Simultaneous moves with PitBoss

[dribnairb]

We're currently playing Civ4 with 4 players using PitBoss with simultaneous turns. We've come across a problem which others must have encountered, so does anyone have any suggestions on how to work around this:

When the last player finishes his turn and the next round starts, that player can move their units first on the next turn. In particular, this happens when players are not all logged in at the same time. This means that if players are at war, the player who moves last on one turn can gain a decisive advantage by effectively moving their units twice without any response from their opponent (This can lead to a 'stalemate' where both players don't end their turn as soon as they can, but wait for the turn timer to nearly run out.)

Clearly, the other player now gets a chance to do the same in reverse, but the damage may already be done. For example, a fast moving unit such as Cavalry can move four spaces in enemy territory and raze a city before any opposition is encountered.

The solution seems to be to not use simultaneous moves and use turn based moves. However, is it possible to change an existing game from simultaneous moves to turn based? And wouldn't this slow down the game considerably? Or are there any other methods people employ to get around this problem?

 

[pholkhero]

I think that's called the (dreaded) "double-move" and i thought they worked out the bug for the most part, but maybe not for pitboss yet...

 

[Herandar IV]

It is inherent in the game design. I don't think it can be called a bug. It is an exploit. I do not believe there is a way to fix it, besides an artifical block being placed on the last player to move for a set period of time. Which in turn creates problems...

 

[Darkhrse]

Hmmm...could be worrisome. I thought that turning on simultaneous turns only meant that players could play their turn at any time but the "action" doesn't really start until all players have played and it would run in the proper move order, meaning, the units of the first player will have the first set of moves, followed by the second and so on.

How do we mitigate against this? If it can't be done by the game, perhaps there is an operating procedure that all players can follow to prevent this exploit from being utilized.

 

[the oob]

Hmmm...could be worrisome. I thought that turning on simultaneous turns only meant that players could play their turn at any time but the "action" doesn't really start until all players have played...

Master of Orion 2 did that, and it worked pretty well.

...and it would run in the proper move order, meaning, the units of the first player will have the first set of moves, followed by the second and so on.

This may not be necessary, it could be done in a true simultaneous fashion. For instance: civ A has a swordsman next to civ B's spearman. Both players elect to attack the other, so when the game moves the units (when everyone has finished their turn), both count as attackers and neither gets any defensive bonuses from terrain etc.

A nice feature would be if cavalry units get a bonus against infantry when this happens, to represent them charging the enemy.

Would this work, or is there something I'm forgetting?

Basically though, there is a need for the game to seperate the 'building' phase from the 'movement' phase.

 

[Dandridge]

Yes, in simultaneous Pitboss and online multiplayer games it should only be possible to give movement orders to units, but the actual "physical" movement of the units should not happen before the last player has pressed the next turn button.

In the current Civ4 simultaneous Pitboss game design some kind of "gentelemen rules" should be applied in order to get turn based move orders. Anyway in simultaneous online game the one with fastest mouse wrist gets the advantage to move 1st which effectively can mean dreaded "double-move" action.

 

[Darkhrse]

I actually would have a problem if an Simultaneous Turns MP game would actually behave like a true Simultaneous Turns game. It would be too much like RTS and I've already had my fill of them.

I guess I'll have to see how it works in our current game.

 

[buldozer]

Now i hope that in the future the PB will be able to switch from simultaneous to turn-based turns. Even though it will slow down the game a lot.

In our current game dribnairb proposed a solution called "Gentlemen's Rule" , which i think would work if all the players are mature enough and want a fair play. I think it is pretty simple – “Whoever finishes their turn last doesn't immediately move their units, but instead gives their opponents chance to move theirs first”.

I can think of two possibilities:

1) The first player to start a war can move his units first (element of surprise , etc.) , the opposite player cant move his units until the attacking player has ended his turn . In the 2nd turn the defending player can move his units first and the attacking player has to wait.
Now this solution does not solve the 2x movements that a player can make. It is clear that between the 1st and 2nd turn the defending player can move his units 2x and between 2nd and 3rd the attacking can move his units 2x.
But this solution distributes this 2x advantage equally between both parties (if only 2 are involved) and adds a turn-based pace to the war so to speak.


2) The first player to start a war can move his units first (element of surprise , etc.) , the opposite player cant move his units until the attacking player has ended his turn. In the 2nd turn again the attacking player can move and the defending has to wait. So basically at the beginning of the turn only the attacking player can move his units and turn is always ended by the defending player. Thus eliminating the 2x movement problem. The only “disadvantage” here is that the attacking player always move his units first in a turn but if you think about it its exactly what happens in wars in PBEM games.

I think the 2nd possibility will work better.

The rule applies :
1) only when at war
2) only for the military units
3) only if 2 player are at war
4) if all the players agree to follow the rule.



If some one has better solution or add-on to this one please do post.

 

[dribnairb]

I think, the second solution proposed by buldozer above is the same as not selecting simultaneous moves in the multiplayer setup (although I've not tried this so I could be wrong). However, I think it also has to apply to non military units too (a player could move their worker/settler to safety with the double move). I don't like the idea of the first solution because it means each player gets a double move, and I think the aim should be to remove the double move completely (at least, prevent any player from gaining any advantage from it).

It was mentioned above that this problem had been solved for other MP games. How was this done? I wouldn't have thought this exploit was exclusive to PitBoss (although it might be less noticeable in normal online play).

 

[Herandar IV]

It was mentioned above that this problem had been solved for other MP games. How was this done? I wouldn't have thought this exploit was exclusive to PitBoss (although it might be less noticeable in normal online play).

Easy. You would select your movement, then end your turn. Once everyone ended their turn, all selected movements would take place.

This isn't something that I would want. I'd rather deal with the occasional doublemove (and ostracize anyone that obviously does it intentionally) than change how the game plays.

 

[DonaldKipper]

simultaneous moves has been around for years now - in civ3

the easiest counter is to use an appropriate sentry net so you have several turns warning anyway - civ 4 even lets you see what is in cities so you can see if a large stack is being prepared

further, the way city defence works, double moving cavalry will not be able to bombard city defences down first

if you know it can happen and plan for it, its just another factor to consider

regarding 'fastest mouse wrist first", if you're using the mouse, you just lost
consider which is quicker, tap of a keyboard button, or click drag hold release

i dont see much point to pitboss without simultaneous moves

 

[Corossol]

I'd rather deal with the occasional doublemove (and ostracize anyone that obviously does it intentionally) than change how the game plays.

This is pretty much how we do it in the Pitboss games I play: you move when you happen to log on even if that means 2 turns, but stalling to cause this to happen is frowned upon. So basically in wartime you have to always prepare for your opponent moving twice in a row, which is difficult for the units you can see and impossible for those you don't. It can get quite stressful, and perceived abuses of double-turning have become a point of conflict between players in every major war we've had, unfortunately there seems to be no enforceable rule against it.

 

[Dandridge]

That's right. There is currently no practical rule to stop the possibility of double-movement. So I think it's just fair that they are allowed and everyone must be prepared to face them.