have just been ignoring them for more important game aspects.
 
For growth, I would mostly focus on having enough housing instead of having enough excess food after the early game. Its not worth it after settling your first four or five cities unless you are really into micromanaging things.

For amenities and happiness, they are worth keeping up with because they do give you a solid increase yields in any city with positive amenities. The AI also trades away their excess amenities pretty cheaply so, unless everyone hates you, it easy enough to do and a few, well-placed Entertainment Complexes can provide a lot of amenities once you unlock Zoos.
 
I honestly don't care that much about either of those, unless I specifically need another district slot for something important, or need amenities for loyalty reasons. Even at the very hardest of difficulties, housing and amenities are essentially something you can safely ignore if you don't feel like min maxing those.
 
For amenities and happiness, they are worth keeping up with because they do give you a solid increase yields in any city with positive amenities. The AI also trades away their excess amenities pretty cheaply so, unless everyone hates you, it easy enough to do and a few, well-placed Entertainment Complexes can provide a lot of amenities once you unlock Zoos.
It's quite easy to find luxury resources as well early game, so I too do not really need to build EC districts till late. I usually try to build Water Parks though once I reach Natural History, considering their regional bonuses are bigger than ECs, and more than likely you'll have coastal cities to build one.
 
It's quite easy to find luxury resources as well early game, so I too do not really need to build EC districts till late.
Yeah, I rarely prioritize an EC unless I want the Coliseum but I will build a few if I have a good location for a future Zoo so I can build it immediately after unlocking. I'll also build an EC if I don't have an immediate need for another district because they will provide amenities and allow your other sources to be used in a different city.
 
Housing is weird. Here are 2 cities, both with 4 pop, but city17 with 1.1 growth needs 24.7 food to grow but city15 with 0 growth only needs 23 food to grow. Huh, I thought it would be the opposite. Both have the same happiness. Perhaps I'll go back to ignoring and just let it happen as it will. I was just wondering if faster city growth would mean more worked tiles and more production and more Sci/Unit production ability. It kind of works, but is messy and takes a long long time to yield benefits. I'm trying to improve middle game between Monarchy and Lasers.
 

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Housing is weird. Here are 2 cities, both with 4 pop, but city17 with 1.1 growth needs 24.7 food to grow but city15 with 0 growth only needs 23 food to grow. Huh, I thought it would be the opposite. Both have the same happiness. Perhaps I'll go back to ignoring and just let it happen as it will. I was just wondering if faster city growth would mean more worked tiles and more production and more Sci/Unit production ability. It kind of works, but is messy and takes a long long time to yield benefits. I'm trying to improve middle game between Monarchy and Lasers.
Its hard to tell for sure with the images you provided but, from what I can tell, City15 is generating 8 food which is enough to maintain its four pops while City17 is generating 11 food which is enough to maintain its four pops plus create a new pop. Every pop requires two food upkeep and then any additional food production goes towards creating a new pop.

EDIT: Highlighted the key numbers you would need to pay attention to.
FoodGrowth.jpg
 
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You can safely skip Magnus early on if you have cities with high food yield. The -1 Pop from Settlers will hardly matter.

Population is also the main variable when it comes to loyalty, so high pop cities will have a significant impact on surrounding foreign cities. This depends a lot on map settings, but high food / high housing will be very impactful in more crammed settings, allowing you to gobble up their cities.

Speed of city growth in newly founded cities is also important if you're trying to settle far in tiles with negative loyalty.

In regards to happiness, it can be more important to keep your neighbours low than yours high if you cities are already content. I avoid trading luxuries with a neighbouring civ who has negative amenities.
 
Just curious how these features effect your gameplay, or if you have just been ignoring them for more important game aspects
It depends on your gameplay
If you are wanting the most output from your big science city then keeping them happy with local amusements helps a lot.
A very large fast growth civ like khmer or Kupe can avoid science for a while due to growth.
Some people's gameplay is just around getting fat cities and when your cities get to 30 you do need to be keeping them happy
Regardless, the AI pays so mush for early trae goods it os worth being a bit miserable in your wealth
War weariness just is a puff of air, don't worry about it (sadly)
otherwise... meh, whatever, variation is what I like anyway
 
How did you get your 17th city? Did you take it from another player or settle it yourself? If you settled it yourself, it's likely an extremely low-value investment. If my math is correct, the 17th settler should cost 530 production (normal speed). Let's say it took you 10 turns to produce that settler with production or with gold. It probably took you at least 4 turns to walk the settler to the new city location. Assuming you cleared 50% of techs or civics, this city's first district should cost around 300 production. If you can somehow quickly get this city's production to around 15p/t, it'd still take it 20 turns to get its first district, and that would be just the first step to getting it up to speed compared to the rest of your cities. Once it becomes as good as your average city, it should contribute to around 5% of your empire-wide yields, and to get there, it will probably take at least 50 turns since you decided to produce that settler. On top of that, this city may end up reducing your overall yields because it leeches amenities from your other cities. At this stage of the game (much earlier, actually), it's much more efficient to focus on happiness in order to boost your empire-wide yields.

Growth is important mostly because of district slots, which are extremely valuable resources. It's very important that you focus on both acquiring district slots quickly and conserving them, and you can do both with growth. In a lot of my games, I build either one campus or none at all, and it's rare that I build more than three. You can get a decent amount of science by obtaining as many eurekas as you can and growing your cities. To a lesser extent, growth also helps increase your culture. Aside from building monuments, it's usually the most efficient method of increasing culture because it's hard to build high-adjacency theatre squares. Growth is also a great way of securing more production, which makes industrial zones less important as well. Skipping on these districts can allow you to focus on 1-3 key district types in most of your cities.
 
How did you get your 17th city? Did you take it from another player or settle it yourself? If you settled it yourself, it's likely an extremely low-value investment. If my math is correct, the 17th settler should cost 530 production (normal speed). Let's say it took you 10 turns to produce that settler with production or with gold. It probably took you at least 4 turns to walk the settler to the new city location. Assuming you cleared 50% of techs or civics, this city's first district should cost around 300 production. If you can somehow quickly get this city's production to around 15p/t, it'd still take it 20 turns to get its first district, and that would be just the first step to getting it up to speed compared to the rest of your cities. Once it becomes as good as your average city, it should contribute to around 5% of your empire-wide yields, and to get there, it will probably take at least 50 turns since you decided to produce that settler. On top of that, this city may end up reducing your overall yields because it leeches amenities from your other cities. At this stage of the game (much earlier, actually), it's much more efficient to focus on happiness in order to boost your empire-wide yields.

Growth is important mostly because of district slots, which are extremely valuable resources. It's very important that you focus on both acquiring district slots quickly and conserving them, and you can do both with growth. In a lot of my games, I build either one campus or none at all, and it's rare that I build more than three. You can get a decent amount of science by obtaining as many eurekas as you can and growing your cities. To a lesser extent, growth also helps increase your culture. Aside from building monuments, it's usually the most efficient method of increasing culture because it's hard to build high-adjacency theatre squares. Growth is also a great way of securing more production, which makes industrial zones less important as well. Skipping on these districts can allow you to focus on 1-3 key district types in most of your cities.

It would be ok of he did not hard build the 17th settler.
Some players war and pillage while developing their empire, where you get an constant source of faith and gold.

It only takes new city to grow to pop 2 in 5~8 turns. If one chops wheat/cattle, can rush buy settler on the turn.
Repeat and rinse with satellite cities, wide-expansion empire can be setup rather quickly.

Rush buy districts with Lv4 Renya/Moksha, new cities only priority is to grow to pop 4 asap.
 
It would be ok of he did not hard build the 17th settler.
Some players war and pillage while developing their empire, where you get an constant source of faith and gold.

It only takes new city to grow to pop 2 in 5~8 turns. If one chops wheat/cattle, can rush buy settler on the turn.
Repeat and rinse with satellite cities, wide-expansion empire can be setup rather quickly.

Rush buy districts with Lv4 Renya/Moksha, new cities only priority is to grow to pop 4 asap.

I don't see how this would work out well in most games. If you're settling this many cities, usually one of the following is true:
1. Your cities are so close together they prevent each other from growing
2. Your later cities have bad land

If I'm able to pillage so much gold and faith that I can produce settlers so quickly that I can settle my 17th city early enough to make it a worthwhile investment, why would I be buying settlers? I would just take cities from my opponents.

How many cities will even be able to make good use of Reyna? I usually assign the first four governor titles to Pingala. I need another four to be able to start buying districts with Reyna, and that means I can only start buying districts after I've unlocked either Guilds or Medieval Faires. I'd say I'm doing really well if I get to this point by turn 100. If I want to move Reyna around as quickly as I can, the best I can do is probably two districts. I'd expect that to cost around 1500 gold in the first city that gets this treatment. Let's say this first city was my 11th city overall (so we'll be able to do this in 7 cities). This settler should've cost ~1000g with Monumentality. I had to also buy a builder to chop resources to accelerate the city's growth. Assuming it took 5 turns to settle this city, I spent ~2500g in 10 turns to buy a settler, settle it, let Reyna settle and buy 2 districts in it. I need to do this 7 times. Obviously, I can buy a settler and walk it to its destination while Reyna is settling in my latest city, so let's say there's an overlap of five turns between two cities. That means, to settle and develop seven cities this way, I have to spend ~18k gold (probably much more because of inflation of districts, settlers and builders) over the course of 40 turns (450g per turn). Obviously, we can pillage and use faith as well, but that is a lot of gold and faith to be investing, and keep it mind this doesn't include investments we need to be making for our older cities.

If I divided my empire into two parts, the 10 pre-Reyna cities vs. the 7 post-Reyna cities, how much towards my empire's cumulative yields (starting from the point I produced the 11th settler) would the latter contribute until the end of the game? Usually, I consider 180 turns to be a very good finish for a culture game and 210 for science. Since the OP's looking for a science victory, we're basically looking at maybe around 80 turns on average for the latter group to make their contribution. Considering their much later start and likely inferior land quality, I'd be surprised if these cities could account for more than 20% of the cumulative yields, and that's before we consider the effects of reduced happiness due to having more cities and war weariness from prolonged warfare.

In my opinion, this is much worse than these two alternatives in most games:
1. Settle a few great cities, giving them enough room to grow, and managing amenities well.
2. Invest heavily into military to not only pillage but to take enemy cities. This way, we can get semi-developed cities in good locations that don't encroach severely on our other cities, while weakening rivals. In addition, we can make good use of Warlord's Throne, instead of Ancestral Hall, which I assumed we'd already built in our Reyna scenario, which is why I didn't include the cost of builders required to chop for growth.

There definitely are some exceptions. Germany can build two districts in a new city, while other can only build two, and the production from Hansa can get new cities going very quickly. Plus, Germany doesn't need to worry about growth. Cree can grow new cities quickly with domestic trade routes, although that might mean you want to assign two early governor titles to Magnus.
 
If I'm able to pillage so much gold and faith that I can produce settlers so quickly that I can settle my 17th city early enough to make it a worthwhile investment, why would I be buying settlers? I would just take cities from my opponents.
There is alot of different play styles out there, just try to stay open minded.

I usually assign the first four governor titles to Pingala.
This is the traditional way. There are new gambits out now, don't set limits.




Here is a good example of a Chinese player pillage his way to a fast science victory, t121 (it's in Chinese) at normal speed.
The poor guy had Tamar in his face (6 tiles away), he had only 2 cities for the most part of early game.
微信图片_20231022205659.jpg

He fought his way through walled cities, developed them, and farm off from these cities.
turn 67, half way through the game and he only generates 6 science per turn, 27 culture per turn, he wins by turn 121.

微信图片_20231022210738.jpg
微信图片_20231022211245.jpg


Even-though it's not a wide expansion game, but one can get the point (the raw power from pillages).
If you beeline early TSquare+building and pillage it, lv4 Renya/Moksha comes really fast.

btw, t180 culture t200 science games are not that fast.

Moderator Action: Please do NOT post spoilers for games of the month that are currently being played. You must wait to post things like this until the game has closed. leif
sorry, my bad @leif erikson
 
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There is alot of different play styles out there, just try to stay open minded.


This is the traditional way. There are new gambits out now, don't set limits.


Recent Gotm 169, 11th cities, 8 districts by t70 in a peaceful game without Pingala.
View attachment 675480




Here is a good example of a Chinese player pillage his way to a fast science victory, t121 (it's in Chinese) at normal speed.
The poor guy had Tamar in his face (6 tiles away), he had only 2 cities for the most part of early game.
He fought his way through walled cities, developed them, and farm off from these cities.
Even-though it's not a wide expansion game, but one can get the point (the raw power from pillages).

If you beeline early TSquare+building and pillage it, lv4 Renya/Moksha comes really fast.

btw, t180 culture t200 science games are not that fast.

Interesting. Care to explain your overall strategy here? It doesn't look like you built any theatre square in this game. I guess you beelined Colosseum with Magnus? (I can't tell if "Wonders: 0" is you) When did pillaging kick in? I imagine pillaging wasn't relevant for your first three cities, but you still managed to get three cities under 30 turns. I guess that's mostly from the marshes?

Do you have the seed for this save? I want to replicate the setup but without game modes and on Deity.
 
Interesting. Care to explain your overall strategy here? It doesn't look like you built any theatre square in this game. I guess you beelined Colosseum with Magnus? (I can't tell if "Wonders: 0" is you) When did pillaging kick in? I imagine pillaging wasn't relevant for your first three cities, but you still managed to get three cities under 30 turns. I guess that's mostly from the marshes?

Do you have the seed for this save? I want to replicate the setup but without game modes and on Deity.

Welcome to join us @ 6otM.
game seed: 6otM169 Announcement

Its good to complete the same game and exchange different ideas.:w00t:

There's not a cookie-cutter strategy that fits all situations.
The top part was about peaceful expansion, and using governs other than Pingala to help empire grow wide, than tall.
11 cities by t100 is way too slow.

The bottom part was referring to the Chinese player pillage his way through fast science vic.
Two very different strategies.

Game modes I have on are to help illustrate points on screenshots, not let tools do the calculations for me.
Maybe it's a culture thing, pretty common among Chinese Civ VI youtubers.
In some ways, deity AI makes the game easier. It's actually harder to win fast in lower difficulty.
 
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Interesting discussion.

rocksinmypath
1. Interesting, I'll have to check on cost of city and turns to get to speed. Great discussion.
2. this city may end up reducing your overall yields because it leeches amenities from your other cities.
Please explain how this works
3. this city may end up reducing your overall yields because it leeches amenities from your other cities.
How does growing city increase science.
 
Interesting discussion.

rocksinmypath
1. Interesting, I'll have to check on cost of city and turns to get to speed. Great discussion.
2. this city may end up reducing your overall yields because it leeches amenities from your other cities.
Please explain how this works
3. this city may end up reducing your overall yields because it leeches amenities from your other cities.
How does growing city increase science.

Typically, one copy of a luxury you have provides four amenities that are applied to four different cities. If you have four copies of a luxury, they'll serve 16 cities total. The game automatically chooses cities that should get the amenities from a luxury resource. I believe it tends to balance out happiness across your empire. So, for example, let's say you have four cities, all of which have +5 amenities (ecstatic). You also have several different types of luxuries, but only one copy of each. If I'm not mistaken, when you settle your fifth city, this city takes amenities that were previously assigned to your older cities, so you may end up with five happy cities, whereas you had four ecstatic ones before.

Each citizen provides 0.5 science and 0.3 culture per turn (Pingala adds 1 to each). If you can grow your capital fast enough to boost Civil Service, while keeping it ecstatic, you can get 23 science and 21.6 culture per turn with a monument but without a campus:

science: (10 * (0.5 per pop + 1 per pop from Pingala) + 2 from palace) * (1 + 0.2 from happiness + 0.15 from Pingala)
culture: (10 * (0.3 per pop + 1 per pop from Pingala) + 1 from palace + 2 from monument) * (same modifier as before)

Without a single campus, including population yields from your other cities and with a bit of luck (e.g. science from tiles and envoys in 1-2 science city states), you can achieve ~30 science per turn by early mid-game. That's equivalent to ~50 science per turn assuming you can get all the eurekas you want. Typically, I feel like that's good enough. If I invest too heavily into science early game, that might mean I miss out on eureka opportunities, which typically also help out in other ways. For instance, I can boost Horseback Riding by improving a horse tile, which gives me more production, housing and strategic resources I can sell for gold.
 
Rationalism policy card provides +50% science from Campus buildings in cities with 15 pop. Playing at Emp-Imm-Deity, I usually have about 20 cities, with ½ to ¾ of them getting the bonus, so it can be a big jump. Grand Opera does the same for Culture, but I'm not sure that much more Culture makes a big difference in achieving any of the Victory Conditions, that late in the game, so I rarely use it. Rationalism isn't as big a jump as International Space Agency, but it comes earlier. A lot of times, Int'l Space Agency is just gilding the lily, or I'm just trying to get the tedious endgame over with faster. This is all provided you're going for a space race VC, of course. If you're pursuing something else, maybe neither of these policy cards provides the boost you'd need to cross the finish line sooner.

On the whole, I would say you should be aware of happiness and growth, but you don't really need to worry about them. Don't punt on them, either, but it's pretty easy to see to both, just in the course of handling your business.

I do love the Colosseum - maybe I just watch too many violent sports irl :lol: - and the AI seems to leave it to me most of the time. I was genuinely surprised in my current game when one of the other Civs built it well ahead of when they usually will.
 
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