stealing relics

[Datian]

It has occured to me, while playing Poland, how inconvenient and unfair the relics system was. As far as I know, there are three ways to get them :

1. Being very, very lucky. The drop ratio has always been ridiculously low, and now that AI scouts are more fond of goody huts thanks to the last patch, it's even worse.

2. Letting martyr apostles (or khmer missionaries) die in theological combat. It's possible to pull but late, asks for a whole investment (Yerevan or the Mont Saint-Michel to have the right promotion), and relies on the good will of your opponents. The last patch has apparently made inquisitors much more popular for the AI, but still.

3. Trading them. Might as well ask for a liver. Most of the time, the AI won't be willing to part from its holy hand grenade of Antioch's pin. In my last game, the only way to get a relic from Frederick was a peace deal where I had to give back his capital...

It's really frustrating when you play Poland or Kongo. Getting a relic with them early in the game is a big advantage, a defining feature for those civs, it should't rely on sheer luck. At the very least, they should have a better drop rate from goody huts, just like Nubia has a higher chance to spawn near mining ressources.

There comes my point : I'd like to be able to steal relics. There should be two ways to do it :
- with a spy (if you can steal a huge statue, you should be able to grab a tooth)
- when conquering a city (and it should work with great works too by the way)

On a side note, I tend to think that getting great works when conquering a city has been considered ; it's the only explanation I find to the weird "you can't move a great work if you already did less than ten turns ago" rule.

What would you think of it ?

 

[AmtrakQuebec]

Sure, why not. That being said, point #2 in your list above is the way I always do it for Poland, and frankly, it isn't very difficult, especially now with the update to religion... meh.

 

[comatosedragon]

You can buy them from the AI, anywhere from 3K to 10K, IME on Immortal. (They usually wont sell them in the later part of the game though.)

Another reason why commercial districts are the best.

 

[bbbt]

It's true, you can't steal relics can you? I agree with you that you should definitely be able to. Especially, since that was actually a big thing historically, with a lot of relics being stolen to try and bring in the medieval pilgrim tourism.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I think the (religous) relics system is one of the worst aspects in the game and probably needs a complete retool.

Maybe it shouldn't come that early. When I become Suzerain of Kandy, it just gets silly.

 

[AmtrakQuebec]

I think the (religous) relics system is one of the worst aspects in the game and probably needs a complete retool.

Maybe it shouldn't come that early. When I become Suzerain of Kandy, it just gets silly.

BLASPHEMER!!! The Relic system is great! The Reliquaries strategy makes Civ worth playing

 

[Victoria]

I think the relic system is OK.
In the ancient and classical era the AI treat the relic like a piece of dirt, literally.
I can make a trade with Pedro, my jade to 6GPT is standard... I then ask if he can throw in the relic and he does. You just need a place to store it. I got veeeery close to victory once when I managed to get 3 early.

Someone once asked if You could have duplicate relics and what happened if you could not. I tested in a real game and got all 16 (now 24) and so it's not a problem getting them really.... IF you concentrate on it like any VC. It was not even that hard, just waiting for apostles was the hard bit.

While they can get you a very early win it is not easy and much more luck than judgement.

I like the enlightenment/cristo affects on them too.
I see no issue with you being able to steal them, it's just that currently it's easy to steal, storage is the main problem.

 

[lqwertyp]

I don't get this. You state that a relic is mostly a very early advantage and you want the player to be able to steal them. The problem is that stealing anything is way beyond the early advantage window of a relic. So there's not really a point of stealing relics late game with a spy. Only way I can think of is declaring war, kill the opponent's army and get the relic in a peace treaty. Works all the time

 

[Bobafett0610]

I think the relic system is OK.
In the ancient and classical era the AI treat the relic like a piece of dirt, literally.
I can make a trade with Pedro, my jade to 6GPT is standard... I then ask if he can throw in the relic and he does. You just need a place to store it. I got veeeery close to victory once when I managed to get 3 early.

Someone once asked if You could have duplicate relics and what happened if you could not. I tested in a real game and got all 16 (now 24) and so it's not a problem getting them really.... IF you concentrate on it like any VC. It was not even that hard, just waiting for apostles was the hard bit.

While they can get you a very early win it is not easy and much more luck than judgement.

I like the enlightenment/cristo affects on them too.
I see no issue with you being able to steal them, it's just that currently it's easy to steal, storage is the main problem.

They do have duplicates. I played a game where I had all the different types of relics; and in some cases 4-5 of the same exact one (5 sandals of the prophet for example). I don't know if there is a point where it stops; but it doesn't seem like it when I had over 74 relics.

 

[Victoria]

They do have duplicates. I played a game where I had all the different types of relics; and in some cases 4-5 of the same exact one (5 sandals of the prophet for example). I don't know if there is a point where it stops; but it doesn't seem like it when I had over 74 relics.

I suggest something was broken in your game but it may be something changed in the last 2 patches.

My reasoning is as follows
1. I tested it. I got all 16 and then my martyrs got nothing for death, not even a notification that there was none to be had. It is posted on a thread somewhere but it was tested. I spent about 4 hours doing it.
2. They have just added 8 more relics, why add 8 more if you can have duplicates? I guess to make it look more flavorful so it is a possibility.

Something to add to my list but testing everything again every patch would be meh. When did this happen?... this patch?

 

[Archon_Wing]

BLASPHEMER!!!

Naturally, you know how many missionaries I kill per game?

And while I like games being handed to me, having the luck, to get relics, and to get reliquaries first, and to fit Mt. Michel in this nonsense is actually kinda dull to me. It doesn't help that the only civ to actually get a religion faster is Russia (and maybe Japan). So even with a Civ like Arabia, I'd still have to rush to get a religion. Unless of course, I capture holy sites at the start.

Of course, the real reason why I hate these things is when someone else gets it and takes more of the good pantheons before anything can be done. I suppose they can also get lucky with the religous CS's but that is also just as annoying.

it's erratic and the choices aren't interesting. It's carried by luck based and unintuitive mechanics. The one civ that actually would make this into an active strategy, can't found a religion unless you also have the luck of starting near a civ that took that belief. You take reliquaries if you have them because the other beliefs suck anyways. I'd argue it's really just exploiting crappy mechanics, but then again I guess that's needed to a degree to beat the AI's bonuses.

 

[Scaramanga]

Naturally, you know how many missionaries I kill per game?

And while I like games being handed to me, having the luck, to get relics, and to get reliquaries first, and to fit Mt. Michel in this nonsense is actually kinda dull to me. It doesn't help that the only civ to actually get a religion faster is Russia (and maybe Japan). So even with a Civ like Arabia, I'd still have to rush to get a religion. Unless of course, I capture holy sites at the start.

Of course, the real reason why I hate these things is when someone else gets it and takes more of the good pantheons before anything can be done. I suppose they can also get lucky with the religous CS's but that is also just as annoying.

it's erratic and the choices aren't interesting. It's carried by luck based and unintuitive mechanics. The one civ that actually would make this into an active strategy, can't found a religion unless you also have the luck of starting near a civ that took that belief. You take reliquaries if you have them because the other beliefs suck anyways. I'd argue it's really just exploiting crappy mechanics, but then again I guess that's needed to a degree to beat the AI's bonuses.

I see what you're saying. Relics aren't for everyone and even religious civilizations like Spain and Arabia wouldn't excel because they are more offensive-minded when it comes to spreading. Naturally the best candidate to do Mt St Michel strategy would be France because of the wonder building bonus; they would wait to be converted and if the invasive religion has Reliquaries all the better.

 

[Temppu]

I suggest something was broken in your game but it may be something changed in the last 2 patches.

My reasoning is as follows
1. I tested it. I got all 16 and then my martyrs got nothing for death, not even a notification that there was none to be had. It is posted on a thread somewhere but it was tested. I spent about 4 hours doing it.
2. They have just added 8 more relics, why add 8 more if you can have duplicates? I guess to make it look more flavorful so it is a possibility.

Something to add to my list but testing everything again every patch would be meh. When did this happen?... this patch?

Yea I agree that the Relics do run out sometimes. Played with Khmer after the patch a reliquaries game and was wondering for a while when I no longer got a relic from slamming my Missionaries to suicide. Only after a while I realized that the Relics actually run out.

One interesting mechanic to get Relics would be to obtain them when pillaging the districts they are placed in. Other Great Works could also be obtained in this way. I would definitely love this: they tried to make pillaging more beneficial in Civ 6, but I feel that pillaging in general could use a buff. Getting Great Works would definitely make pillaging more relevant.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I see what you're saying. Relics aren't for everyone and even religious civilizations like Spain and Arabia wouldn't excel because they are more offensive-minded when it comes to spreading. Naturally the best candidate to do Mt St Michel strategy would be France because of the wonder building bonus; they would wait to be converted and if the invasive religion has Reliquaries all the better.

France since the buffs has been really good too. If you manage to capture some holy sites as France and can get it going, stealing art is also going to put you way ahead too, plus tourism from wonders get boosted. .Late game regardless of Civ, I manage to use the spy card to build a couple of spies and spread terror everywhere. Haven't gotten a chance to do it with France yet.

Egypt can also get it if it's on a floodplain as well. They could get up to 40% boost on it, though of course France will always get 45% if you take the card (which conveniently comes with the civic needed to build the wonder and autocracy

Personally, I think monastic isolation (no influence loss from losing in combat) seems pretty valuable here, though usually I suicide my apostles to the other side of the world.

 

[Victoria]

Only after a while I realized that the Relics actually run out.

Ty, you saved me testing it.

 

[Datian]

I don't get this. You state that a relic is mostly a very early advantage and you want the player to be able to steal them. The problem is that stealing anything is way beyond the early advantage window of a relic. So there's not really a point of stealing relics late game with a spy. Only way I can think of is declaring war, kill the opponent's army and get the relic in a peace treaty. Works all the time

There could be stolen early via pillaging or conquest. It doesn't make sense that great works and relics are destroyed when you conquer a city or an entire civ - the only way to get them by force is to extort them in a peace deal... which means, for a bloodthirsty warmonger like I, to let a civ believe I'm done with it for 10 turns, before mercy killing it

It makes me feel like I'm a bad person. I want to steal relics without feeling guilty. Oh wait, I'm a monster !

 

[Ivan Hunger]

There's a roundabout way of doing this already. Just trade some other type of great work for a rival's relic (in my experience, the A.I. will always accept this deal), then use a spy to steal back the great work you just traded away.