Special Operations

[Hyronymus]

I'm actively using Undercover Agents in Civ3 to punish the enemy for having more strategic resources than me . In general I think Civ3 doesn't offer much options for Secret Operations though, a feature that could be very challenging. I also find it a hassle to start by espionage actions from the espionage screen. I would find it much easier if you could build spies (anyone remember the diplomats in Civ1?). Some examples of the usability of spy units:

• moving a spy into a city gives you a city report
• spies can destroy city structures without the need of a bombardment feature
• spies can attack (threatening) enemy units
• spies can start a revolt
• spies can steal technologies

If you want to decide what to order your spy to do you should just get a pop-up menu with all the options. I imagine you start the game with spies (after discovery of Code of Laws i.e.) and that you end with Delta Force units. Where spies cannot defend themselves a Delta Force unit will kill its attacker.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

NOOOOOO!!!! Don't bring back the MM headache of a spy unit-if you do it WELL, an abstract espionage model can do pretty much ALL the things you have asked for, WITHOUT the stress of moving individual units around!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Hyronymus]

Lol, but by using individual units you create an additional difficulty factor. Instead of simply deploying an action from your (inconvenient) espionage window you have to be more active to deploy a special ops. I won't deny that my suggestions can be addressed by expanding the current espionage options too though.

 

[rhialto]

I think it is good to have non-combat units that can interact with the other civs (ie diplomats, spies). This helps players visualise the idea that war isnt the only way to interact.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

I just feel that the added pain of MM extra non-combat units (even workers) is far greater than any reward of 'player visualisation'!
Seriously, guys, try 'Birth of the Federation' and 'Superpower 2', and see how their intelligence and/or Spec Ops systems work. They are really in-depth and immersive (not to mention effective), yet not tedious to manage or operate! Thats how I want to see espionage done in Civ4!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Hyronymus]

Did you have to mention 2 games I never played ? I guess I should take your word that effective espionage missions are possible from a special espionage screen.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Well, yeah, because my point was that you should try to get your hands on them-they prove my point about effective espionage in an abstract format!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

P.S: what is especially good about BotF is that the AI actually KNOWS how to use espionage effectively AND isn't omniscient-so if you frame the Klingons for Sabotage against the Romulans, then there is a VERY good chance that the Klingons are who they will suspect !

 

[Lockesdonkey]

Waitaminute, you're talking about framing ? That's a hella good idea! I seem to remember that you could do that in SMAC...But only for some ops. ARGH!

 

[rhialto]

Aussie Lurker,

I think you are confusing effective AI with effective espionage models here. Granted the ai used for civ2 spies sucked, but that doesn't mean the overall model wasn't sound. You found a game with an effective ai for espionage, but that doesn't mean the model is the best one for civ.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

You misunderstand me, Rhialto. Yes I found a good AI for effective use of Espionage, but I ALSO found an espionage system that doesn't require me going to a city, clicking 'SPY' on the build queue then, once built, labouriously moving it to an enemy city or unit then, once there, clicking on the espionage activity I wanted to perform ! To me that is just HUGE MM for too little gain! In BotF you had a system where you obtained 'Intelligence Points' from your manned intelligence structures, points which you then allocated-on a % basis-to certain acivities on certain empires. Once this was done, everything else was automatic-except that every now and again, if you got REALLY good at espionage, it would ask you what Empire you wished to implicate in your crime!! Although there is a certain degree of management involved here, it is only a fraction of that involved in a unit-based espionage system!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[GoodGame]

I think a useful addition would be to give some of the abstract Espionage missions a tactical use---such as against units, or the terrain modifiers.