Something I miss from SMAC and MOO2

[j_buckingham80]

I'm really happy with a lot of things in Civ4, the game overall is a lot of fun to play. I just wish, there could be about oh say 3 differences and the game would be perfect.

One thing, at least if I remember correctly, from SMAC was that as you were getting close to wiping someone out, you could offer to allow them to continue as like a subservient state. I loved that! It's too bad that Civ 4 didn't implement something similar. Vassalages have existed for ages, why shouldn't I be able to do the same.

Also, it seems to me, that the computer is too willing to die without giving up it's tech. This sort of makes sense, you'll probably just kill them anyways, but there has to be a way to force it out of them, If I'm taking over half their nation, I've gotten to be learning something along the way.

That's the one thing I really miss from MOO2, I loved taking over an enemy planet, and having the military guy standing at a computer console with secrets that we had learned in the invasion. There should be something similar for cIV. Oh well, overall the game is great, but when you're behind in tech but ahead in military the game makes it a bear to catch up. Especially when you're getting close to the space race this is problematic.

Lastly, why did they get rid of tech stealing (I think, if not please inform me). When did espionage get so ... low level. Tech espionage has been key since the beginning of city states, to get rid of it was just silly. I must say I always loved the spontaneous appearance of the spy getting tech in MOO2 as well. Those were two things (of many) MOO2 did really well.

 

[Bard]

Sorry... but what is SMAC and MOO2?

But whatever they are, I totally agree with you... especially about subservient state thing.

 

[homeyg]

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri and Master of Orion 2.

 

[Chaos_BF1942]

I loved doing that in SMAC, you may be able to mod it in. Like having them sign a Permanent Alliace with you.

 

[calyth]

Also, it seems to me, that the computer is too willing to die without giving up it's tech. This sort of makes sense, you'll probably just kill them anyways, but there has to be a way to force it out of them, If I'm taking over half their nation, I've gotten to be learning something along the way.

Yeah, I find that annoying too. I could be on the verge of finishing their civilization forever, and they wouldn't give up the tech. In Civ 3 I find it hilarious that Egypt kept tresspassing my country, and I kept denying her until she declares war, then I captures her city with a great library and I end up learning everything that she had. At one point I had demanded tech for peace, and she denies it. After capturing the great library, there was little need to leave her around.

 

[widdowmaker]

AI should worry more about its survival.


if i had a Stack of Doom at the gates of their capital, and i demand one tech for peace, AFTER i dismantled their entire empire, and they say no. How does that mean they get to survive?

 

[Ray Patterson]

I loved doing that in SMAC, you may be able to mod it in. Like having them sign a Permanent Alliace with you.

And they would vote for you for Supreme Leader... actually better than conquering them if it was Pravin Lal (who wasn't my favorite pick for diplomatic victory, Deirdre ruled that big time for some reason). Yes, SMAC, that was pure gold (too bad you couldn't LAN with one CD and there was no hotseat)

 

[Kissamies]

AI should worry more about its survival.


if i had a Stack of Doom at the gates of their capital, and i demand one tech for peace, AFTER i dismantled their entire empire, and they say no. How does that mean they get to survive?

Perhaps they are being spiteful. That would be quite human behavior. Trying to make sure that some other AI wins, not you. In MOO2, the AI players sometimes surrendered the remnants of their empires to someone they hated the least when the situation was hopeless for them.

The ability to make the beaten enemy submit like in SMAC would be cool. Like Permanent Alliance, but the conqueror also gets all the military units the state has or produces later, perhaps.

The MOO1/2 style tech screen might be cool, but really doesn't fit modern Civ style. IIRC Civ 1 had one, though. Discussion about tech steal here.

 

[Tavenier]

I am glad that they have taking out the free techs given to conquerers. I have often lost a small border city and seeing the enemy get gunpowder from it. They could put it in the game again, but it has to be a chance of getting a tech. A small chance of getting a tech when you conquer a city. Larger cities giving a larger chance of getting one.

I too loved it in SMAC when you were beating a civ you could get an offer of total surrender. Now it is silly when you captured 2/3 of a nation they still give threats to you. Or the nation must be Iraq with Al Shariff as leader!
I do understand why it is not in this game. Say I am France in the middle ages and am beating up Spain. Isabella offers a total surrender and will become a satallite of France. So far so good. But in Civ-terms this means that Spain will be a French satallite forever. So from the middle ages up to the modern era. Not very realistic. So there must be some other way to do it. Maybe a vassalage for 20, 30 or 40 turns. In that time paying a quarter of their income and tech research. Maybe after that period they will still be allies, but not paying anything. And giving the option to cancel it (with a high penalty to rep?).

 

[jeremiahrounds]

yeah im glad its gone too. it was way overpowered.

However MoO2 is my pick for greatest civilization type game ever so it didnt bug me that much. If MoO4 were MoO2 with better graphics i think it would sale~

I think the fraxis peeps might have learned an important lesson from MoO2 and MoO3. Dont fall to far from the tree you dont know what the thread you pull on might unravel.

I still wait for a fun successor of MoO2 and even though MoO3 was a flop i hope to see a MoO4 =/

 

[GoRy]

Moo2 is still my favorite game of all time and I *STILL* have it installed.

Pity about Moo3. Also, you gotta remember, Moo3 was made by Qs not firaxis. You really can't compare the tech trees in Civ and moo3 at all. The Moo3 tech tree was a horrible convoluted overcomplicated piece of dung. Much like a lot of the rest of the game (Like those stupid planet specification chart things. I can't remember what they're called and I even wrote an article on moo3.at about them).

I'd love to see a more incremental approach to research. Instead of picking a research, plow money into different areas of research in order to open the technologies themselves, allowing you to perhaps concentrate on civil technologies or war for instance. But meh, probably never see it done right.

Stealing tech from invasions would also be ace but not always viable.

"Sir, we just learnt from these heathens how to mount our warriors as Knights"
"Pray tell general, what animals are these soliders on?"

 

[R3dKnight]

Stealing tech from invasions would also be ace but not always viable.

"Sir, we just learnt from these heathens how to mount our warriors as Knights"
"Pray tell general, what animals are these soliders on?"

pure comedy

 

[Pratputajao]

Moo2 is still my favorite game of all time and I *STILL* have it installed.

You too? God I pray they take another shot at it and make a MoO 4, one that is much closer to 2. Also would love to see a Master of magic 2. I find it hard to believe we havent seen this yet?

And yes I totally agree with the OP. Though I didnt play SMAC much ( cant remember why now?) I think the suggestion from that game would be good in a modern Civ style game.

 

[Crispin]

Aaaah I love moo2 too What a great game, was excited when moo3 came, but it was a disapointment, but half a year ago I gave it a real try and it turned out to be ok. About that vassalage thing, it sounds AWESOME. That would be so cool, when I play civ, I actually HATE to wipe out a team, specially in the beggining, I usually wait around 1900 before I really get in the war mood. And I really dont want anyone to disappear :\

 

[Argh]

I'm currently lost in a daydream where every great element from ALL the civ-type games are combined into a new civ-type game. (I shall call it Colonization II for now..).

Maybe a beaten enemy who agrees to become a vassal can just have a random chance of regaining full independence, and that random chance increases with time. Other factors could affect the random independence roll, such as the strength of the controlling civ's economoy, military, culture compared to the world's averages.

Ahh, there are still so many great and HUGE features that can be added to the Civ Series....dreaming....

Anyway, the other thing I wanted to say, since there's a mini MOO2/3 hijack going on was this: MOO3 I understand was a huge dissapointement when released, but has it since been patched up to an acceptable standard?

 

[Superkrest]

like someone said above ...permanant vassalage would be too much...but that brings up the whole issue of uprising...it would be cool that if your vassal state started getting back on its feet..they could deny payment to you....and seperate..if you conqure X amount of cities in X amount of turns...the cities are returned to the country and they become your vassal again...of course you could declare yourself an occupier and permananty take them over..i dunno.its an idea

but you all are right...smac had some fabulous ideas...the game had its problems but the options were incredible...firaxis really messed up letting alot of the options from that game go by...especially with a decent AI

 

[Wodan]

SMAC was top in my book. About the ONLY thing about it I didn't like was that some of the projects were overpowered/broken.

Though, I never did MOO2 (thought about MOO3 but then read some reviews and came to my senses).

Somebody give me advice: Is it worth getting a copy of MOO2 from the $10 rack? After Civ IV slows down for me of course.

Wodan

 

[Superkrest]

yes its worth it....and also so is the alien crossfire expansion pack for smac....they tweeked some of the players..you get a good balanced game...especially if your a warmonger.

 

[Wodan]

yes its worth it....and also so is the alien crossfire expansion pack for smac....they tweeked some of the players..you get a good balanced game...especially if your a warmonger.

Thanks. I'll keep an eye out for MOO2.

Already have SMAC:AC. Though, it was the Mac version, and I no longer have a Mac. Probably just as well.

Wodan

 

[Pratputajao]

Somebody give me advice: Is it worth getting a copy of MOO2 from the $10 rack? After Civ IV slows down for me of course. Wodan

Yes, yes and yes! But ( very important to some, not me) be prepared for dated graphics. Though they are not really bad, just not up to todays standards.