Still having trouble after all this time

[ew0054]

Hey all. I say with all due modesty that I consider myself a Civ Veteran. I have been playing since the original came out on SuperNES all the way up to now. I have mastered the first three games, but after two years of playing CivIV I am still having much trouble with the game and I don't understand why. It seems that no matter what strategy I try to implement, the AI gets so far ahead even on easy levels that I am left very far behind.

In CivIII the game always started out with the "land grab" where you try to blanket the continent with cities as fast as possible. I have tried pumping out settlers from the start only to find the maintenance builds up to the point where I have to reduce science to about 40% before the cities start to pay for themselves. I can see where this leads to my downfall, but if I try to hold off on building, it seems the AI grabs all the land and somehow they are able to make it.

Another strategy I have tried, which worked in CivIII, was to build only four or five "good" cities, and when I feel the time is right, start churning out soldiers to attack my neighbors. But it seems that if I hold off on building many cities, the AI somehow has like a dozen cities, all making military units, and they swarm me out of existance.

Is it me or is this version of the game somehow stacked against the player? Or am I just not "getting it"? Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[ew0054]

I have also tried building only a few cities, like 5 or so, spread out far in the cardinal directions. I emphasize building culture improvements so that the culture spheres "fill in the gaps", giving me a large territory with few cities. That way I can fill in cities later inside my own borders. But this strategy usually leaves me open for attack early in the game.

 

[Gwil]

What difficulty are you playing?

Aside from that, it'd be interesting to know your tech order, if you use the whip, understanding CoL/Courthouses etc. It's all a bit vague currently so comment is hard to make! I have just won a Prince game as Persia where I had 5 cities in the late BC/early AD - running a deficit - I finished with a win of 3 vassals and 2 cities to make the Dom limit...

 

[ew0054]

What difficulty are you playing?

Aside from that, it'd be interesting to know your tech order, if you use the whip, understanding CoL/Courthouses etc. It's all a bit vague currently so comment is hard to make! I have just won a Prince game as Persia where I had 5 cities in the late BC/early AD - running a deficit - I finished with a win of 3 vassals and 2 cities to make the Dom limit...

I have tried playing as high as Noble since the game advises it is a favorable level for veterans. On Warlord I usually end up in a war toward the end while being behind an age or two, but then the game ends. On the one above settler (my mind went blank I forget the name) I can usually keep up to the end, but the AI always beats me to Diplomacy or Space race. It puzzles me how with less than 10 turns left in the game the AI so suddenly and miraculously completes the spaceship almost every time.

Would it be possible for you to upload that game you mentioned as a save if you have it and I could study how you played it?

 

[Gwil]

I'd love to but I did it in one marathon sitting - it's the norm for me to play through like a drug addict.. I can recommend the ALC threads (All Leader Challenge) - that's how i've moved through the ranks - this time I did fall lucky. My micromanagement is minimal at best, but an experiment at SE (specialist economy) the last few games has taught me a lot.

Perhaps if you were to upload a starting save and then 2/3 saves after that - say 10 turns, 50 turns, 100 turns, plus commentary of what you have done in that time would help. There are a lot of people here who could give great advice. I myself would like to learn!

 

[ew0054]

I'd love to but I did it in one marathon sitting - it's the norm for me to play through like a drug addict.. I can recommend the ALC threads (All Leader Challenge) - that's how i've moved through the ranks - this time I did fall lucky. My micromanagement is minimal at best, but an experiment at SE (specialist economy) the last few games has taught me a lot.

Perhaps if you were to upload a starting save and then 2/3 saves after that - say 10 turns, 50 turns, 100 turns, plus commentary of what you have done in that time would help. There are a lot of people here who could give great advice. I myself would like to learn!

Hey thanks for the suggestion and advice! I will definitely do that with the next game I play, either later tonight or tomorrow, and I'll post a thread. Hopefully others can point out what I'm missing.

 

[Gwil]

If it helps, i'm gonna run this game here -

I did a random leader - we got this:

Fractal, Standard, Normal Speed - Washington of the Americans:

Expansive (+3 health, double speed harbour granary?)
Charismatic (+25% unit promotions, +1happy monument/broadcast tower +1happy per city)

 

[Gwil]

And lol - I already moved the scout etc... lemme start afresh.

 

[Gwil]

Here we go:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/45549/Gwilym_X_BC-4000.CivWarlordsSave

A bit of an ass start - no initial resources, but lots of chopping potential. For Roosevelt i'd aim for a dom/conq win funded by cottages. please feel free to chip in with starting moves, all. Clearly the Settler will have to move, so the warrior is going to too. Myself, i'd move the warrior NW to the forest and the settler N (depending on what was seen).

 

[ew0054]

Hey I just ran a game, too. I played until 1000 AD so far. verything goes so slow in the beginning and all of a sudden it's like "whoa it's the 1700s AD already".

I had a pretty decent starting point. I sent the warrior out to explore and built a new one. Then I tried to spread the new cities far enough so that I could eventually clear the jungle and build new ones.

 

[ew0054]

Here are the saves if interested.

 

[ew0054]

Oh yes and I did random leader (got Mansa Musa), pangea, small (5 civs), no tech trading (popular option in multiplayer, which I practice for).

 

[Gwil]

Djenne is a nice 2nd city - as is the capital. For Djenne though, the food (ie bananas and cow, when farmed) can yield specialists. If you prioritise Writing in the techs, a library can be whipped (slavery). 2 scientist specialists will pop you a GS in no time at all - who can be used to lightbulb a better tech.

Kumbi Saleh could shoot to be a commerce city - gems and silk/dye (? what is it - ctrl + R for the win!) could be heavily cottaged, especially for Mansa. Already I can see strength in your ideas of city placement - specialsing them (even half heartedly) can make a lot of difference. The capital could make a decent hybrid city - the food resources could be counterbalanced with a mine + workshops/cottages (extra hammer under US).

Edit: I don't see why you're building monuments in city 2 and 3? Border pops are good yes, but the resources those cities claim are in the initial 9 squares. I would personally set them to building barracks or another worker. Also, has copper been found? I figure not, as youre studying IW in 2000 BC. Other techs - meditation I would avoid, likewise mathematics (so early on anyhow).

It would be interesting to hear what your tech path (generally) is and why>?

 

[Validator]

I looked at the 1000 BC save and I noticed several things:

1. Mansa is Financial so you should have been building cottages in the capital instead of farms.
2. Djenne could also be cottage spammed.
3. Kumbi Saleh would make a good production city but you will need farms to feed the miners.
4. You don't have any military resources. There is a source of copper to the W that should be claimed ASAP. Apparently there's no problem with barbs at Warlord difficulty, but at higher difficulties not having resources for a quality military unit by 1000 BC would be a problem.
5. Your science rate is 80% so you should be looking to expand.
6. There's really no value to founding all 3 early religions.
7. You need to think about what your workers are doing (or if they're automated don't do that anymore). You've built several farms around Timbuktu that aren't going to be worked for a while, yet there are unimproved tiles being worked in Timbuktu and Djenne.
8. You haven't adopted Slavery yet. Timbuktu has plenty of food so slavery can be used to build necessary buidings and military there.

Overall your city placement looks good, and you seem to be in a reasonably good position relative to the AIs at this point.

 

[Cam_H]

(1.) Civics! [Edit] Cross post with Validator. Note Organised Religion too. [/Edit]

(2.) Gwil's right - Buddhism is already providing these cities with - unless shooting for a Cultural Victory a Monument is a waste.

(3.) Chop a Settler out of Timbuktu (about to go into Unhappiness) to grab that Copper.

 

[Gwil]

LOL - shows how much I properly looked -

1) Yeah - financial = cottages (a size 7 city is too big at this time, btw!)
2) Id still opt for food for a semi SE/CE hybrid economy.
3) Mines below the mountains? I'd treat it as a commerce myself.
4) Agreed. Copper = very important!
5) Yep.
6) Yep - last 3 games ive played and won I didn't found a single religion. 1 of 3 I adopted one, which was Brennus (Hinduism) I took him out and claimed the holy city for myself.
7) Yep.
8) Slavery = essential. Creating 5-15 axes in a handful of turns is key to early advantages!

 

[Validator]

3) Mines below the mountains? I'd treat it as a commerce myself.

I know that Kumbi Saleh has gems, but the other two cities have low production and I always try to have at least one production city in my first three cities. It may not be necessary for Warlord difficulty, but it's a good habit to get into IMO.

 

[InFlux5]

2) Id still opt for food for a semi SE/CE hybrid economy.

He's saying you don't run a hybrid economy with a financial leader. Two rivers running through grassland? Cottage spam. Period. Unless the food is so high that it simply must be a GP farm.

Even financial leaders should have a GP farm. But again, that land around your capital is made for cottaging. When you get into the Modern Era you'll be glad you did.

The only way farms can keep up is with a civics setup that's geared completely to an SE. But at that point you're playing as if you're Philo, not Financial.

 

[Leventis]

Slavery will help you out a lot. Having a size 7 capital at 1000BC is crazy - you should be whipping those pop away for granaries, settlers, workers, axes, etc. The other guys also make pertinent suggestions, but learning to use slavery effectively imho is paramount early on, and will lend itself to easy victories on noble. Try to play around with slavery and I guarantee you will be surprised by how effective it is .

 

[oyzar]

I saw that you got your first worker at size 3... this is probably a huge mistake. there are loads of threads in the forum about starting order and you will find that it is very very seldom advocated to grow much before you get those workers out there. Get your special resources hooked up asap. You have both pigs and rice in your capital which you should take advantage off. You also have loads of river which is very very nice to get cottages on since you are financial. Do you have the starting save? it is named initial save 4000 bc in the autosave folder assuming you havent started a new game afterwards. Growing the cities doesnt help much if you dont grow them on improved titles!!