Some generic biased points on balance, part 2

Edaka

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Jul 14, 2015
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1. Unhappiness from pillaged tiles
I like the fact that it exists, but at the same time it practically doesn't. I've seen only about a couple points of unhappiness in large cities with lots of pillaged tiles around (yeah, I know it sounds very subjective and not too much trustworthy, but I don't have the exact numbers). Does anybody else find this source of unhappiness too unsignificant to be relevant?

2. Terracotta army
The free units from building this wonder start with no exp or promotions even if the city that built it has related buildings (e.g. barracks, National Epic). This doesn't help the fact that the wonder itself is pretty mediocre, imo. I mean, if units gained through the conscription policy get exp from barracks, why should the Terracotta Army be left out?

3. The 'apmhibious' promotion
This one is a weirdo for me. The description states: '[...] grants a movement bonus when moving along rivers.' However, the bonus seems to be applied only when moving across rivers. See the screenshot below:
Spoiler :
939EE48AC648B55DF4884D284C576CF7EAC17F71


My warrior can cross the river to the south and still have movement points left over. Moreover, he can cross the river and move into rough terrain at the same time, still having movement points left over. This is normal, as we can see the movement bonus in effect.

However, the bonus actually only applies if you move across the river, but not if moving along it. As can be seen, the warrior can't even cross the hill to the east despite it being on a river tile (if I go on a hill, all movement points are expended) and can only go 2 tiles to the north-west-west (can't reach wheat), which isn't any faster than without the promotion.

4. Futurism
There are 2 things that bother me. Firstly, the effect doesn't scale neither with era, nor with game speed. Getting 250 tourism per GP in the information era isn't impressive when I have about the same empire-wide tourism output per turn at that point, anyway. Moreover, the internet is a major game-changing tech if you're going for a cultural victory, but it doesn't affect this tenet - in fact, it kind of eclipses it.

Secondly, the effect is applied when a GP is spawned, not used - this is very unusual for a 'per x extended' effect and the result is that you can't plan any strategy ahead with this tenet (e.g. save a couple of GPs, adopt the tenet and then expend them). I'm not promoting min-maxing strategies, but you can do that with ancient and medieval era policies, and the fact that you can't do that with this ideological tenet makes it weaker.

5. City-state gifts upon discovery
Again, two things, although the second one is more of a suggestion than a problem. Firstly, the gold that is gifted to you by city-states doesn't scale neither with era, nor with game speed (yeah, I think I've heard that somewhere before). I'm not really sure that they need to scale with era, although that would be a logical thing for them to do. I mean, gifting 30 gold in the ancient era is alright, but it's certainly not a respectable amount of money in the renaissance. However, I really don't see why these gifts shouldn't scale with game speed (if it's not hard-coded by Firaxis, of course).

Secondly, strangely enough, religious city-states currently are the only ones that also gift something else besides gold. In vanilla that gifted faith meant that you could secure a pantheon much earlier, if not right away, but it's not quite the case in CBP anymore. So, my suggestion: how about all city-state types gift their associated yields upon discovery (food from mercantile, science from militaristic CSs, etc.)? That would make exploration a little more meaningful (but not too imbalanced, hopefully).

Feel free to agree with me or prove me a noob - any discussion is appreciated (:.
 
1. Unhappiness from pillaged tiles
I like the fact that it exists, but at the same time it practically doesn't. I've seen only about a couple points of unhappiness in large cities with lots of pillaged tiles around (yeah, I know it sounds very subjective and not too much trustworthy, but I don't have the exact numbers). Does anybody else find this source of unhappiness too unsignificant to be relevant?
It is pretty significant, and it is easy to fall really far into negative happiness if you get stuck in a siege, unable to repair(the city starving doesn't really help either :D)

2. Terracotta army
The free units from building this wonder start with no exp or promotions even if the city that built it has related buildings (e.g. barracks, National Epic). This doesn't help the fact that the wonder itself is pretty mediocre, imo. I mean, if units gained through the conscription policy get exp from barracks, why should the Terracotta Army be left out?
I really don't like this wonder at all, honestly.

3. The 'apmhibious' promotion
This one is a weirdo for me. The description states: '[...] grants a movement bonus when moving along rivers.' However, the bonus seems to be applied only when moving across rivers. See the screenshot below:
Spoiler :
939EE48AC648B55DF4884D284C576CF7EAC17F71


My warrior can cross the river to the south and still have movement points left over. Moreover, he can cross the river and move into rough terrain at the same time, still having movement points left over. This is normal, as we can see the movement bonus in effect.

However, the bonus actually only applies if you move across the river, but not if moving along it. As can be seen, the warrior can't even cross the hill to the east despite it being on a river tile (if I go on a hill, all movement points are expended) and can only go 2 tiles to the north-west-west (can't reach wheat), which isn't any faster than without the promotion.
Yeah, this is how that works, pretty weird actually but whatever.

4. Futurism
There are 2 things that bother me. Firstly, the effect doesn't scale neither with era, nor with game speed. Getting 250 tourism per GP in the information era isn't impressive when I have about the same empire-wide tourism output per turn at that point, anyway. Moreover, the internet is a major game-changing tech if you're going for a cultural victory, but it doesn't affect this tenet - in fact, it kind of eclipses it.

Secondly, the effect is applied when a GP is spawned, not used - this is very unusual for a 'per x extended' effect and the result is that you can't plan any strategy ahead with this tenet (e.g. save a couple of GPs, adopt the tenet and then expend them). I'm not promoting min-maxing strategies, but you can do that with ancient and medieval era policies, and the fact that you can't do that with this ideological tenet makes it weaker.
Not a huge fan either but it is a lot more powerful than it used to be :D

5. City-state gifts upon discovery
Again, two things, although the second one is more of a suggestion than a problem. Firstly, the gold that is gifted to you by city-states doesn't scale neither with era, nor with game speed (yeah, I think I've heard that somewhere before). I'm not really sure that they need to scale with era, although that would be a logical thing for them to do. I mean, gifting 30 gold in the ancient era is alright, but it's certainly not a respectable amount of money in the renaissance. However, I really don't see why these gifts shouldn't scale with game speed (if it's not hard-coded by Firaxis, of course).
I think scaling with gamespeed is fine, scaling with era however feels kinda silly. Exploring early should be rewarded (I mean that's probably why the gift exists in the first place).

Secondly, strangely enough, religious city-states currently are the only ones that also gift something else besides gold. In vanilla that gifted faith meant that you could secure a pantheon much earlier, if not right away, but it's not quite the case in CBP anymore. So, my suggestion: how about all city-state types gift their associated yields upon discovery (food from mercantile, science from militaristic CSs, etc.)? That would make exploration a little more meaningful (but not too imbalanced, hopefully).

Feel free to agree with me or prove me a noob - any discussion is appreciated (:.
Agreed, it feels weird that religious city-states are straight up better.
 
City state bonuses on discovery inspires me at least 2 things :
  • As a lot are coastal, it's a HUGE bonus to Carthage and Polynesia, perhaps it's too much
  • It's a random part concerning pantheon creation and as they are limited it transform this in a lottery depending of your starting area
 
You can accomplish having Terracotta give you the XP based off of how many buildings have row.Experience > 0 in said City that built Wonder. See LeeS Lua code for the Terracotta Army. I think it would be a nice addition and shore up its weaknesses.

I think it would be more interesting to have Terracotta Army give you 6 elite units from the Classical era (the best type of each unitclass) instead of copies of what you built.
 
It is pretty significant, and it is easy to fall really far into negative happiness if you get stuck in a siege, unable to repair(the city starving doesn't really help either )

I've yet to happen to be in a situation where pillaged tiles make me fall really far into red. I mean, it's not like it's an empire-wide source - only those cities that are on the frontline are exposed to it, and even there I've seen 3 points of unhappiness at most with the majority of tile improvements burned down. Besides, unlike with some other sources of unhappiness (ahem, crime) you can actually battle this one effectively - all it takes is to repair those tile improvements, which shouldn't be impossible given a little time.

I really don't like this wonder at all, honestly.

Well, I forgot to point out another thing about it - I never know how much culture it gives upon building. It states the fact, but not the amount. There is no popup like with the liberty tree's culture and food per building, for example. How much lump culture does it give? Does it scale with game speed (yeah, it's that again, sorry)? The same thing concerns me in regard to circuses.

Yeah, this is how that works, pretty weird actually but whatever.

Then the description probably should be changed to reflect the mechanic more precisely.

City state bonuses on discovery inspires me at least 2 things :

As a lot are coastal, it's a HUGE bonus to Carthage and Polynesia, perhaps it's too much
It's a random part concerning pantheon creation and as they are limited it transform this in a lottery depending of your starting area

The former really depends on the map type. I personally play on a modified version of Continets Plus - the vanilla script did place all the CSs on islands and coast, but it's simple to edit it so that there's a healthy mix of costal and non-coastal CSs. Don't know how Communitas handles CS placement, though.

And yes, luck would play a large part in this mechanic, but it already is doing so with religious CSs, and I wouldn't call those faith gifts game changing.
 
Bah, forgot to mention something in the OP:
Trading WC votes for sanctions
The whole of the text for sanction resolutions doesn't fit into the trade window, so it's impossible to distinguish more than two or three such proposals. All of them show as 'Sanction a Civilisation: ...'. I couldn't figure out whether I was bribing somebody to vote against sanctions on me or Pocatello the other day. (Not really a balance thing, though (: .)
I think it would be more interesting to have Terracotta Army give you 6 elite units from the Classical era (the best type of each unitclass) instead of copies of what you built.
That would definitely be very powerful - maybe even too powerful. That would also mean going even deeper down into negative gpt than usually by building this wonder. Maybe it could actually make some units maintenance-free? There aren't a lot of instances of that effect taking place in the game, so TA could use the mechanic while being pretty unique and actually useful.
 
It could give you 6 of a specific unit, maybe a unique spearman with some cool unique abilities? If the unit was cool enough it wouldn't matter that it starts without experience.

If making a unique unit is way too annoying it could add normal spears with a unique promotion instead I guess, but that sounds boring :D
 
It could give you 6 of a specific unit, maybe a unique spearman with some cool unique abilities? If the unit was cool enough it wouldn't matter that it starts without experience.

If making a unique unit is way too annoying it could add normal spears with a unique promotion instead I guess, but that sounds boring :D

Way easier for me to just have the units get xp from the city. 1 line of code versus 100s of lines.

G
 
Way easier for me to just have the units get xp from the city. 1 line of code versus 100s of lines.

Well, the wonder would still be boring :D
Also gaining a specific number of units feels more balanced than what it does now.
I mean as it is now it feels punishing building it too early, because you haven't had a chance to stack up the required unit-types.
It feels sorta like if the machu picchu only triggered its effect off mountains that were in your territory when you finished the building,
 
Well, the wonder would still be boring :D
Also gaining a specific number of units feels more balanced than what it does now.
I mean as it is now it feels punishing building it too early, because you haven't had a chance to stack up the required unit-types.
It feels sorta like if the machu picchu only triggered its effect off mountains that were in your territory when you finished the building,

Yeah...I'm not going to rewrite the terracotta code. It's clunky and awful, no thanks. It is a situational wonder, but that's okay.

Edit: also, your definition of the word 'boring' is very loose.

G
 
Just add a nuke explosion effect upon completing Terracotta and it won't be boring anymore.
 
Just add a nuke explosion effect upon completing Terracotta and it won't be boring anymore.

I'll have the wonder completion music play Darude's Sandstorm as well. :)

Overall, Edaka, I agree with all but your first point (pillaging can get nasty, esp. late-game).

G
 
I actually like the teracotta army as it is. I like the micro-management involved in getting a wide variety of units out to benefit from it. It would be better with the promotions however, so I'd love to see that change.
 
I agree with all of Edakas points.
As for Terracotta army, the idea of giving a fixed amount of units sounds very good to me.
Those could be special units. A nice opportunity to use some art from removed UUs.
 
I'll have the wonder completion music play Darude's Sandstorm as well. :)

G

Oh boy, I think I'd be genuinely interested in looking into a mod that actually does that, along with the nuke animation.
 
If it bores me, it is boring. Defined.

Just add a nuke explosion effect upon completing Terracotta and it won't be boring anymore.

Almost spitted coffee on my monitor :D

Secondly, strangely enough, religious city-states currently are the only ones that also gift something else besides gold. In vanilla that gifted faith meant that you could secure a pantheon much earlier, if not right away, but it's not quite the case in CBP anymore. So, my suggestion: how about all city-state types gift their associated yields upon discovery (food from mercantile, science from militaristic CSs, etc.)? That would make exploration a little more meaningful (but not too imbalanced, hopefully)

Agreed! I'm definitely into this change.
 
How about this:

Upon creation of the Terracota army, a loud metal music starts playing, and a chinese Dragon appears above the wonder, giving +10 Awesomeness each turn. When your civilization reaches 200 Awesomeness, your leader becomes Super Saiyan and destroys all the others in a fully animated 12 episode martial arts tournament to the death, granting you the unique Epic Win victory. Also, Sid Meyer personally travels to your house for tea.

This should be easy to do, right Gazebo?
 
How about this:

Upon creation of the Terracota army, a loud metal music starts playing, and a chinese Dragon appears above the wonder, giving +10 Awesomeness each turn. When your civilization reaches 200 Awesomeness, your leader becomes Super Saiyan and destroys all the others in a fully animated 12 episode martial arts tournament to the death, granting you the unique Epic Win victory. Also, Sid Meyer personally travels to your house for tea.

This should be easy to do, right Gazebo?

It would cost over 9000 production to build right???
 
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