Statue of Zeus/Templars too Powerful?

[NankingDan]

I've been playing conquests like mad since it came out, and I believe I've come to the conclusion that the Knights Templar and the Statue of zues are too powerful. To avoid a long rambling paragraph, I'll list some of my problems with the wonders:
Statue of Zeus:
1) It is resource-specific. I wouldn't mind this as much If there were other resource-specific wonders. the way it is now, ivory has become the sole most coveted luxury and thus other civs have no chance to benefit from the other luxuries they might own. I believe this wonder's construction is due almost to luck and good starting position.
2) The ancient cavalry unit is too powerful. In the ancient age, when militaries are small, a 3/2/2 unit is godly. It seems unfair that a person lucky enough to have Ivory is almost guaranteed a powerful military. Adding an extra health point makes an already powerful unit severly over-powered. Perhaps if they did not have an extra health point, or generated every seven instead of five turns, the wonder would be more fair to competing civs.
3) It is a boon to production, as they can be disbanded for shields or let a player focus on building instead of military. Not only does it dominate the military world, but helps domestically as well!
4) It lasts too long! There should not be ancient cavalry running around in the gunpowder age, and the lengthy time this wonder is active only serves to further how unfair it can be.
Knights Templar:
1) Once again, a severly over-powered unit. Since it is free, it should also not be god-like. I would have settled for a 4/3/1 crusader, but having an attack of five in the early Medieval times
is too much. War should be about strategy, production, and technological superiority, not wonder-building.
2) Lasts until steam power? Come on!

Yeah, so I'm complaining. I always get the Knights Templars and often get the Statue of Zeus (so I'm not just a sore loser), and I still think they are two over-powered wonders. War is a delicate art, and the spoils should go to the best-prepared, most tactical, and most committed side. I like the idea of Zeus/Templars, but I think they went a little crazy with the power and duration of the wonders. Does anyone else have thoughts on this?
P.S. Yes, I know it can be changed in the editor. This is a thread for opinion and debate

 

[Toaae]

I actually like the wonders. Now, I've never used Zues, but the Templar i have used. They are not overpowered. The Crusaders have only 1 move, so take a while to get to the frontline. Also, there is alot of strategy in using the Knights templar, unless you say there is no strategy in ALL wonders.

 

[Commander Bello]

I like them both.
Since I always play on huge maps, in 8 out of 10 games I don't have ivory, so it is one of the AIs to built the SoZ. KT depends on luck - if you are in a position to get chivalry really soon.
There have been games in which I just decided to avoid it and to bee-line for Military Tradition.
In all those cases the poor AI had at least some powerful units.

So, I vote for not to change either or.

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

Well, these wonders are there to add more variance to the game, and make it unpredictable. SoZ can give an AI civ that is generally weak in other aspects (bad UU, traits), a punch to its military, or make an aggessive civ like the Mongols nightmarishly powerful. This does reflect real life hstory to a considerable degree. The fun of playing civ comes to a large degree from its unpredictability. What fun would it be if you knew in every game who would get what? It would make it too easy to win.

If this is causing you trouble, you can always edit the wonders in the editor, increase the turns between unit spawning, decrease A/D/M, or whatever.

 

[NankingDan]

Yes, the wonders certainly can make the game interesting and increase it's replayability. However, in my current game, I'm the world super-power and I have both Zeus and Templars. Is this fair? Usually, highly sought-after wonders are not built by struggling nations. Thus, Zeus/Templars usually goes to one of the two or three top world powers.

 

[Commander Bello]

Is it fair, that you are the superpower of your game?

Come on, it is all about luck. Take the advantage, as soon as it is offered to you. And don't cry, if luck decides to smile to someone else.

 

[microbe]

I am lucky enough to be able to build SoZ in my last two games, including the current one - my first Emperor game. Not a pretty start, I didn't have Iron and failed to build philosophy and Great Library, but managed to build SoZ - I have used it to almost wiped out the Vikings and got Iron and two more lux. I think the tide is turning and I'm No. 4. I'm planning to wipe out Sumeria - he scores No.1 but has no horse and I could easily pillage his only Iron, so I'm gonna do it, but he has been a great trade customer as I have lots of resources he lacks, but oh well..he is next to me.

 

[lbhhh]

I would agree that SoZ and KT should become obsolete a bit earlier, maybe a few techs earlier each. Besides that I like these two new wonders, they add variety to the game.

 

[microbe]

Originally posted by lbhhh
I would agree that SoZ and KT should become obsolete a bit earleir, maybe a few techs earlier each. Besides that I like these two new wonders, they add variety to the game.

I don't think they should be obsoleted sooner - when Chivary comes out SoZ has become less effective already. But their extra health point is really nice.

I think these two wonders are more useful for human players as AI doesn't seem to know how to use them effectively.

 

[Commander Bello]

The problem is that the AI is unable to make correct use of any unit.... :-(

 

[wilbill]

Originally posted by Commander Bello
The problem is that the AI is unable to make correct use of any unit.... :-(

Well, I haven't had a SOD of AC appear on my borders yet, but it's always possible.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Originally posted by NankingDan
3) It is a boon to production, as they can be disbanded for shields or let a player focus on building instead of military. Not only does it dominate the military world, but helps domestically as well!

I agree with most of what you say, but is this one really an issue for you? Ancient Cavalry cost 40 shields, which means when you disband them, they give you 10 shields. So the wonder is giving you 2 shields per turn in one city. Is that really a boon to production?

Similary, is 1 unit every 5 turns really enough to let you focus on improvements instead of military? That's 4 new units over the course of a fairly long, protracted war. If I ever fought a war and made only 4 reinforcements in 20 turns, I'm pretty sure I'd be getting my butt kicked.

 

[stivomali]

I would not reduce the stats of these units. The "coolness factor" of these wonders is the effective second unique unit that your civ gets. If you got normal horsemen and medival infantry, there would really be no point to wasting the shields to make the wonder rather than pumping out horsemen and medival infantry.

I like these wonders as they are. To me the balancing factor is that these units don't upgrade, and while the wonders are active for a long time, about half the ancient cavs or templars are produced after they've become obsolete (i.e. you still get a bunch of ancient cav after you're able to produce knights).

 

[Paalikles]

Originally posted by NankingDan
I've been playing conquests like mad since it came out, and I believe I've come to the conclusion that the Knights Templar and the Statue of zues are too powerful. To avoid a long rambling paragraph, I'll list some of my problems with the wonders:
Statue of Zeus:
1) It is resource-specific. I wouldn't mind this as much If there were other resource-specific wonders. the way it is now, ivory has become the sole most coveted luxury and thus other civs have no chance to benefit from the other luxuries they might own. I believe this wonder's construction is due almost to luck and good starting position.
2) The ancient cavalry unit is too powerful. In the ancient age, when militaries are small, a 3/2/2 unit is godly. It seems unfair that a person lucky enough to have Ivory is almost guaranteed a powerful military. Adding an extra health point makes an already powerful unit severly over-powered. Perhaps if they did not have an extra health point, or generated every seven instead of five turns, the wonder would be more fair to competing civs.
3) It is a boon to production, as they can be disbanded for shields or let a player focus on building instead of military. Not only does it dominate the military world, but helps domestically as well!
4) It lasts too long! There should not be ancient cavalry running around in the gunpowder age, and the lengthy time this wonder is active only serves to further how unfair it can be.
Knights Templar:
1) Once again, a severly over-powered unit. Since it is free, it should also not be god-like. I would have settled for a 4/3/1 crusader, but having an attack of five in the early Medieval times
is too much. War should be about strategy, production, and technological superiority, not wonder-building.
2) Lasts until steam power? Come on!

Yeah, so I'm complaining. I always get the Knights Templars and often get the Statue of Zeus (so I'm not just a sore loser), and I still think they are two over-powered wonders. War is a delicate art, and the spoils should go to the best-prepared, most tactical, and most committed side. I like the idea of Zeus/Templars, but I think they went a little crazy with the power and duration of the wonders. Does anyone else have thoughts on this?
P.S. Yes, I know it can be changed in the editor. This is a thread for opinion and debate

Ancient cav:
Might be a bit powerful, but it is the RNG that counts, isnt it?
Those darned spearmen still keep winning

Crusader: Only one movement per turn - and only 3 in defense...So tactics are needed

Also, try looking at it this way:
I recently played a nice little regent game on a small map with max opponents. I was the Celts, but alas, I had only horses, and the nearest iron was on the other end of my side of the world.

Luckily, on regent, one might be able to build a few wonders from scratch, so I stumbled across both Zeus and KT...
While the opposition had iron, I had to face them with the following combination:
Catapults, eventually replaced by trebuchets
Horsemen
Ancient cavalry
and later Crusaders as well

when we entered the Middle Ages, these brave soldiers had to face Pikes....not always the easiest task, given the RNG

so I d say - there is still a great deal of tactics...even though regent level isnt exactly the most difficult level....

 

[Enkidu Warrior]

I think they last too long but it's debatable. I definately think that the rate of unit production should be dependant on map size. On a small or tiny map these wonders are vastly overpowered.

 

[microbe]

Originally posted by Enkidu Warrior
I think they last too long but it's debatable. I definately think that the rate of unit production should be dependant on map size. On a small or tiny map these wonders are vastly overpowered.

Then you should also make wonder cost dependent on map size (or continent size). The bigger map the more useful it is for most of the wonders.

I'm not sure if I want to go that way, though.

 

[wtiberon]

its not too powerful...if that were so then Celts would be unstoppable since they posses a 3/2/2 unit and can produce far more than 1 every 5 turns

 

[Longasc]

I agree with wtiberon. You can build much more military units, and that 40 shields will really not disbalance the game.

You are right that it is difficult to get Ivory, I simply have none as Babylon in Mesopotamia... but in this Scenario, the Temple of Artemis is much more powerful...

No, I do not think it is overpowered. And stop that "earlier obsolete" thing. I do not like building wonders that do not work longer than 30 turns.

 

[whatever_du]

In my current game (had them both at regent) Sure they helped me ... Ancient cavalry especialy is really strong early and maybe last too long ... but for thge KT ... crusaders are my defending units that I don't have to built cause my knights are way much usefull to attack and take cities ... because the crusader move is just 1 a turn ... it comes later then knith ... I don't think you can Use the Crusader to crash a Civ as strong as you .... just gives help ... And it is worth the price (shield) of the wonder... maybe i'd make the ancient cavalry a little less powerfull if I'd be using the editor ... so it isn't the Strongest Unit for almost 20 or 30 turns .... but hey ...
How often does AI attack your Spearman with Ancient cavalry ?!?!?
Good IF you have the SoZ ... if not ... pikeman will kill'em all !

 

[Masquerouge]

I'll say these wonders are great because they allow players who got no iron or horses to be able to build powerful units.
True, SoZ depends mainly on luck, but so does getting iron (especially in C3C with the scarcer(?) resources) and horses. A perfect strategy and master tactics can be of NO use if you have bad luck and get no iron.
Now, of course, when it's the most powerful civ with iron and horses that builds Soz AND KT, well that's unfair. But hey, life's unfair

And then again you have to input the size of the map. The smaller the map, the more powerful SoZ and KT will be. On a huge map, crusaders are not that great given you'll get, what, 10 at most ?