Some minor AND Misses (IMHO)

[Camarada78]

First: this is - by far - the best strategic game/mod of all time. If i could i would pay several rounds of beer to the developers on the nearest bar.

But, a game this complex and grandeur, could not miss some points and i think think some misses are kind important to be left behind in next updates:

1. Slavery is too simplified

- There were other forms of compulsory labor analog to slavery, like compulsory state labour, debt slavery and war-slavery. All points missed.

- The White Man's Civilizatory Mission was a fundamental part of modern slavery and one of the pillars of wealth accumulation needed for the industrial revolution. A Project or Wonder in that feeling "Civilizatory Mission".

- There is no Abolitionist unit that can easily bring chaos to Civs with slavery civic on. For example, The Achaemenid Empire (persian) banned slavery for it was forbidden to Zoroastrism.

- Too few slavery buildings. Like "Slave Field" (+1 hammer, -1health, -1 happiness per farm, +1 gold with Cotton); or Slave Ship (a simple ship that can "walk into" tribal villages in coastal areas, and when attacking other ships can get a worker as result).

- Slavocracy is a tech that could advance more details into Slavery.

I know slavery would be (again) too powerful and AI would be forever in that civic, but we could think in better ways to nerf it instead of making it too unreal. In fact from 6000BC to 1700AC, Slavery was indeed a very common form of economic system. If AI stays with that for this long it would not be so unreal.

2. There is no Subsistance economy civic.

The most common forms of economic organization of early agricultural societies. *I've seen a prototype mod for that, but i think it is not for AND.

3. There is no Single Party Republic in government civics.

One of the most common forms of modern states to be organized. Brazil, China, Russia, Germany, Spain, Portugal and many other countries had followed that kind of rule for some time.

4. Misses in Buildings:

Breakwater is an important building missing to coastal cities, every important costal city in history had that.

And also, Work Boats should also be able to construct Coastal Fort, making your water units more powerful against enemies. Again, most coastal cities were fortified, protected against sea invaders.

Brewery should not be -1 Health. In fact, there are serious studies pointing that the huge number of breweries in Europe was due to the fact that most water of cities were contaminated, very filthy, hence the need to ferment and process the water into low-alcohol beer, killing most of the bacteria. It should be -1 Hammer, +1 Health, +1 happiness, and it should give -2 Hammers if you have a Temple in your city.

5. Resources

- Potato should give an additional food. It was - with corn - the pillar of the population boom in Europe after the discovery.


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This is my small contribution to this awesome game. Hope you like.

 

[Mouthwash]

First: this is - by far - the best strategic game/mod of all time. If i could i would pay several rounds of beer to the developers on the nearest bar.

I am not so sure it's the "best strategy game ever". Nothing is simplified for the gameplay, every little possible consequence of a civic or building is in there. I understand Slavery can let you sacrifice population to finish production in a city, but I don't understand +16% maintenance in all colonies, 4% faster production of temple, + 1 unhealthiness in all cities, + one food on farms, farms at high altitudes, windmills + one gold on mines, windmills, modern mine, big windmills, mechanized mines, +33% faster production of national wonders (of which there are about a hundred too many), all units gain +1 xp, + 1 happiness from barracks, granary, cathedral, farms, priests, + 1 unhappiness from merchants, non-state religions, blah blah blah....

What I'm trying to say is, it's been too hard trying to even comprehend these changes (the real mind**** is the combined effects of all the civics you have running) to even try for an actual strategy. So if you have strategies that make sense, and are straightforward and effective, enlighten me please.

 

[Camarada78]

Strategies depends on the type of game you are running.

What difficult level do you play?

Do you play with raging barbarians? Agressive AI? Revolutions?


***

This game is pure strategy, there is nothing straight-forward, no linear victory. I usually appear to be "losing" (point count) to AI, but it might be temporary until an important war starts or a decisive tech or wonder is achieved.

I've played tons of games and strategies are not usually the same.

But the most decisive aspect of this game is money production. After Public Works tech you should put lots of cottages around your towns.

Think like this: MONEY > PRODUCTION > WAR

Rise money, to allow more production to finance your war.

 

[Sgtslick]

I am not so sure it's the "best strategy game ever". Nothing is simplified for the gameplay, every little possible consequence of a civic or building is in there. I understand Slavery can let you sacrifice population to finish production in a city, but I don't understand +16% maintenance in all colonies, 4% faster production of temple, + 1 unhealthiness in all cities, + one food on farms, farms at high altitudes, windmills + one gold on mines, windmills, modern mine, big windmills, mechanized mines, +33% faster production of national wonders (of which there are about a hundred too many), all units gain +1 xp, + 1 happiness from barracks, granary, cathedral, farms, priests, + 1 unhappiness from merchants, non-state religions, blah blah blah....

What I'm trying to say is, it's been too hard trying to even comprehend these changes (the real mind**** is the combined effects of all the civics you have running) to even try for an actual strategy. So if you have strategies that make sense, and are straightforward and effective, enlighten me please.

obviously you've never played this mod or have a clue wtf your talking about so just stfu

 

[Mouthwash]

obviously you've never played this mod or have a clue wtf your talking about so just stfu

I have played this mod a few times. I'm not going to call you a troll, I will just point out that your comment did not at all address my points and was quite rude as well.

 

[Sgtslick]

Nothing is simplified for the gameplay, every little possible consequence of a civic or building is in there. I understand Slavery can let you sacrifice population to finish production in a city, but I don't understand +16% maintenance in all colonies, 4% faster production of temple, + 1 unhealthiness in all cities, + one food on farms, farms at high altitudes, windmills + one gold on mines, windmills, modern mine, big windmills, mechanized mines, +33% faster production of national wonders (of which there are about a hundred too many), all units gain +1 xp, + 1 happiness from barracks, granary, cathedral, farms, priests, + 1 unhappiness from merchants, non-state religions, blah blah blah...

^ this is all nonsense
Slavery can let you sacrifice population to finish production in a city (wrong)
+16% maintenance in all colonies (made up)
4% faster production of temple (made up)
farms at high altitudes (made up)
windmills + one gold on mines (wrong)
modern mine (yes this exists but its very simple.. u need a Modern tech to get your modern mines and it upgrades by itself just like how a cottage becomes a town.
big windmills (made up)
mechanized mines (not sure.. maybe future era)
+33% faster production of national wonders (made up)
of which there are about a hundred too many ( their aren't anywhere near 100 in the game)
I won't go on coz this is evidence enough that you clearly don't know wtf your on about and are just ranting like a tool.

Sure maybe the civics aren't as ridiculously simple as vanilla bts - all it is though is instead of 2 factors its 2 or 3 AND some very simple +1 happy or -2 happy or -5% production etc.. nothing complicated about it at all.

 

[Mouthwash]

Slavery can let you sacrifice population to finish production in a city (wrong)

Was referring to Bts here.

+16% maintenance in all colonies (made up)
4% faster production of temple (made up)
farms at high altitudes (made up)
windmills + one gold on mines (wrong)
modern mine (yes this exists but its very simple.. u need a Modern tech to get your modern mines and it upgrades by itself just like how a cottage becomes a town.
big windmills (made up)
mechanized mines (not sure.. maybe future era)
+33% faster production of national wonders (made up)
of which there are about a hundred too many ( their aren't anywhere near 100 in the game)
I won't go on coz this is evidence enough that you clearly don't know wtf your on about and are just ranting like a tool.

Sure maybe the civics aren't as ridiculously simple as vanilla bts - all it is though is instead of 2 factors its 2 or 3 AND some very simple +1 happy or -2 happy or -5% production etc.. nothing complicated about it at all.

Of COURSE they're made up. I simply created these effects to demonstrate how ridiculous and overcomplicated the civic system was. And complicated civics are fine as long as they improve gameplay.

The civics in AND seem to be oriented for total realism rather than gameplay. The vanilla civics may have been too simple, but at least you could use them strategically (beeline Priesthood, Oracle CoL, do GP economy, etc). In AND there are only very simple strategies- such as Intolerant is good for army build ups, Despotism is better than Tribalism or that Atheism is good for science. And it's not only the civics, but also the tech tree, the national wonders, everything.

Than I see this guy claiming this mod is the "greatest strategic mod of all time," yet criticizing it for being not realistic enough! Maybe I am missing something, which is why I posted my comment in the first place. I didn't mean for it to come off as ranting, I just wanted to understand the "strategies" for this mod.

 

[Sgtslick]

if you want to understand the strategies for this mod and its civics then i suggest playing it. I don't understand how making up all those effects demonstrates anything. The civics system does improve gameplay and it is not overcomplicated.

 

[Camarada78]

Well, you clearly did not play this game to enjoy all the possible strategies.

For example:

If you invade too much enemy cities (playing as an agressive expansionist) you might use Despotism up late in the game. Despotism is a lame civic for late games, but it gives a +1 happiness for each military unit in a city, a thing that could be very valuable in a conquered city. And pretty realistic: through excessive military presence you "soften" the inhabitants until your order is fully built.

Founding religion (or many religions) is a key element of strategy in this game. If you are of the same religion of a too powerful enemy, you can concentrate in trying to get his Holy City. It will late be very precious.

Some strategies:

Normally i would take the first two Great Person (usually Great Prophets) and research techs with them.

But in early games +2 hammer and +5 gold is way better than a Golden Age or a Tech. And you might wanna save your Golde Age for 0-1000AC, it will be much better then.

Great Artists is another example, i rarely use them for tech or culture in a city. Either i use them to fund a corporation/guild/wonder or take them to one city with lots of enemy cities around and to rise that city culture, swallowing enemy territory without the need for war.... Doing that in a conquered city is a big bonus!

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Depending on your level of difficult you can play an early expansionist, using the benefits of your leader (Genghis Khan is excellent for that). But from Emperor and above they start with lots of archers, that need at least 3 spearman each to be defeated (3 archers would need 9-10 spearman to be certain)... and if its a mountain or walled city... well double that.

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Resources

Stone is a fundamental one, you might start an early war or conquering a barbarian city, just to take that as soon as possible.

If you do not have Stone and you are playing in Emperor (or even in Monarch), you should protect yourself with lots of archers and get axeman as soon as possible.

So Copper would be the second fundamental resource, but you can also do that with Obsidian (that is a lot easier to find).

Since you got axeman there are lots of military options for you since you only have to worry about light swordman for too many turns.

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Another fundamental part of this game: get in contact with as many rival civs as possible, as soon as possible.

If i have too few neighbours i'm in trouble.

So, if you're playing with raging barbarians, to advance by land might be hard, get a coastal city as soon as possible to discover as many civs as you can using a ship.

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Early game is usually the most important stages of the game, but there are wars that can change your future, from a mediocre civ to a leading one. If doing wars, try to do annihilation wars, by conquering all enemy cities. Take vassal states only if it will be impossible (in near future) to conquer them all.

***

This is game of patience. It is modern chess.


The great thing about AND is that there is lots of things related to the real study of geopolitics, strategic studies and international relations. If you take some main theories of Strategic Studies and apply to AND, you might get lots of good results, i usually follow this:

MONEY > PRODUCTION > MILITARY

Get money to fund production to allow military expansion. Repeat cycle.

No other game has that similar relation with real life studies and history.