Stagnant Epic Game

[Waywatcher]

So I won my first Regent Epic game today after a few Epics I restarted mainly out of boredom. To bolster my pride, I promised myself, regardless of what happened, that I'd play through to the end. But this had to be one of the strangest games I've ever been involved in. And, ironically, by far one of the most boring.

Myself (the Ottomans), the Russians, and the Spanish were on one continent and "the other folks" (I was playing against 6 Random civs) turned out to be China, Japan, the Mongols, and the Germans, on the other continent. I started out a stone's throw from the Spanish and, by expanding outside-in, locked them behind a narrow choke point city, pretty much guaranteeing a war. Since I'd found both horses and iron close to my core cities to begin the game, I was prepared for such a circumstances. Sure enough, a pathetic "SoD" consisting of 3 warriors trampled on my land, I confronted the Spanish with an ultimatum, and Elizabeth declared war. In less than 10 turns, the Spanish were a historical speedbump. After I filled in the formerly Spanish lands south of my core with conquered/resettled cities, I turned my sites towards the largely unexploited north and began a settler crawl/military expansion. Hoping, doubtfully, that I was the only civ left on my continent, I was disappointed, but not surprised, to find the Russians had vomited out city after city on their northern peninsula. I knew a war was on the near horizon.

Anyway, Russia and I became historical enemies. Barely ever trading, and exchanging decades long wars (which diminished Catherine's lands little by little), I pretty much assured myself that the only way there would be peace between us would be if it were dictated to the Russians on my terms via an overwhelming military. Of course, that's usually the case in Civ3 anyway. So after building and upgrading that overwhelming force, I reverted to a builder's strategy long enough to gear for another industrial era push northward, and perhaps expansion to the other continents.

I'm extremely bad with suicide galleys. Whenever I try getting them out, they typically never make it more than 1 square before capsizing. And losing shields in such a manner is something I can't abide by, regardless of my attempts to convince myself of their risk/reward benefits. As a result, I didn't get to the other continent until the middle of the medieval era. And I certainly was unwilling to risk a settler and a defensive garrison on a galley until I discovered Navigation at the very least. By that time, however, I found out to my chagrin that the other continent had been packed nearly to the brim by all 4 civs, to varying degrees. The Chinese and Mongols seemed to be the dominant powers, but the Germans and Japanese had established a fairly large empire of their own. One thing was sure, there wasn't going to be space for me until I created it. And, unless I was going to become a purebred warmonger, that wasn't going to happen. Nor could I afford diverting forces away from my main continent until I made sure Russia was either no more, or too crippled to factor into the equation.

So I waited until the inevitable late medieval/early industrial World War to break out amongst the AI countries on the other continent.

But it never happened. Not for 1500 years. Once MPPs became available, the Mongols signed up every other civ on their continent. And the MPPs were constantly renewed. Not only that, it appears the other civs were all peacefully trading amongst one another as I would routinely check the Trade Advisor screen for trading opportunities, only to find that the AI had nothing to offer. Checking the Foreign Advisor screen showed me that multiple AIs had active deals going on. I finally managed to luck out one turn when I managed to make a bid for Chinese ivory. And then the game got even weirder. Under the deals tab in the Foreign Advisor screen was a parenthetical number indicating the number of turns that were left in the deal. When the deal expired, I renegotiated with the Chinese and they (inevitably) wanted me to sweeten the deal, which I was in a position to do since my economy was a freight train and my infrastructure was extremely healthy. What I needed most was more luxuries.

So when I signed up for ivory again, I checked 6-7 turns later out of curiosity only to find, somehow, that there was no longer a parenthetical number under the Deals tab indicating the remaining duration of the trade. And, sure enough 12-13 turns later when the trade should have expired, it didn't. The Chinese didn't inform me "it was nice doing business with you." and, as it turned out, I enjoyed Chinese ivory in exchange for Ottoman incense for a thousand years. I'm thinking the same thing happened with the other AIs on the continent because I was unable to make any future trades - resources simply never made themselves available, even though the other continent was practically teeming with luxuries. And none of the AIs ever took so much as a swing at one another. So, rather than weakening one another and allowing me to a make push for the other continent once the Russians were no more, the AIs were in a perpetual MPP guaranteeing, should I attack one, I would be attacking them all. After waiting a few centuries for the situation to change and finding the state of affairs to be permanent, I decided to focus on a space race victory rather than undergo the painful process of taking on 4 well developed civs with large militaries at the same time with transported forces on a small beachhead.

But I've never seen anything like it before. Perpetual deals? Ever-lasting friendships? Was I accidentally given the "Utopian" World Seed Number? Did John Lennon finally convince everybody of the mystical, universal truth, that "All You Need Is Love"? Can anyone explain this set of circumstances to me? Although this world environment would be a fantastic occurence were it ever to happen for real, it certainly made for a long, boring, tedious, and inflexible Epic game of Civ. And, frankly, I'm reluctant to fire another one up, fearing somehow it'll end up the same way...

Any insight from the gallery?

The watcher.

 

[rbis4rbb]

Maybe this belongs in the Stoires and Tales forum.

 

[silver 2039]

Not really he's asking about something.

 

[MikeH]

I often find if things are too peaceful you have to start the world war yourself and sign up a few allies, particularly good are alliances that involve your ally breaking an agreement with someone else. You can then bale out at the first opportunity and get on with peacefully buildiing your spaceship whilst everybody else switches to Fascism and fouls up their research or just warmonger your way to victory, depending on your style.

 

[Smellincoffee]

Usually what starts series of wars is when the balance of power is disturbed. The other continent probably never saw any wars, so nothing was ever disturbed. I've also seen that some delcarations of war are totally random.

 

[magritte]

A couple of things probably happened. One is that you maintained trade agreements, probably because without any wars to reduce their strength or increase yours, the deal continued to look good to them. Incidentally you can cancel them yourself after 20 turns--click on the active tab when you're in the diplomatic screen.

Since you were trading with the A.I.'s on the other continent, and probably Russia had little to offer them to entice them into war, they remained peaceful. Your army was probably stronger than any other nation's making them more reluctant to attack, and since they were on another continent, they weren't pressured by your cultural expansion. Did you go to democracy? If everyone has the same government, that also reduces the chances of war.

Also, the Japanese, Mongols and Chinese are all in the same culture grouping, making them more friendly toward each other. I'm surprised the Germans didn't get themselves wiped out.

Sounds like an easy diplomatic win as soon as you research fission and build the U.N., but spaceship will work as well, just not as soon.

 

[Oddible]

Interesting - at this point I really dig it when strange things happen in a game - something novel that I haven't seen before. A whoel continent in peace the majority of the game is certainly unusual. Probably all managed to get in some sort of lock step where they maintained military parity throughout and all citizens were happy enough. Did they have all the resources they needed?

I kinda like maintaining parity in games - with one or two superpowers to contend with and a handful of other folks to work with / carry. Mixes builder style with warmonger style nicely. And as for the small beachhead landing goes, after airports become available - it only takes taking one city and having 800 gold to get a huge load of troops over there.

So did you get the Space Race? I would think Diplo win would have been reasonable too - the other continent's AI are very friendly with eachother and may not need anything from you, but probably aren't big enough to get a vote (right?) which means its you and whom vying for the UN?

 

[Waywatcher]

@MikeH: That's exactly what I was going to do, if the Mongols hadn't signed MPPs with every country on the continent. Worst case scenario, if I pick a fight against the Mongols, I take on the whole continent at once. Best case scenario, if I declare on the Japanese, Chinese, or Germans, I would have had the Mongols jump in as well. And the worst part is the Mongols kept consistently renewing the MPP. Later on the Chinese (the largest superpower on their continent) signed an additional MPP with Japan (the 3rd largest civ on the other continent). Either way, it would've been far bloodier than I was prepared for. I had a large, cutting edge military, but it would've been a full era before flight and airports (yeah, I like the airlift tactic myself too, Oddible) and there was a solid 25-30 tiles of ocean and sea between my continent and theirs. All the while, the Russians were still next door and holding a (rightful, hehe ) grudge against me. I was looking for a distraction in the form of an AI world war to make my move...but it never happened..

@Smellincoffee: Yeah, I think power balance and cultural links went a long way in keeping the other continent friendly, I suppose. But it was weird. Apart from the Germans, who were a backwater civ the whole game, the whole continent was expanding rapidly, militarily and economically (which is another reason why I'm shocked Germany was still alive as well. And, not only that, they'd also signed up the Mongols in what turned out to be a perpetual MPP). I think Oddible hit it on the head - the whole continent was advancing nearly in lockstep, additionally making the prospect of fighting all of the civs simultaneously extremely unattractive.

@magritte: Yeah, I know I can cancel trade agreements, but I was quite happy to get the ivory. What was bizarre was that the deal never expired. I was under the impression that AIs always pulled the rug out from under a deal after the 20th turn, regardless of how sensible, in exchange for "a little more." Always. Is that not true? Are some deals so fantastic (in this case ivory for incense and, a 150 gold lump sum), that the AI chooses never to let it expire? Also, it appears the same thing happened between the AIs on the other continent, as no other luxuries ever became available for trade, presumably because they also had perpetual active deals going on. It was surreal.

The Russians were a non-factor insomuch as they didn't even meet anyone from the other continent for a full era and a half after me (I obviously never sold them my contacts, nor would I). Nor did the AIs bump into Russia. It wouldn't have mattered though. I screwed the Russians over militarily, but my reputation was spotless. And the Russians weren't in a position to bribe any friendships from overseas. Even if they had been, it wouldn't really have affected be in any way. The other continent was a full 5-6 turns away, as the caravel/gallion travels. I would've annihilated the AIs pathetic "invasion force" of 3 longbowmen every 6 turns regardless.

Hmm, I was in democracy, but only after I realized that, unless I wanted to annihilate the Russians entirely and focus on warmongering my continent, monarchy was no longer necessary. It was more profitable for me to leave the Russians cowed and peeved than continue taking cities from them.

My initial plan was to switch to republic and then to communism later, should I find an opportunity to declare an overseas war. But given the circumstances, Democracy was just as good and somewhat cheaper for me in terms of unit support. And fighting sort of became passe.

Could it have been that the AIs were also all in Democracy, thereby increasing the likelihood of maintaining alliances with each other (this never occured to me in the game, otherwise I would've checked the Military Advisor)? Hmm...

@Oddible: Yeah, the other continent had a monopoly on 5 resources (except for 1 stray silk, I believe), and we pretty much had a monopoly on the other 3. That is to say I did, anyway (and man, was Catherine maaaaad! ). Sadly, the AIs were continuously trading it amongst themselves rather than with me. The only exception being my somehow-permanent deal for Chinese ivory.

I'm all for parity too, but there has to be a few moments where you can take advantage, parlay alliances against one another, play the power broker, and then be opportunistic. I never had a chance for any of that the entire game, sadly..

Yeah, I eventually won with the Space Race. I could've gone with the UN vote, but it notoriously ends up against me almost all of the time, no matter how peaceful/trustworthy I am. I know the Russians would've voted against me, and China was only a few hundred points behind me in the historgram score, so the chances the other AI powers would've voted for Mao were quite high, regardless of my bribes. And no one was actually fighting one another on the other continent, so that obviously wouldn't have been a mitigating factor in my favor. I figured it was too risky, so I went with the sure thing (launching my shuttle), even though it did feel a bit cheaply gained.

All in all, a bizarre experience. And one I hope I'm not subjected to again. Real world peace would be a phenomenal goal. But video games are supposed to be escapist pursuits where I enjoy things I never would do in real life, including pawning the world amongst the AI while scavenging the best parts of it. And it seems I never really got my shot at the other continent. Bleh...

The watcher.

 

[danz]

...I was under the impression that AIs always pulled the rug out from under a deal after the 20th turn, regardless of how sensible, in exchange for "a little more."

The AI only cancels a deal if they think they should get more. This often happens when your empire grows and that luxury that used to make 100 citizens happy now makes 150 citizens happy, making it's cost go up from 10gpt to 15gpt. Unlike techs, commodities are worth more to larger empires.

If the AI does not want to cancel a deal, it probably means that YOU should do so, because if you renegotiate you will do at least as well, and probably better.

The AI is no chump. If you let things go for centuries, you're probably the one getting milked.

 

[Waywatcher]

Unfortunately, there was nothing else to trade for. The Japanese were the only ones who had an available luxury they were willing to trade, which I snatched up immediately. I couldn't have gotten a sweeter deal as I was already ahead in tech, gold, and practically everything else. What was disparaging was the fact that none of Japan's other resources ever came up for me to make a bid on. And that goes for every other AI in the game.

I didn't know that deals weren't automatically renogotiated every 20 years (turns out this is actually an editable preference, as I found out). But, still, to have such a long and continuous state of equilibrium where none of the deals the AI made with one another are expiring and, ergo, no resources are being freed up - it was beyond the realm of expectation. And it really killed the international intrigue angle of the game, which is one thing I derive a lot of pleasure from with Civ3.

Hmm, well, hopefully I can just chalk it up to a "1 in a million" set of circumstances that won't ever happen again, and the AI can continue to lie, cheat, steal, and fight with one another as much as they do with me.

Thanks for all your input, folks.

The watcher.