Special Units

Status
Not open for further replies.
Yup, I am familiar with the basics of Heraldry but I had assumed a Knight could also have supporters, and I don't class Knights as nobility... perhaps "lesser nobility"... kind of borderline. The helm above the shield denotes specific rank, which is where I would put the emphasis.

Is the armigeous status extended to gentry also hereditory?

There have been cases in history where a distinction needed to be made between men born as gentlemen, and those who acquired the status through service to the crown or chivalry. The latter were not considered nobles but I think their arms can still be inherited, hence the question :)
 
Originally posted by stormbind
Yup, I am familiar with the basics of Heraldry but I had assumed a Knight could also have supporters, and I don't class Knights as nobility... perhaps "lesser nobility"... kind of borderline. The helm above the shield denotes specific rank, which is where I would put the emphasis.

Is the armigeous status extended to gentry also hereditory?

There have been cases in history where a distinction needed to be made between men born as gentlemen, and those who acquired the status through service to the crown or chivalry. The latter were not considered nobles but I think their arms can still be inherited, hence the question :)

In modern English heraldry (modern in this context meaning subsequent to the "visitations"), the use of supporters is strictly limited. The categories are:

(1) the royal family; peers; the eldest sons of peers; the younger sons of dukes and marquesses; a few commoners granted supporters by special warrant; some commoners whose ancestors had supporters before the restrictions came into effect. All these entitlements to supporters are hereditary.

(2) Knights of the Garter and Knights Grand Gross of the Bath. These supporters are personal, and are not inherited.

(3) Towns and corporate bodies.

So, in summary, a knight will only be entitled to supporters if his ancestors used them pre-visitation, or if he is a KG or GCB.

All armigerous status is hereditary. The full, undifferenced, arms descend to the eldest son; younger sons inherit the father's arms suitably differenced for cadency; if an armiger has no male issue, his daughters inherit his arms, which may then be marshalled with those of their husbands by quartering.

Your assumption is correct - so far as arms are concerned, it does not matter how they were obtained: they are heritable.

What is perhaps causing your confusion is that - unlike continental heraldry - English and Scottish heraldry is not a sole province of the titled nobility, so the distinction between noble and non-noble is one of detail, and not fundamental. Some English heraldic authorities take the view that to receive a grant of arms is to ennoble oneself - and some European sources refer to English esquires and knights as "untitled nobility", in much the same manner as the hidalgos of Spain were regarded.

Incidentally, you referred to helms - don't forget that the plain tilting helm facing to dexter is the signifier of an esquire.
 
Complete armourial achievements are all very interesting and no doubt a source of pride for their bearers when displayed in the company of peers, but I find myself torn on the issue of using any coat of arms.

If I understand correctly, the arms should be used each and every generation or they become obsolete. Leaving the option open to future generations seems to be the most supportive argument I can find.

What role do they have in todays society? A man can put whatever he likes on his letterhead. A signature is far more logical than the image in a wax seal. No man is picked out on todays battlefields and even if they were, the flag has replaced coloured shields and electronic signals have superceded the flag.

The role for which distinctive shields (and resulting arms) were intended is long gone and the excessive impaling and quatering that lesser nobles conducted in the hope of asserting their elite ancestory has resulted in a fair number of rediculously detailed shields that require a full page to describe in blazen.

In defence of their readoption, arms would certainly make a more attractive identifier than the dull number plate on cars :p

The only place where I have seen coats of arms have value is in family trees where they (ussually) give clear and efficient indication as to a person's identy or lineage.
 
I did a quick search and found this...
The components of this system, already weak, completely fell apart after the Glorious Revolution. In particular, Visitations stopped in 1688, and the Court of Chivalry fell in hibernation after 1737, to be revived only once in 1954.
I find this strange because the College of Heraldry in London is still going strong.
 
Originally posted by Illustrious
So, in summary, a knight will only be entitled to supporters if his ancestors used them pre-visitation, or if he is a KG or GCB.
What if the lineage goes through younger sons? If I understand rightly, women are denied supporters regardless of their lineage... which can't be right because it never stopped the Queen. Now I wonder why I said it! :D
 
Originally posted by stormbind
But Elizabeth united Scotland and England? Surely! Maybe they split up again afterwards, but they were united at that time - which is the earliest time I know of where the two countries were one. Or am I totally mistaken?

Just reading this very long thread, and I wanted to make a small comment

Elizabeths succesor was the king of Scotland, the son of Mary Stuart ( James I ?), so it was first under his rule that the two countries had the same ruler.

EDIT: That did not mean the two countries became one country, it was more like a dualmonarchy like the Habsburgs.
Plz feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I often am :crazyeye:
 
Originally posted by Sir Nukealot


Just reading this very long thread, and I wanted to make a small comment

Elizabeths succesor was the king of Scotland, the son of Mary Stuart ( James I ?), so it was first under his rule that the two countries had the same ruler.

EDIT: That did not mean the two countries became one country, it was more like a dualmonarchy like the Habsburgs.
Plz feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I often am :crazyeye:

I would hardly want to correct you on this, since I pointed out those very facts several pages ago!:D
 
Originally posted by stormbind
I did a quick search and found this...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The components of this system, already weak, completely fell apart after the Glorious Revolution. In particular, Visitations stopped in 1688, and the Court of Chivalry fell in hibernation after 1737, to be revived only once in 1954.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I find this strange because the College of Heraldry in London is still going strong.

No contradiction at all, because the three things (visitations, Court and College) did - and do - very different things.

The main purpose of Visitations was to establish who if anyone had established rights of arms through usage, and to record that right. By 1688 this process had been pretty much completed - any subsequent claims to "right of user" could be more economically handled via the Court of Chivalry.

Now as to the Court itself, it had (and in theory still has) two functions. The first, as with visitations, is to adjudicate on claims of user. The second is to adjudicate between rival claims - often within cadet branches of the same family - to particular arms. The classic case is the Scrope/Grosvenor "bend or" case.

As an "extraordinary" court, it has only ever sat when it had cases to hear. Between 1737 and 1954 nobody brought any cases, that's all.

However, the function of Herald's College is very different from either visitations or the Court. Its primary formal role is to expedite applications for fresh grants of arms (both visitations and the Court related solely to existing arms).

Its secondary formal role is to act as liaison and arbitrator in cases where judgement by the Court of Chivalry might otherwise prove necessary. In this respect it has largely eliminated the need for the Court.

Its third - and nowadays most time-consuming - role is to act as a genealogical consultancy.

It has every incentive to be alive and kicking.

Can't understand why you think it strange.....?:)
 
Originally posted by stormbind
What if the lineage goes through younger sons? If I understand rightly, women are denied supporters regardless of their lineage... which can't be right because it never stopped the Queen. Now I wonder why I said it! :D

You are all at sea here, I'm afraid.

First: younger sons - they do not inherit their father's achievement, merely the shield arms suitably differenced for cadency. So the issue of a cadet branch inheriting supporters is an impossibility.

Second: women - a peeress in her own right is fully entitled to supporters. An heraldic heiress inherits her father's shield arms for life, but unless she marries an armiger the arms will not descend any further. An heiress who is not a peeress in her own right (eg the second daughter) will no more inherit the supporters than would a second son.

Third: the Queen - her arms are not personal arms, they are Arms of State. Supporters are always available for Arms of State, regardless of the gender of their holder.

One issue you haven't mentioned - life peers. A life peer is entitled to supporters, but his descendants will not inherit them - merely his shield arms.
 
Originally posted by Illustrious


I would hardly want to correct you on this, since I pointed out those very facts several pages ago!:D

Oops my mistake, I was at work and I didn't have time to read all the messages. :(
 
I thought it was strange because it sounded to me as though the visitations were a policing arm of the College... and what authority does any body have without police to uphold the rules? As you pointed out, there's the court which has the power end disputes between parties but I don't see how this stops totally bogus claims which don't step on the toes of a genuine armiger.

I presume the crest follows the same rule as supporters. That would be a shame :p

Would it be right to say that the "eldest son and of that ilk", actually means the "heir" as stated in the last will and testament which could be an outsider.
 
Originally posted by stormbind I thought it was strange because it sounded to me as though the visitations were a policing arm of the College... and what authority does any body have without police to uphold the rules? As you pointed out, there's the court which has the power end disputes between parties but I don't see how this stops totally bogus claims which don't step on the toes of a genuine armiger.
The answer there is that if no genuine armiger has his toes stepped on, there is no problem - heraldic law is closer to civil law than to criminal law (in a way, it's closest to intellectual property law), and therefore unless someone's rights are being infringed there is no need for judicial action.

In England, you have a perfect right to use bogus arms, as long as
  1. they aren't somebody's real, registered arms (which would infringe the rights of the genuine armiger);
  2. you don't make a false claim that they are registered with the College (which would infringe the rights of the College and, indirectly, the Crown);
  3. you don't use them for fraudulent gain (which would infringe the rights of your victims).
    [/list=1]

    I presume the crest follows the same rule as supporters. That would be a shame :p
    No, the crest is separate. Any armiger is entitled to a crest, and it will descend in the normal manner, whether the bearer is a peer or a commoner.

    Incidentally, I take it here you are referring to the armorial crest as borne atop the helm. Sometimes people use the word loosely to refer to what strictly is a badge.

    Would it be right to say that the "eldest son and of that ilk", actually means the "heir" as stated in the last will and testament which could be an outsider.
    Not unless there was a formal legal adoption, no. "Eldest son" means what it says, and in particular means legitimate son.

    As to "of that ilk", it's actually quite loose to use it in a phrase such as you quoted; since "ilk" simply means "same", it is most normally and most properly used in clan designations, where it indicates that the clan name is the same as the family name. Thus "Cameron of that ilk" means "Cameron of clan Cameron". The phrase you quoted actually doesn't contain anything to which ilk can properly refer, so it is necessary to interpolate something from the context - so we can take the phrase as meaning "eldest son and of the same [family, name, bloodline etc]".
 
As far as America not having a unique culture (stemming from earlier posts), having been to England (from which the strongest trace of our culture comes), and Canada (whose culture is most nearly ares), there are plenty subtle differences. From a weapons standpoint, the American-British weaponry partnership is incredible. Britain adds out of proportion to their size additions, but most is still American.
As for fighters, I recall hearing in years past on international news (including ski news) that once more the F-15 was awarded as by far, the worlds finest fighter. The Soviets failed to develop an effective medium range missle & addequate targeting computer/radar systems to stack up. But the Soviets did have significantly cheaper aircraft.
Stealths. The goal of a stealth is not invisibility, but rather reduced visibility. A B-2 is almost impossible to spot except with incredibly powerfull radar. The Aegis system in use aboard warships is effective at detecting stealths. The real advantage is when something like the F-22 goes head to head with any other fighter/AWACS combination in the world. The other side never sees what kills them. If you throw in a state of the art ground based radar, the F-22 is only safe if the missle is fire-and-forget (active radar which does not use an exterior radar lock) The US has by far the worlds most powerfull air force because we have the size & the toys. We have too. Our ground forces don't match up to your Royal forces 1:1. Are normal pilots don't match up to the Isrealis (who does?). The F-22 is ideal.

Getting rid of civ specific traits would be appropriate too if one trashed UUs.
 
I meant the F-15 is ideal for america, and a cheap nuclear sub for the Russians. Since the Russians lag the US & UK in submarine technology, but built so many, why not give them a submarine price difference. (or faster like the Alfas)
 
Originally posted by Illustrious
Not unless there was a formal legal adoption, no. "Eldest son" means what it says, and in particular means legitimate son.
By crest I did mean the extention to the helmet.

The reason I question the literal meaning of "Eldest son" is because of the issue of excommunication. If one is booted out of the family for having a conflicting moral/political view, they are no longer the heir and they lose any title (I think).

---

The USA does have a big airforce, but not for it's size. Civ3 makes the assumption that each civilisation will develop in the same way that it really did - when the chances are they will not! So if America turns out to be a couple of cities on the far edge of a continent, where's the logic in giving it a more influencial USAF?

Civ-specific traits are also a little strange (IMHO) because it's the player's traits that influence the game! :)
 
Originally posted by stormbind The reason I question the literal meaning of "Eldest son" is because of the issue of excommunication. If one is booted out of the family for having a conflicting moral/political view, they are no longer the heir and they lose any title (I think).
NO. Under English law a man can only "disinherit" a son from those possessions over which he has a legal right to direct the inheritance. Titles of nobility pass as of right to the eldest legitimate son or - if he predeceased his father - to his eldest son. The same is true of heraldic arms. In the landed nobility, most land is similarly "entailed". Even if there has been the most monumental bust-up in the family, daddy cannot divert the title, the estate or the arms to anyone else. Disinheritance as the big paternal weapon derives from the 19th century nouveaux riches, who had wealth which was not entailed, and so could use inheritance as a tool in family arguments.

Excommunication has no meaning here, being a legal term belonging to the Catholic church. There is no common law equivalent for families!

The only circumstance in which someone could be denied his legitimate birthright was "attainder" - someone guilty of treason could be attainted by law, which would result among other things in his losing any rights of inheritance he might possess. That was, however, externally imposed - a father could not attaint his son just because they argued.

The USA does have a big airforce, but not for it's size. Civ3 makes the assumption that each civilisation will develop in the same way that it really did - when the chances are they will not! So if America turns out to be a couple of cities on the far edge of a continent, where's the logic in giving it a more influencial USAF?
There isn't any. But then, that isn't really the assumption Civ3 is making. What Civ3 is doing is to assume that civs will develop one particular factor of how they fought wars in the same way regardless of how their overall in-game development progresses.

The UUs are in the main fairly minor tweaks to normal units that could have arisen in a situation-independent way, and are allocated to civs according to how they panned out historically. The problem is, the USA arose too recently to have ever possessed a style of making war that was unique or even particularly distinctive either in type or degree.

Mind you, you can say that about other civs. France gets the musketeer - why? Not really because of any unique lead France ever had in early musket fighting, but because everybody has heard of the Three Musketeers, and they were French.

Most of the UUs make some sort of sense - either the civ in question was the first, or the only, or the best at using a particular combat system (although I have me doubts about the Egyptians and the war chariot). I suppose the F15 as a UU has a sort of slender justification.

Civ-specific traits are also a little strange (IMHO) because it's the player's traits that influence the game! :)
It's the terminology that's at fault there. As far as the AI civs go, it's reasonable to refer to them as traits, as they will somewhat influence the AI's actions. For the player civ, it would be better to refer to them simply as "built-in advantages", since the player can choose to play totally against them if he wishes.
 
Originally posted by Illustrious
NO. Under English law a man can only "disinherit" a son from those possessions over which he has a legal right to direct the inheritance. Titles of nobility pass as of right to the eldest legitimate son or - if he predeceased his father - to his eldest son. The same is true of heraldic arms. In the landed nobility, most land is similarly "entailed". Even if there has been the most monumental bust-up in the family, daddy cannot divert the title, the estate or the arms to anyone else.
Wow! :)
 
stormbind
America had no unique military tactic?
Americans were the first to use air calvary so maybe the helicopter should be the uu. maybe give it more transport and range or something.
 
Re: Air Cavalry. I had not thought of that! :)

:goodjob:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom