Strange diplomatic events--MOO 1

[jmas]

Hi everyone. I wanted to ask about a couple of things I just saw in my last game, see if anyone can explain them. I was playing the Darloks. The Sakkras ran away with the game, owning 10 planets on a small map at the time event #1 below occurred, enough to trigger the diplomatic penalty described in the strategy guide (-1 points on the diplomatic scale with every race, every turn, per planet over 1/4 of the galaxy, which on a small galaxy map is 6 planets, thus the Sakkras' relations should have been worsening by 4 points per turn (about one-third of a level, e.g. "Neutral", "Wary", and so on) with the other races; I'm not sure if it affects my relations with them or not). I controlled 5 planets, LESS than the threshold.

1) With the Sakkras running away with the game, and a state of war between the Sakkra and Psilons, the Psilon ambassador (representing an Honorable Industrialist leader) tells me that the Psis will not "allow the Darloks to take over the galaxy." Huh? I didn't do anything to negatively affect relations; I didn't even have any spies in the Psilon empire at the time, nor any funds allocated to spy against them.

I offered them some tribute (about 25% of their per-turn production, as I reckon since they had the same length Production bar as me) on my next turn to improve relations, figuring that anything less than cooperation between the Psilons, me, and the other race in the game, the Humans, would lead to a sure Sakkra win.

Upon clicking "Next Turn" again, I got the exact same warning from the Psilons again! Probably the only reason they didn't declare on me then is that I did offer that tribute.

This time when I clicked "Next Turn," they DID declare war on me.

Why? Why did the Psilons fixate on me? I reloaded a save to check some details and clicked "Next Turn" a bunch of times; this time they didn't issue any threats, and trade eventually lifted our relations to "Relaxed", but they did send a fleet to attack one of my colonies.

2) Do Honorable leaders take exception when they catch spies of yours who are just hiding? That's not my impression from the strategy guide, but my relations with the Humans either started at or soon got to Restless, at a point where I hadn't done anything negative to them other than put a spy in hiding to see what they had, and the spy was caught fairly quickly.

The difficulty level was Impossible if that makes any difference in explaining these events.

 

[jmas]

To clarify #2: The humans of course were Honorable also (Honorable Diplomat).

 

[RefSteel]

Wellll...
I don't know for sure what the cause might be, but there is a small diplo penalty for having a spy caught, regardless of what it's doing, and Honorable races double all diplo penalties. Other things to keep in mind though:

- Inter-AI diplomacy doesn't work the way AI-player diplomacy does. Don't count on AI races taking a dislike to each other over anything short of actual war.

- You get diplo penalties with other races for "getting too big" when you cross certain population barriers (I don't know exactly what they are) regardless of your number of planets or whether there's an AI even bigger than you. This often happens following a new Terraforming grow-out.

- AIs will send "brush war" probing fleets or full-scale "cold war" SoDs at your world at practically any level of relations with you or other races unless you have a NAP or Alliance with them - and they like to break NAPs with no notice, also regardless of relations. If at war with another dangerous race, they are more likely to send their ships against that opponent (and less likely to be able to put a real SoD together) .... but there's no guarantee.

 

[vmxa]

I agree with RefSteel, you can get those hard probes regardless. You can get troops coming to your newly found colony any time.

I have no idea about tributes as I do not use them. I prefer to go along peacefully, until they DOW. Then I never agree to peace again. This keeps them busy sending ships at me in piece meal fashion.

That way I can handle them and they do not get those SoD fleets, very often. My main purpose though is to not have to spend any time trying to make trades or deals or responding to contacts.

I so miss repulsive from Moo2, they cannot have diplomatic relation, so much easier. Caught me spying, so what do I care?

 

[RefSteel]

Like vmxa, I never offer tribute in a normal game (though I don't go the full no-diplo route that he does) but my experience in testing and playing the "Big Brother" / "Power Behind the Throne" variant we used in OSG 21 did suggest a couple of things:

- Tech tribute is much more powerful (they get more, but you lose less apart from their gain, and the diplo increase is greater and more lasting) than cash tribute; we didn't even bother with the latter in OSG 21 in spite of actively trying to make Shandra of the Mrrshans win.

- The main effect of tribute is to move you up on the always-volatile relations scale. Thus, it won't (by itself) prevent AIs from sending fleets to your worlds. It can bring relations high enough to get a NAP, DoW on an enemy, or even Alliance, but only if used liberally. If you were just one tribute tech (or a few thousand BC of tribute cash) short of getting an AI to do what you want, the ambassador will generally let you know by asking for it as a "throw-in" when you suggest the deal.

 

[jmas]

Thank you RefSteel and vmxa, that was helpful. Just to clarify two things: the Psilons were already in a state of war with the Sakkras (though I realize that doesn't necessarily mean that they were actually engaging in combat) and the colony of mine that the Psilons attacked was not newly founded, but had been around for a while. I do understand what you mean that they may try "probing" the human player's worlds at any time. After reloading the save and seeing the Psilons attack but not threaten or issue a DOW, I wondered if they had decided to attack me and the only question was whether to threaten and/or DOW on me first or not.

Thanks RefSteel for letting me know that there is a diplo penalty for having a spy caught & about the negative diplomatic effect of having a high population. Do you know if the population is figured in absolute terms (e.g. AIs could start getting unhappy when you have >300 pop on a small map) or relative (e.g. 2x the population of the AI that then starts to get unhappy?) I had a larger population than the Psilons, maybe 2x their pop, can check sometime, but have to go to work now for night shift..

 

[RefSteel]

I believe the diplo penalty for high population is figured in absolute terms (or maybe relative to the total population of the galaxy) - others will know better than me. I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall getting "Pot:Kettle" growth complaints from large and dominant AI races, so I don't think it's just "you're too much bigger than me!"

Note that "probe fleets" and their big brothers, "cold war" SoDs, may also be sent to any world the AI can reach, regardless of how long you've had it, if the AI in question thinks it can crack your defenses and thinks that's the best use for its energy. I recall that Sirian said that are three true levels of relations in this game: 1) Hot War (all-out, declared war), 2) Cold War (undeclared), and 3) Alliance. There's no such thing as "peace" in between numbers 2 and 3 - just temporary periods of quiet.

One more word on diplomacy: Probably the biggest bonus you can get is for orbital bombardment of a race with whom your would-be buddy is (also) at war. If you had the wherewithal to reach a Sakkra planet and bomb it, that would have been the best and surest way to make friends with their Psilon enemies (as well as hurting the Sakkra of course). To be sure of keeping the Brains off your case though, you'd need to get relations high enough for a NAP (a temporary solution) and/or Alliance (for the long term).

 

[Zed-F]

Even alliances won't last if you don't maintain them by keeping a steady flow of positive diplo actions heading their way, though, especially once you get large enough to be regularly getting rep hits simply from being big. You pretty much have to keep your alliance block cemented together by finding or manufacturing a common enemy and then beating up the fall guy. If that fall guy happens to be your opponent in the election, that's a good way to get a diplo victory.

 

[Horizon]

Could it be that another AI was stealing Psilons techs and/or sabotaging Psilons bases, managed to get away with it and framed you ?

Maybe that's why the Psilons began to hate you without any obvious reason ?

 

[jmas]

It occurred to me that I might have been framed, but usually the message I have gotten from diplomats when that is the case is a message mentioning espionage or sabotage and saying "(you were framed)". In this case it did seem to relate to either my population or number of planets. Of course, I had only 5 planets. From my save, I see that I had 381 total pop around the start of the affair--more than twice what the Psilons had (140 pop), though of course RefSteel may well be right that relative comparisons are not a factor. If the AIs do get upset about a certain pop level, then that could also explain why our relations with the Humans weren't very good even though we had just met them (a little later in the game than the Psilon affair). I know RefSteel and Zed-F are right about the benefits of attacking a mutual enemy; however, in this game, the Sakkras had a much bigger fleet than anyone (especially mine, my fleet being mostly for show), and this being Impossible, one can expect lots of missile bases at planets.. and, Fusion Bombs weren't in my research list (nor, I think, Anti-Matter bombs, though it would have taken forever for my little empire to research them anyway)! For my part, I stole techs from the Psilons and framed the Sakkras, and vice versa, but I don't know whether it actually got them to fight in their putative war; though at least the Psis eventually stopped voting for the Sakkras (not that it stopped the Sakks from scoring a "conquest" victory with 2/3 of the vote by themselves).

I think there must be "peace" of at least a random 8 to 15 turns duration after the signing of a peace treaty; the strategy guide says the computer will always retreat its fleets without entering combat during that time. However, the AIs don't have the option of not landing and fighting with ground troops already launched. Certainly it does seem true that outside that context, good relations alone don't prevent AIs from "probing" and seeking more planets...though they might reduce the chance that the human player will be targeted (i.e., a random number generated to determine whether to, um, "probe" the human player would have to be in a smaller range, given better relations standing). For that matter, I remember reading (I think it was in the strategy guide though I'm not finding the specific part right now) that a NAP only reduces the chance of an attack against a player by a modest factor, I believe by 30 for a "die roll" of d100, and even an alliance, though it has a significantly higher modifier, doesn't totally eliminate the chance of an attack, though I assume the AI would have to take the step of breaking the alliance in order for ships to actually engage each other.

All in all, it was a tough game, more so with the Darloks as my race. I think I put in a respectable showing, but I will say, these smileys about capture my feelings during the game: , and of course finally .

 

[Inca]

There is one thing about the AI considering your planets as theirs. If they have projected at one point in the game that a certain star system should be theirs they never really give up on it - even if you still own it 300 turns later. You owning that system is a constant cause of unhappiness for them - even if you never realized they had plans for that system. So if they gain in strength and believe they might be able to take the system now even if you owned it for several 100 turns then they start to get unhappy with you.

If you know what star system they want to lay their claim on and you put a sizeable fleet in orbit there (in addition to planetary shield and missile bases) you will find that the AI sometimes will get happier with you again if your fleet in orbit of that system of yours is strong enough to to prove that they were just dreaming when they thought that this was their system.

On the other hand if you are just starting to protect a system that they consider theirs while you are owning it but your protection isn't strong enough to fend them off yet this (the act of starting to protect that system) will be considered the same thing as if you just colonized a world that they wanted (i.e. immediate declaration of war). But when this happens they mostly find out that my protection actually IS strong enough when their fleet finally arrives at that planet. So after a few futile tries to get that star system they will be offering peace again.

So basically they don't just tend to get unhappy with you when you are too strong but also when you are too weak. Actually the latter case is worse because their attitude towards you will deteriorate much faster.

I mostly ignore the phony "we will not let you take over the galaxy" messages. Actually I take those as a compliment. Once I get these messages I know I'm on a winning streak. Quite often they will even vote for me - despite giving me those "you have become too powerful" or "stop your ruthless expansion" messages. So I just don't care about this type of message.

If you are not the strongest race in the game and they still give you this type of message it also means you have a good chance of actually winning - in spite of not being the strongest yet. So even then I actually take such a message as an encouragement to expand even further.

 

[RefSteel]

@Zed-F: Thanks for the correction/clarification on Alliances.

@jmas: Yeah; from your description, that certainly doesn't sound like a winnable game (not winnable by me at least). It's true that AIs will give you an 8-15 turn hiatus, turning their ships around if en route, when they establish a peace treaty with you or when they buckle to a "threat to attack." Of course they return to their usual behavior after this random period. The AI also won't send new "probing" fleets to your worlds while a NAP or Alliance is in effect, but this is really just another way of saying the AI will break its NAP or Alliance with you upon deciding to send a fleet your way, as you point out.

Also note that you don't necessarily need bombs (though they certainly help a lot!) or a superior fleet to take a planet - torpedos, missiles, or even Heavy or Shield-halving beams will do in a pinch (and there are always nukes...). The keys to war in Orion are strategic speed, intel, and adaptability. Send a scanner ship to find a planet with relatively few missile bases and/or no planetary shield complete, and send in a rapid-strike fleet when the enemy SoD is elsewhere. Of course, if you weren't yet at war with the Sakkra, and didn't dare attack any of their worlds lest the most powerful fleet in the galaxy come raining down death on your worlds, that's a different matter entirely.

A final note, after all my rubbish about tribute and diplomacy: If there's a true runaway AI in the game, the other AIs will be distractions for it at best. In the long run, only you are going to be have a chance against (in this case) the Sakkra, so if you can't yet go after them head to head, it's usually best to expand your empire at the expense of one of the weaker AIs whenever (and if) you have an opportunity. (When all the planets in the galaxy are taken, that's how you "expand even further," per Inca's dictum with which I nearly cross-posted.)

 

[jmas]

Sorry for the delay in replying, I've had some things on my mind.

@Inca: That's interesting, what you said about the AI projecting that a system should be theirs and then being unhappy if you colonize it (but being happier, or at least not daring to be quite so unhappy , if you guard it strongly). I hadn't noticed that phenomenon, so will have to keep an eye out for it.

I understand your point about how receiving warnings about growing too large could reflect positively on one's performance in the game so far, but in this game the Sakkras really were runaways, with (slightly) higher tech levels than the relatively stunted Psilon (!) empire. So my modest performance might have been good without such a strong runaway, but didn't look so good with one; certainly I was nowhere close to winning. Now, I don't usually worry about whether I'm "popular" among the AIs, but in this game I figured the only chance was to prevent as much conflict (other than conflict between the Sakkras and anyone/everyone else) as possible. That said,

@RefSteel: I think you are right that generally it is up to the human player to take on a runaway in a meaningful way, and I see your point about expanding at the expense of weaker AIs in order to build up the strength to fight the runaway. The Psilons were out of my ship range for most of the game; I went back and was able to wrest my colony back from them, but only got Class IV shields for my efforts--not enough for a final war.

Your idea of raiding Sakkra worlds when their ships were away is a good one, but in this case I don't think I could have succeeded even at that, as they had good shields and scatter pack V. I'll post a save from 2413, shortly before the Psilon threats occurred (remember, they occurred only once, not on a replay, though the Psis did attack the second time) in case anyone wants to play around with it. As for me, the odds appear long enough that I will be looking for easier games..not sure if the Meklar one qualifies, I'm only around 2350 in that one.. The save is in slot 2.

One other thing, I'm not positive, as I don't make many NAPs, but I don't think the AI has to break a NAP with you before engaging your ships at one of your colonies. I think it would have to break the pact to engage you at an uncolonized system, as the pact prevents engagement there, just as an alliance prevents engagement from occurring at all (till broken).

 

[RefSteel]

One other thing, I'm not positive, as I don't make many NAPs, but I don't think the AI has to break a NAP with you before engaging your ships at one of your colonies.

You are of course correct; when for any reason a NAP'ed AI has ships at one of your colonies (e.g. you take advantage of the NAP to colonize a world under the noses of their fleet), it will engage in combat with any fleet you may have there (and send transports). In my experience however, they will not send a new attack fleet to one of your worlds as long as the NAP is in force (without first warning you by breaking it, that is). If the pact is formed while a fleet is en route however, the fleet won't turn around as it would for a threat or peace treaty.

 

[Andii]

When the AI threatens too much expansion, even though I am not expanding, just terraforming, I ignore it. It means you are winning, and the game is saying "hey, we won't let you run away with an easymode, turtled population win. If need be we will declare war on you just to give you a challenge".

I like to pretend they are real people, and when they threaten me it lowers their ranking in my books. If they keep threatening me, they go to the top of the kill list.