Soren Johnson on Citizens and Specialists in Old World

[The_J]

Soren Johnson has released his latest blog post about the development of Old World. The link is here:
https://www.designer-notes.com/?p=1711
The most interesting part for me (besides the fact that temporarily Civ4 didn't have a city screen):

I used this opportunity to fix a couple other problems with the design. Players had complained that cities were too similar to each other, which was certainly a problem with yields coming less from the terrain itself, as with Civ. Thus, we attached four important city yields to each of the four core rural specialists – Farmers would produce Growth, Miners produce Training, Stonecutters produce Civics, and Woodcutters produce Science. (Cutting down trees produces Science because of, um, paper? Not all at because I had an extra yield in search of an extra specialist.) Now, cities would be differentiated by their specialists which were a result of their improvements which would largely be determined by their terrain, getting us back to how terrain leads to city specialization in Civ. It took some time to isolate the positive features of citizen placement and then port them back into Old World, but it’s nice to know that maybe citizens did serve a purpose back in 1991 after all.

I do think this is actually a nice solution, although I think the citizen screen itself isn't that dead yet, there could have been other solutions too.

 

[PiR]

I really enjoy that design.
For me optimizing citizens in Civ always meant a tedious work but necessary on certain difficulty to achieve certain goals. As I like to play wide this can quickly become boring. The priority of Civ4 between growth/produ/money/science/etc. was not that bad.

Civ4 didn't have a city screen

Well, I'm pretty sure it did have one (still does for those who still play it)? Or what do you mean?

there could have been other solutions too.

What are your ideas? Please share

 

[The_J]

Well, I'm pretty sure it did have one (still does for those who still play it)? Or what do you mean?

Sorry, I clarified: Temporarily.

What are your ideas? Please share

Ah.... not exactly clear thoughts.
So in Civ4, the cottages would improve other time and get better. You could tie this as well to the citizens working on a plot. In that way, you'd discourage frequent shifts and micromanaging. Putting a new person on a plot would have a more lasting impact. And maybe tied to improving ... improvements. Maybe also have additional resources. E.g. a mine/forgery on the first level only produces bronze, on the next level iron (not exactly accurate, but you get the idea).
But as said, this is semi-random only, and doesn't relate that much back to Soren's blog.

 

[PiR]

That's an interesting way to counter-balance frequent shifting indeed!
Then as Soren said, there is also the risk of inducing no shift at all and create a snowball effect. This would have to be capped maybe?

So in Civ4, the cottages would improve other time and get better.

Also the case in OW btw

 

[uhu]

the citizen screen itself isn't that dead yet, there could have been other solutions too.

What are your ideas? Please share

Sid Meier's Civilization IV: Colonization gave a great variation of the citizens vs. specialists / city differentiation / population migration - theme already expanded a bit by civ4.

(This was also the golden age of modding: The Authentic Colonization)

 

[The_J]

I never got into that one, so I can't comment .

 

[Dale]

I never got into that one, so I can't comment .

You disappoint me! Colonization was the second best game ever, after Imperialism 2.

 

[nolegskitten]

You disappoint me! Colonization was the second best game ever, after Imperialism 2.

We're talking colonization or Civ IV : Colonization here ?

And OK, I guess I need to put Imperialism 2 on my to do pile then ?

 

[PiR]

Sid Meier's Civilization IV: Colonization gave a great variation of the citizens vs. specialists / city differentiation / population migration - theme already expanded a bit by civ4.

Very true!

 

[The_J]

You disappoint me! Colonization was the second best game ever, after Imperialism 2.

I'm sorry .

 

[PiR]

We're talking colonization or Civ IV : Colonization here ?

Clearly there's a quiproquo.

Civ IV: Colonization can't be the second best game ever. I mean, I enjoyed a couple of plays, but that was it.

Dale had to be talking about the much older Colonization.

 

[Dale]

We're talking colonization or Civ IV : Colonization here ?

And OK, I guess I need to put Imperialism 2 on my to do pile then ?

I said "Colonization" not C4C.

Clearly there's a quiproquo.

Civ IV: Colonization can't be the second best game ever. I mean, I enjoyed a couple of plays, but that was it.

Dale had to be talking about the much older Colonization.

Yep, the old one. I did however fix C4C though. True story, the patch issued by Firaxis was the "PatchMod" I made with a couple minor code changes.

 

[nolegskitten]

I said "Colonization" not C4C.

I know I know, but as uhu was explicitely refering to C4C and your message came quickly after i wanted to lift the ambiguity.

Also, I never played the original colonization myself , I think it came out before I found out about video games. (Yeah I checked, 1994 was 3 years before I bought a PC at university). I kinda hoped against hope that my experience of C4C could possibly count. Oh Well, one more game I should try to finally experience ! Is there still some form of it that can be played today ?

Yep, the old one. I did however fix C4C though. True story, the patch issued by Firaxis was the "PatchMod" I made with a couple minor code changes.

I liked C4C but all in all I think I played 2 or 3 games then went back to Civ IV itself. I don't have very detailed memories of it as a consequence.
I thought I read at the time that it was a relatively faithful modern remake of the original game, I might very well be misremembering ? What are the main differences between the two ?

 

[Dale]

I know I know, but as uhu was explicitely refering to C4C and your message came quickly after i wanted to lift the ambiguity.

Also, I never played the original colonization myself , I think it came out before I found out about video games. (Yeah I checked, 1994 was 3 years before I bought a PC at university). I kinda hoped against hope that my experience of C4C could possibly count. Oh Well, one more game I should try to finally experience ! Is there still some form of it that can be played today ?



I liked C4C but all in all I think I played 2 or 3 games then went back to Civ IV itself. I don't have very detailed memories of it as a consequence.
I thought I read at the time that it was a relatively faithful modern remake of the original game, I might very well be misremembering ? What are the main differences between the two ?

Colonization: https://www.gog.com/game/sid_meiers_colonization
Imperialism 2: https://www.gog.com/game/imperialism_2_the_age_of_exploration

Do you mean this remake? (In French too lucky for you): https://colonizationrebuilto.monsite-orange.fr/index.html
Otherwise there's FreeCol (not 100% to the original though): http://www.freecol.org/

 

[nolegskitten]

Colonization: https://www.gog.com/game/sid_meiers_colonization
Imperialism 2: https://www.gog.com/game/imperialism_2_the_age_of_exploration
(...)

Thanks, I'll definitely play these two then.