Spy vs. Spy

[King Flevance]

I just recently got BTS having skipped Warlords. The most interesting and overwhelming aspect that I can see (outside of all the new civs) is the new espionage system. It's extremely fun and it makes alphabet more intense to go after than it was before... to me anyways. I used to not worry about alphabet and tade for it. Now, I am not so sure that is a good idea. When my opponents have spies and I don't it downright sucks.

I am curious as to what you guys use as espionage strategies. Like early on:
1) How do you weight your espionage early on? Evenly? Pick 1 guy? 2?

I tend to pick 1 guy right off the bat, but this can sometimes work against me. I have played a couple games now where I was spying on 1 guy and later found out he was a good ally, so I switched and had some "wasted" points. In my current game though, I didn't spy on Charlemagne at all and was building relatons with him. Which he ended up declaring war on me with almost a friendly status (although I was a point or two off so technically pleased.) Which he then kept sending spies in and poisoning my water. (which was brilliant as he had 2 cities go to a 1 pop from a 5-7 so my unit costs shot up.)

Which brings me to my next question:
2) What missions if any do you use?
I try not to use many missions because I like getting LOS and Investigate and I find it hard to get to those caps along with maintain it. So I don't know how much of my holding back on missions is really in vain. I have really been enjoying the Sumerians though so I get real early courthouses right now for all those espionage points.

Another question:
3) How often do you use spy specialists? How early do you increase the espionage slider?
I usually use specialists more than the slider. Although I don't really use them that much either. And I have yet to get a Great Spy. How much should you really invest in espionage early on?

Final espionage question:
4) How do you use your Great Spies?
As I said, I have yet to get one but it seems that the SPy mission in a foreign City is sort of like the GM's trade mission. (Which I only find useful in dire situations.) I would suspect everyone uses them as specialists.

PS: Any news of when v3.13 is coming out? I know its done as they said but what is the approximated ETA if anyone knows. I am wanting to get all my old vanilla mods up and running again and suspect that I should wait until v3.13 is released.

Cheers.

 

[Enigma256]

1. evenly, except if i'm at war and i don't have enough espionage points to see their cities

2. none.
just passive to see their cities

3. i have one dedicated city, with all Great Spies, Scotland Yards and as many spy specialists as possible
slider stays at 0% for the entire game

4. settle the first, build scotland yard with the second, settle all the rest.


PS: when it's done
use the Solver Patch for now, espionage has some game crippling bugs, especially on slow speeds.

 

[ButSam]

The new & improved espionage system is my favorite feature as well (with AI a close 2nd). I have heard from others that espionage is broken on game speeds other than Normal, but there is a patch that will be out to fix that. In the meantime, I have played about 6 Normal-speed games with no noticeable issues.

1) I usually target most heavily the person who is targeting me with the most spy points, unless I have a target I am planning a mission against. I like having everyone at least weight 1, but here is a sample layout of weights I use assuming 4 known civs to target: 5, 2, 1, 1... 5 may be the civ I am targeting next, 2 is a civ that spies more on me than the others tend to, and the others I want at least some spy points in reserve in case they turn against me.

The espionage slider is at 0% for about 1/2 of the game for me, but not all at once. I usually leave it at 0% right after founding Alphabet, but will increase it to 10% once I get Currency since my economy is better-developed so I can afford it. (I get Currency generally as my first tech at that research depth of the tree.)

2) I use: Steal Tech, Foment Unhappiness, Poison Water, Destroy Improvement, and Revolt (immediately before attacking a city) the most frequently, although I think I have done every mission at least once.

3) I use spy specialists on occasion in my main city. Also, build the Great Wall for an early boost to spying.

4) Great Spies are quite useful. I either infiltrate a rival civ, or settle as a specialist in my capitol, for the first great spy -- depends on if I have one primary target or want my points more spread out over the civs. The second generally builds Scotland Yard, as long as the boost by the Yard is more than 12 EP's per turn (since a specialist gives 12 EP's + something else...beakers I think).

As for the patch, it'll be out when it'll be out. I know it's frustrating, but we have had 2 deadlines come and go now without a patch. The game is still extremely enjoyable without the patch (at least on Normal speed where I always play).

Hope this helps...

 

[Neapolitan]

In case the last two posters weren't clear enough, you needn't worry about your current espionage points when it comes to the "Passive" missions like City Visablity and knowing what is being researched. Passive missions come from your total espionage points against that civ and will keep adding up no matter how freely you use your points.

 

[Gre_Magus]

Neapolitan - I'm not sure what you mean, but I've been in situations where performing an active espionage mission that uses points will bring my total down below the point where I can see research and cities. I don't think passive missions are based on "total all time" but "current total."
So you do have to balance whether poising your rival's water is worth not being able to see what he's researching, at least until your total builds back up.

 

[Neapolitan]

It makes sense to me, but I haven't noticed the effect myself. I might have made a mistake in referencing the game manual which ending up being shipped as a very rough draft...

In any case I wouldn't recommend ignoring active missions entirely. There's a lot of stuff spies can do which can put you back at the top of the scoreboard.

 

[King Flevance]

Neapolitan - I'm not sure what you mean, but I've been in situations where performing an active espionage mission that uses points will bring my total down below the point where I can see research and cities. I don't think passive missions are based on "total all time" but "current total."
So you do have to balance whether poising your rival's water is worth not being able to see what he's researching, at least until your total builds back up.

This is correct. I have lost enough points to lose sight of some passive things. This is why I described that I do not like doing missions sometimes as usually I have my espionage weighted heavily on someone. Like forinstance in my curent game all my espionage is weighted on Charlemagne now. So eventually (because he is my friend) Sitting Bull will no longer show me what he is reasearching. However, I have to make sure I stay in the passive limit of Fredrick of which I can also currently see what he is researching. As he seems to be really attracted to war with me right now as well and I have caught some of his spies in my lands.

I usually target most heavily the person who is targeting me with the most spy points

I was wondering if you could do this. How do you know who is targetting you?

 

[eewallace]

I usually put more of my points into the guys at my borders, even if they are allies. For missions, I generally have at least a couple of spies that are constantly making runs to cities just beyond my borders to perform counterespionage. And every once in a while I get an opportunity to steal a tech, which of course I can't pass up. As for specialists, I think I've only used them once, when I was at war and really needed to crank up the points. As for great spies, I've used them all 3 ways--building, great specialist, and getting a huge amount of points against an enemy. Not sure which is best, except that the building one seems most suited for the latest stages of the game.

I think the new espionage system has made the game alot more fun and versatile.

 

[ButSam]

I was wondering if you could do this. How do you know who is targetting you?

At quick glance, you know you are spending more spy points than someone else if there is a spy icon next to their name.

More specifically, you cannot tell the spy points per turn, but you can tell how many total spy points each civ has (along with spy points you have against them) by hovering over their name in the bottom right corner. The first number is the espionage points they have spent against you, the second number is the espionage points you have spent against them.

I actually think this should be a feature that is not automatic -- but that kicks in as a "Passive" feature once you reach a certain (relatively low) number of espionage points. This requires some investment in a civ to know how much spying they are doing, which is more realistic.

I also agree with eewallace that I tend to target neighbors more heavily as well.

Sam

 

[King Flevance]

That's good to know. I agree that it would be better if it was an additional passive trait. I had to load up the game to get a hands on look. This new espionage system gets better and better.

 

[snipafist]

1) How do you weight your espionage early on? Evenly? Pick 1 guy? 2?
I pick whoever is closest to me and thus, whoever I'm most likely to war against. If I'm bordered by two states, I try to split even unless war seems much more likely with one than the other. I never split even if I can help it - it's basically wasting espionage points, as you'll never get much against most people that way.

2) What missions if any do you use?
I'll steal techs if I have enough points (great spies, yay!), steal gold if their coffers are loaded, spread my culture if it's close to tipping, poison water and incite unhappiness if I'm softening them up or trying to undercut an important city, and incite rebellions if I'm about to attack (it reduces cultural defense to 0%, very helpful). If I'm getting a lot of spies in my turf, I meticulously do counterespionage missions to keep my cities from being poisoned, etc. In short, I do a lot.

3) How often do you use spy specialists? How early do you increase the espionage slider?
I rarely use the slider, if ever. It's important to keep up in the tech race. Occasionally, I'll use spy specialists, but I prefer to simply use the points I get from buildings.

4) How do you use your Great Spies?
In the earlier game, using a great spy against an advanced neighbor can net you 4+ stolen techs worth of spy points, which is simply amazing. If I'm not in that kind of position, I often use them as a specialist. The extra espionage adds up pretty quickly (especially in the earlier game), and the bonus beakers don't hurt either.