So much for Alliances

[SunZsu]

Could someone explain to me how, if I have an alliance with Babylon against Germany, then how can Babylon turn around about 3 turns later and agree to an alliance with Iriquois against me and then declare war against me? ....

this doesn't make any sense ....

playing on Emperor level , basic game w/patch 1.29f ...

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the Khan is NOT pleased

 

[billindenver]

Well, Italy had military alliances with Germany in both WWI and WWII, and later changed sides in both wars and fought against Germany.

Same thing happened to me a couple games ago. France sneak attacked me, so I enlisted the rest of the world in MA's. I decided to nuke France for attacking me like that, but as soon as I nuked them, Persia backed out of the alliance and declared war on me. When I nuked Persia the following turn, Rome (also my MA partner) declared war on me. When I nuked Rome, England declared war on me.

 

[Gainy]

if you want to avoid all of this hassel, then simply get mutual protection pacts with everyone, plant a spy in your enemy's capital, really annoy them, then try feebely to expose one of their moles. they will declare war on you - then everyone will declare war on them

this works for me

 

[SunZsu]

the really bizarre thing about this is that Babylon continued to fight Germany while at the same time fighting me - this after we supposedly had an alliance ... and I didn't nuke anyone .... are they supposed to come up in the diplomatic window and say they renounce the alliance (because they didn't)? ....

I think there is a quirk in the game program which allows MPPs to over-ride alliances, but it seems there shoud be an algorithm that says which takes precedence, alliance or MPP - maybe whichever came first ought to be the pecking order .... but at the moment I find this just weird .....

 

[TheNiceOne]

Originally posted by SunZsu
the really bizarre thing about this is that Babylon continued to fight Germany while at the same time fighting me - this after we supposedly had an alliance ... and I didn't nuke anyone .... are they supposed to come up in the diplomatic window and say they renounce the alliance (because they didn't)? ....

This isn't too weird. After all, Babylon did declare war against Germany three turns ago, and declaring a war against you don't mean automatic peace with Germany. Germany and Babylon aren't likely to want to talk with each other for a little while

You didn't get any popup, because when a civ declares war against you, all your deals are automatically broken as well, this means alliances (as you had), MPPs, luxury/resource/gpt and ROPs. So the war popup functions as a break-all-deals popup as well.

I think there is a quirk in the game program which allows MPPs to over-ride alliances, but it seems there shoud be an algorithm that says which takes precedence, alliance or MPP - maybe whichever came first ought to be the pecking order .... but at the moment I find this just weird .....

There is no such quirk, and a MPP never overrides an alliance. As soon as an alliance is declared, the civ they made the alliance against immediately looses any MPP and other deals with both of the two alliance partners. And it is impossible to make a MPP with a civ you're currently fighting.

Unless you mean that a MPP with civ A has with civ B overrides an alliance that civ A has with civ C against civ D? Assume you and Babylon have this alliance against Germany, and Babylon also has an MPP with Iriquois. If you attack the Iriquois, then Babylon's MPP will come into effect, and Babylon will have to declare war against you. Yes, this will happen - if you wanted to avoid it you had ton bribe Babylon to get an alliance against the Iriquois as well. I think this makes sense.

But you didn't write that Babylon and Iriquois had an MPP, but rather that they mad an alliance against you. This simply happened because Iriquois paid Babylon enough gold - something you should have done first if you wanted Babylon on your side against Iriquois as well as Germany.

 

[Aggie]

To add to TNO's excellent comments:

One MA is usually not enough to have a certain control of the events. My strategy usually is to get as much civs behind me as I can. Most of the time I don't have to pay too much to get the world join my fight. One tech or lux should do it... One or more civs may cancel this deal and make peace, but I never had the situation that those who did ganged up and declared war to me. Doens't say that this can't happen though...

 

[Globetrotter]

In my latest game, i had an alliance with Russia and China v/s France, and an MPP with both China and Russia. Then Russia decided to invade China, so i had to declare war to Russia.
Then, China declared war against me after 3 turns, as i signed a military embargo against it with Germany.

Bottom of the line, you really have to be careful about all the alliances and between other civs.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Nitpick: Italy didn't have so much a Military Alliance with Germany in WWI as Mutual Protection Pact; the Triple Alliance was defensive.

Three-way wars are the way to go, man! The only thing more fun is four-way, five-way, etc, ones.

 

[sealman]

Hope you learned your lesson. Never trust those Babylonians!

 

[earendil 1]

I was playing Phoenix's Biggest World War 2 Map Ever on regent, and I had signed mpps and military alliances with everybody against Germany. Then all of a sudden, the foreign advisor says that Greece has signed a peace treaty with Geramny, and in the midde of the turn Greece declared war on Germany again!

 

[sealman]

Originally posted by earendil
I was playing Phoenix's Biggest World War 2 Map Ever on regent, and I had signed mpps and military alliances with everybody against Germany. Then all of a sudden, the foreign advisor says that Greece has signed a peace treaty with Geramny, and in the midde of the turn Greece declared war on Germany again!

great! That means that they take a rep hit for breaking their peace treaty w/ Germany

 

[bonscott]

Originally posted by billindenver
Well, Italy had military alliances with Germany in both WWI and WWII, and later changed sides in both wars and fought against Germany.

Same thing happened to me a couple games ago. France sneak attacked me, so I enlisted the rest of the world in MA's. I decided to nuke France for attacking me like that, but as soon as I nuked them, Persia backed out of the alliance and declared war on me. When I nuked Persia the following turn, Rome (also my MA partner) declared war on me. When I nuked Rome, England declared war on me.

Nuking anyone causes almost everyone else to declare war on you. I think it even says this in the manual.

 

[MOAB]

It happens, just kill them off. If they are stupid enough to declair war on an ally then they are too stupid to live.