Squatting on another civ's spawn area

[chococid]

This atlas (which needs updating since some spawn areas have changed, like more Germany and Russia):
http://civ4.technologyresourcesgroup.com/

Don't read the wiki until you've done all the UHVs--it's nice to have somebody good to try their hand at UHVs from a fresh viewpoint.

I'm not THAT good. *glances at his India and China failures*

Tried the Ethiopian squat (without a capital there) and failed. And if you look on the map, even if you founded a city north of Aksum it would still eventually flip to them because Aksum's palace will have enough culture.
Did you update your version (or are you playing straight out of the box)?

Oh, yeah, I'm still playing straight out of the box. BTS Version... 3.0.3.1 That probably has a lot to do with it.

For reasons mostly related to me being a cheap bastard, I don't have update capability.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

So since France spawns 3 turns after Spain, it's almost impossible to squat on their territory. (We've already discussed Lisboa before.) But if you want to get to Rome early, you should found Barcelona (2 tiles away from Marseilles), whip a monument, and send all initial troops towards Marseilles. It's usually just defended by a crossbowman, so I sacrifice a swordsman and maybe another longbowman, raze it and you'll have your corridor open. It's just before Marseilles flips to France that you can do this--Bordeaux is too far away for this to work, and in any case Bordeaux's culture will repel your invaders. You deprive France of a city, and it's also ruins that may spark later scientific discoveries. After La Coruna and Madrid (founded 1 south of the iron), your culture should be enough to prevent any contact France might have with Mali and the rest of the non-European world.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

So it didn't dawn on me until later today that you can declare war with a settler. So I divided my initial Spanish forces in 2 (2 longbowmen, 1 swordsman each), sent them NE across the Pyrenees, and founded in that order, Lisboa, Bilbao, and Barcelona (all these cities ending with vowels!). Of course Bilbao was tramping on independent territory so that when my troops got there they didn't get kicked out, because I'm already at war with them!!
And you can see the aftermath: 2 soon-to-be French cities in ruins.
I haven't played this out yet, but it's going to be interesting how early I can collapse the French. Plus now I can keep Paris which will be super productive without Bordeaux and Marseilles!

 

[Legendre]

Pacifist, you're a mad genius! I want to try this now, but I have to grade problem sets

 

[blizzrd]

What if your 2 longbows and a sword fail to kill the crossbow defender in Marseilles/Bordeaux? Wouldn't the odds be against you in this/these contest(s)?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

What if your 2 longbows and a sword fail to kill the crossbow defender in Marseilles/Bordeaux? Wouldn't the odds be against you in this/these contest(s)?

From the 4-5 trials I've done, it's a 3:1 chance that you'll capture the city with the loss of 1-2 troops (most definitely the swordsman, and probably one of the longbowman). I got lucky one time and captured a city with just the swordsman sacrificed. 1 out of 4 times I lost all 3 but that's OK odds.

BTW, it's important that Bordeaux has Christianity so that its southernmost border has expanded into your territory, so that your settler can declare war. Otherwise on the 3rd move that tile will be nominally Spanish so you won't be able to declare war.

I'm now in 1450, got to liberalism first, chose printing press, already half past conquering Aztecs and Incans, ready to send my first settler to America. Portugal I opened borders with (so that they won't teleport to Porta Delgada), and eventually their settlers died after a plague in Spain. Then they declared war and their troops disappeared somewhere else and into history.

Of course I'm in HR/bureaucracy/pacifism right now. Built University of Sankore, Forbidden Palace, Leaning Tower and Wat Preah Pisnulok (got beaten to Notre Dame by Netherlands, either France or China for Sistine Chapel and the almighty Spiral Minaret by Mali--of all civs!). France is not doing too bad with just Paris and Rennes, and they know gunpowder and music (which I traded for with paper and philosophy and education), so I'm pretty sure they're researching either astronomy or military tradition. Bilbao and Granada are building citadels/stables and troops while Lisboa is concentrating on ships and money/science. I'm going to switch to Theocracy and Representation soon (8 moves from Constitution and a great engineer to be ready in 7 moves) which I don't think there's a penalty for this combination; and after I conquer the French and Dutch and after Democracy I'll switch to emancipation and free religion.

England is way behind (doesn't even know optics yet), while Germany already has optics. My next move after conquering France will be military science for the frigates to strangle England. Netherlands still only has 1 city so my troops from the French war should crush them like a bug.

Or maybe I should just go for 2/3 UHV (let the English and French found their colonies) and go for a spaceship?

 

[Walliard]

Wait, what do you accomplish by declaring war with a settler if your troops get there at the same time?

 

[Legendre]

For city placement, since Marseilles is being razed I founded Barcelona one tile north of where you placed it. You have to wait until after you settle in Lisboa and for all the borders to get pushed back while you spawn, but I think the placement is a little bit better since you'll overlap less with Granada and get the horse and a few extra tiles that are out of Paris' and Venice's fat crosses.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Wait, what do you accomplish by declaring war with a settler if your troops get there at the same time?

No, the fact that your settler is you only starting unit that can travel 2 squares at a time, means that you need to declare war on the independents and not get pushed back when their culture reexpands after the 3rd turn. I think even if you declare war on Marseilles the troops you're sending towards Bordeaux might get pushed back (do they belong to the same independent state?). Anyway, they're not going to attack your settler since they only have one defender in each city.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

For city placement, since Marseilles is being razed I founded Barcelona one tile north of where you placed it. You have to wait until after you settle in Lisboa and for all the borders to get pushed back while you spawn, but I think the placement is a little bit better since you'll overlap less with Granada and get the horse and a few extra tiles that are out of Paris' and Venice's fat crosses.

That's true, but France eventually gets the horse due to their "intrinsic Frenchness." Until you collapse them, that is. So I figure don't waste any Aragonian Sea tiles.

 

[coko]

In my aggressive Spain game I have force Portugal abroad and destroyed the french with massive catapult attacks (14 experience points to start with HURTS then bad!) Will work into German now.

Going to try the Maya starting in Aztec land idea and see what happens, I think biggest issue will be defending it, but it has good location. Wish me luck!

 

[blizzrd]

I think even if you declare war on Marseilles the troops you're sending towards Bordeaux might get pushed back (do they belong to the same independent state?).

They did when I played it out tonight. Bordeos didn't have Christianity, but declaring war on Marseilles was all that was required.

Founding Barcelona in reach of the Horses to the north was my preference also. I also founded Granada with an early settler in reach of the sheep and clam down in the south of Spain.

Portugal spawned but didn't get any ships, just a bunch of units who moved around my territory for a while and then stopped moving in Bilbao. They've been there ever since. I founded Ponta Delgada myself in an effort to then gift it to Portugal, but it isn't coming up as an option to do so unfortunately. They are my vassal (as are Khmer, Aztec and Inca), I wonder if this is the reason? I don't think it is, because I gifted Inca two cities after they became my vassal which worked.

 

[blizzrd]

That's true, but France eventually gets the horse due to their "intrinsic Frenchness." Until you collapse them, that is. So I figure don't waste any Aragonian Sea tiles.

I had Christianity spread to Barcelona the very turn after I founded, so I had use of the horses for a while. Then when French culture eventually pushed me out (after about 10 turns I think it was) I let them have it with 4 knights attacking from their sitting point in the Netherlands territory.

I got the horses back straight away.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I know what, I'm going to play for a Spanish diplomatic win, which I've never done except for Rome. I'll try for a whole empire challenge too.

 

[ijnavy]

Has anyone ever gotten the historic size of the Umayyad Dynasty?

 

[Úmarth]

You couldn't do it within the timeframe of the Ummayads (13 turns from Arab spawn to 750).

 

[blizzrd]

I squatted on Lisboa with the Spanish again last night.

This time when the Portuguese spawned they got their ships (that's the first out of 5 times this happened though) and sailed out to found Ponta Delgada.

Having tried various research paths with Spain, I now favour Meditation-Engineering-Guilds-Compass-Optics-Gunpowder-Astronomy. Lizzie will trade Calendar to you with all of her gold and map right after you learn Compass and open up her trade routes at the same time. This path allows you to whip our Christian Monasteries for the extra hammers early, gets you the financial assistance of Citadels online early and gives you the ability to get to build Notre Dame before someone else builds it.

In terms of racing to the new world, as long as you are going to crush France after razing Bordeaux and Marseilles, I always (5/5) was in the tech lead to Caravels. I have decided that seige units are not necessary to take down either Paris or Amsterdam, 6-7 Knights will do the trick nicely.

Getting Gunpowder before you meet the Aztecs and Incas will result in upgrades for your conquerors, who can then be shipped back to Europe to drop in on Lizzie before she thinks about colonizing anywhere other than Ireland.

With the conqueror event, I was finding that often I wasn't triggering it in the early 1200s when I found the Aztec cultural area. But after 1260, it worked every time. Is there a date requirement on the event?

 

[wr4th]

i thought the date requirement was 1300AD, but that might be wrong as you say it worked out in 1260...

 

[blizzrd]

It may have been 1270 rather than 1260, but I was certainly before 1300. A bit confusing...

In one of my various "Lisboa squat" games recently, I rushed to Optics so quickly that I discovered Mexico and Peru in the early 1100s. This obviously doesn't really achieve anything (other than the +1 ship movement bonus, but that can be gained without the crazy beeline for Optics), so I now recommend the Spanish pick up Meditation, Engineering and Guilds before heading for Compass and Optics.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Having tried various research paths with Spain, I now favour Meditation-Engineering-Guilds-Compass-Optics-Gunpowder-Astronomy. Lizzie will trade Calendar to you with all of her gold and map right after you learn Compass and open up her trade routes at the same time. This path allows you to whip our Christian Monasteries for the extra hammers early, gets you the financial assistance of Citadels online early and gives you the ability to get to build Notre Dame before someone else builds it.

Being the pacifist/wondermonger that I am, I do paper-meditation-civil service-guilds-philosophy(bulbed)-education (bulbed)-compass-optics-astronomy. Filled in the gaps with aesthetics (traded from somebody), literature (for the Leaning Tower in Lisboa) and drama. I trade for engineering and calendar from the Dutch/French (not giving them compass obviously) and Divine Right from Mali. Gunpowder can either be had for 3-4 turns of research or traded from the French. Rather than build Notre Dame for happiness, I go for Univ. of Sankore because you'll definitely have enough happiness from vassals and resources later on.