[Speculation] in the Venice Civ way! do we have a new CIV&CSA system on the futur?

[lacond]

My speculation is very simple:
Venice is THE model and also the best definition of a what is a city state on CIV V.

Does the fact Venice is probably be the next new civ prefigure a new game system where city state can transform themselves as a entire CIV during the game?

for example, at the early game you discover Vienne as city state and at the middle or late game this city state go to Austria Civ ( By building a second city, winning a war, or just being recognize as civ by other civ? )

In my opinion, it would be really great, adding a new and surprising dimension in the game !
( and also substituting the vassal system of civ IV which still not included in Brave new world)

do you want to explore this speculation with me?

sorry for my english, I do my best

 

[Arachnofiend]

As interesting as I think it would be if city-states could evolve into real civs with the ability to pursue victory conditions after conquering and building an empire for itself I think that's a feature to be saved for Civ VI.

In addition, Venice has not always been a city-state. As has been shown multiple times during the height of their power Venice had a fairly extensive empire, stretching across the Mediterranean.

 

[Verified_Confection_Being]

Nope, it's a civ plain and simple. The premise of your thread is a little skewed if you think it's just a city state though. If you have a little read of its wikipedia page you'll by wowed

Or of course, you could wait 5 mins for the effective copy pasta and learn something right here.

 

[codepoet]

Venice is THE model and also the best definition of a what is a city state on CIV V.

No.
Tyre, Vatican City and Malta are better. Venice was not a City-State

 

[Arachnofiend]

Vatican City had an empire, too. The Papal States were a major political and military power in their hey day; so much in fact that Machiavelli was able to use the Pope as an example of a strong Prince. You can imagine how that went over with the church.

 

[codepoet]

Vatican City had an empire, too. The Papal States were a major political and military power in their hey day; so much in fact that Machiavelli was able to use the Pope as an example of a strong Prince. You can imagine how that went over with the church.

True enough. I was referring to current Vatican City though. Otherwise, it'd still be called the Papal States?

 

[Arachnofiend]

Current Venice is just a city, too. I would suspect that, in the theoretical that they put Vatican City in as a genuine civ, they would use it as its heyday (and therefore make it the Papal States).

Granted that is never going to happen because I don't think Firaxis can get away with using the Pope as a leaderhead.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

No.
Venice was not a City-State

It's practically in the definition of "City-State." They're one of the reasons that term came into being in the first place.

 

[Arachnofiend]

Does that look like one city to you

 

[albie_123]

I get the feeling that map has been linked to in the past few days more than in all of its previous existence.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Does that look like one city to you

city-state
noun (Concise Encyclopedia)

Political system consisting of an independent city with sovereignty over a fixed surrounding area for which it served as leader of religious, political, economic, and cultural life. The term was coined in the 19th century to describe ancient Greek and Phoenician settlements that differed from tribal or national systems in size, exclusivity, patriotism, and ability to resist incorporation by other communities. They may have developed when earlier tribal systems broke down and splintered groups established themselves as independent nuclei c. 1000–800 BC; by the 5th century BC they numbered in the hundreds, with Athens, Sparta, and Thebes among the most important. Incapable of forming any lasting union or federation, they eventually fell victim to the Macedonians, the Carthaginians, and the Roman empire. In the 11th century the city-state revived in Italy; the success of medieval Italy's city-states, including Pisa, Florence, Venice, and Genoa, was due to growing prosperity from trade with the East, and several survived into the 19th century. Germany's medieval city-states included Hamburg, Bremen, and Lübeck. The only city-state extant today is Vatican City.

No, but it looks a lot like a city-state to me.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/city-state

 

[Arachnofiend]

Okay, so you pulled up a definition that gives an incomplete look at Venetian history. What's your point?

Venice isn't any more of a city-state than Babylon.

 

[WiseGreen]

If you're making that argument for Venice, one should also be made for Athens, Sparta and most of Greece's city list. Which were city-states far before Venice was founded.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Okay, so you pulled up a definition that gives an incomplete look at Venetian history. What's your point?

Venice isn't any more of a city-state than Babylon.

It's just not a definition, man. It's every definition. Historians came up with the term "City-State" to define situations exactly like Venice (citing Venice as a specific example alongside the ancient Greek ones). If Venice wasn't a city-state, then there was never a such thing as City-State.

I'm not saying that Venice isn't going to be cool. I'm just not so sure that people understand what City-State means.

 

[Menzies]

It's just not a definition, man. It's every definition. Historians came up with the term "City-State" to define situations exactly like Venice (citing Venice as a specific example alongside the ancient Greek ones). If Venice wasn't a city-state, then there was never a such thing as City-State.

I'm not saying that Venice isn't going to be cool. I'm just not so sure that people understand what City-State means.

To be fair, most cite Rome and Carthage as examples as well.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

I agree, Rome, Carthage, Babylon, and pretty sure there are few other nations that are pretty much "city-states" who had large empires. Venice is just one of them.

 

[lacond]

Ok. sorry the confusion.

the frontier between city state and civ is very straigth; we know that.

the concept of city state has been forged in several context and historic period ( antic greek, Rome formation), you're right. but venice still be a conformed definition of a city state before being a conformed definition of a civilization. city state means city which is independant of stronger power, like all this italian cities during the late medieval and renaissance period. instead of venitian founded few town, in order to increase and defend there trade routes.

Venice is more a city state than Vienne, Warsaw, Rio de Janeiro and other's.

This is the main reason ( Venice would be the first historical and true city state to be envolved as a entire civ in this game.) I'm thinking of this new system that in my opinion, and far away the debate of the political nature of Venice, would be a really great option.... for the last CIV V expansion ( after BNW)

But Maybe thinking like this is a wrong way!

 

[SammyKhalifa]

To be fair, most cite Rome and Carthage as examples as well.

Oh, I totally agree. I'm just getting tired of all of the "no they weren't a city-state at all look at all these lands they conquered."

I don't even know that I'm against them being in (except that Europe is a bit over-represented perhaps). If nothing else they could have a pretty cool flavor.

Anyhow, it could be a pretty neat system to "graduate" CSes into Empires. Not sure how it would work, because a human player would never do that (be one). But that's something to think about for later.

 

[fuzzatron717]

Edit some people made good arguments that outmatches the one I posted.

 

[turingmachine]

It's just not a definition, man. It's every definition. Historians came up with the term "City-State" to define situations exactly like Venice (citing Venice as a specific example alongside the ancient Greek ones). If Venice wasn't a city-state, then there was never a such thing as City-State.

I'm not saying that Venice isn't going to be cool. I'm just not so sure that people understand what City-State means.

Your cited definition also says the Vatican is the only city-state today when San Marino was never unified into Italy and existed far longer than Vatican City (Vatican City didn't come into existence until 1929, the capital of the Papal States was simply Rome). Your definition is not the end-all in terms of discussing city-states.

Yes at times in its history the Venice was a city-state; i.e. a sovereign state that consists of only the area of a city and its immediate surrounding area. At other times Venice was just a city, not a city-state, and for another time it was a legitimate Empire with foreign territory. All of that can also be used to describe Carthage, Babylon, and Rome.