Spain, UK, Gibraltar

[stormbind]

Link: Plight of Gibraltar

Actually, what I want to know is, what the EU thinks of it all. Spain used the EU as a platform to embarass the UK and that in turn resulted in negotiations over the issue explained in the above link.

So clearly Spain is anti-free choice, anti-Democracy. Is the EU the same way inclined?
Moderator Action: trollish thread title edited
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[h4ppy]

So where is the debate in this? It is obvious that they want to remain British and there is no reason that they should be forced into the Spanish empire.(nonempire nowadays but I can't find another synonym)

 

[stormbind]

But Spain still wants to rule them, and Spain used some treaty to harrass the UK (via the EU) and they are negotiating the demands of Spain!

You are right in that the issue looks like a closed case, but it aint!

 

[Achinz]

Because the issue is between the UK and Spain (being foreign affairs which is out of the ambit of Gibraltar), the pull is towards Spain ie its territorial imperative is stronger than any past colonial strategic and economic benefits for the UK. If the UK can give up Hong Kong, then I'd surmise it'd have no reason to keep Gibraltar's status quo, just as the people of Hong Kong had no say in the proposed handover to China (despite local demonstrations and vocal protests) with the matter decided at the international level by the two main players.

 

[Goober]

This issue should be up to the Gilbratians. They should have the final say, never mind what Spain/the UK want. I do not know enough to comment further, unfortunately . . .

 

[Sarevok]

that isnt a very good thing to do...

 

[pomsa]

Countries only like elections when they benefit themselves.

 

[Jorge]

Democracy?

Come on. You know there are hundreds of spanish people that work (have a job) in Gibraltar but as they are consider foreigners they can't settle there (they have to live in Spain and work in Gibraltar). That way is very easy to advocate democracy for the british, as only british can vote!

 

[Kinniken]

Originally posted by stormbind
Link: Plight of Gibraltar

Actually, what I want to know is, what the EU thinks of it all. Spain used the EU as a platform to embarass the UK and that in turn resulted in negotiations over the issue explained in the above link.

So clearly Spain is anti-free choice, anti-Democracy. Is the EU the same way inclined?

The only thing that the EU provides is a framework though which to conduct negotiations, if both parties so wishes. It has no position on the issue itself. Sorry, but you are going to find it quite hard to bring up a new case on how the Gibraltar issue, which is fundamentaly a bilateral issue, somehow shows once again that the EU is a dictatorship-in-waiting always siding against the UK And no, I do not believe you can argue that it's all Chirac's fault either. re-

BTW, as far as I am concerned what matter is the wish of Gibraltarians, and since they apparantely want to remain British, they should. If anyone is to blame here it is Aznar for trying to use the nationalism-rousing issue to win domestic political points. Which is quite hypocritical considering that Spain refuses to negotiate handing back its enclaves in Morocco...

 

[Free Enterprise]

Originally posted by Achinz
Because the issue is between the UK and Spain (being foreign affairs which is out of the ambit of Gibraltar),

Maybe that should be changed.

the pull is towards Spain ie its territorial imperative is stronger than any past colonial strategic and economic benefits for the UK. If the UK can give up Hong Kong, then I'd surmise it'd have no reason to keep Gibraltar's status quo, just as the people of Hong Kong had no say in the proposed handover to China (despite local demonstrations and vocal protests) with the matter decided at the international level by the two main players.

If the British could win a referendum and it still were handed to Spain, then this logic could be used to return many conquered territories back to the "original" owner. Probably the majority of major powers control land which was conquered by some other population.

 

[Stapel]

I couldn't care less. Let the Gibraltarins decide...

OTOH, if 1000 Dutchmen would settle a piece of beach in England and declare it Dutch, what would the British government do? Hold elections among these thousand people to see what nation they belong to?

 

[Shabbaman]

Maybe it's time the dutch renew their claim on Gibraltar.

 

[jpowers]

Originally posted by Shabbaman
Maybe it's time the dutch renew their claim on Gibraltar.

Oh, go for Manhattan while you're at it!

 

[Xen]

Let the Gibraltinians stay british! Spain can go... well, that would be trolling

 

[Stapel]

Originally posted by jpowers

Oh, go for Manhattan while you're at it!

And Delaware! Your first state belongs to us! Or did we conquer it on the Swedes?

 

[The Last Conformist]

The Dutch conquered Delaware (well, a territory vaguely coterminus with it) from Sweden, yes. If we only invalidate acquisition of territory by military force, the sequence ends there, but I'm sure many people today would hold that instead of simply putting down a settlement on a uninhabited piece of coast and proclaim the surrounding area a colony, the Swedish authorities should have explained the concept of land ownership to the local tribes, then told them that the place in question belonged to them, and finally asked if it was for sale.

 

[stormbind]

Originally posted by Jorge
Democracy?

Come on. You know there are hundreds of spanish people that work (have a job) in Gibraltar but as they are consider foreigners they can't settle there (they have to live in Spain and work in Gibraltar). That way is very easy to advocate democracy for the british, as only british can vote!

Keh? Where did this warped idea come from?

The British (sp. those living in the UK) have no vote on this matter. If we are democratic, we should allow the issue to be resolved by Gibraltans and they alone! So what are you talking about?

Spanish workers can immigrate if they want, nobody prevents Spanish people from moving to Britain or British territories!

I do not expect to have a vote in Spanish matters, and I think it absurd that you believe Spanish civilians should have a vote in Gibraltan matters!

 

[stormbind]

Originally posted by Shabbaman
Maybe it's time the dutch renew their claim on Gibraltar.

Fine, as long as you allow Gibraltans to make the choice!

 

[MrPresident]

Originally posted by Achinz
If the UK can give up Hong Kong, then I'd surmise it'd have no reason to keep Gibraltar's status quo, just as the people of Hong Kong had no say in the proposed handover to China

Hong Kong was leased to the British government for 99 years (or thereabouts) and so we had to hand it back after the lease expired.

Originally posted by Stapel
OTOH, if 1000 Dutchmen would settle a piece of beach in England and declare it Dutch, what would the British government do?

Fight them on the beaches and defend our island whatever the cost may be.

 

[Kinniken]

Originally posted by Achinz
If the UK can give up Hong Kong, then I'd surmise it'd have no reason to keep Gibraltar's status quo, just as the people of Hong Kong had no say in the proposed handover to China (despite local demonstrations and vocal protests) with the matter decided at the international level by the two main players.

Two big differences:
- China had the law on its side since HK was only leased for 99 years.
- Had the UK refused to hand over HK, China would probably have invaded. It's kind of hard to imagine Spain doing the same