Submarines deserve more respect.

[Smash]

I think that there needs to be a new tech called sonar. Thus, only ships that are enhanced with this tech would be able to spot a sub at all

I kinda like this idea.Although one could argue it is allready in civ2 with Steel and cruisers.The sub is under done in civ2.No doubt about that.Not enough moves without Magellans and cruise misslies are a tad expensive.I always wanted a cheap torpedo unit.

As noted,sea control is not important or neccessary in civ2.vs the ai anyway.Perhaps this will be improved in Civ3 but I don't see how.The map you get really dictates how important ships will be.But mostly it is cargo vessels.Ship chaining really eliminates the need for any escort vessels.

Our best hope is an improved AI that will use units correctly and "intelligently".Then maybe Popeye will return.

 

[Az]

I think that subs are a quite well balanced unit in Civ 2

They have a good firepower, they're cheap and they can carry missiles

After all what more do you expect to do with a sub? Conduct shore bombardements?

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Subs did get the shaft in Civ2. I'd like to see(heh) real invisibility for subs. And a torpedo unit would be a great idea, a 20 shields 'naval missile' with maybe A-20 D-0 M-2 HP/FP-1/3. Just enough range to make up for a subs' lack thereof. One could even consider them wire-guided to explain launching and recapturing them, or just make it impossible to recapture them. Yeah, they blink at the end of the turn, and you either issue a GoTo command, or pass with them. Sounds complicated though...

 

[Algernon Pondlife]

from Smash
I always wanted a cheap torpedo unit.

but when you get it, the less effective arrow unit should become obsolete

 

[allhailIndia]

I think the idea of a separate torpedo unit is complete crap and you might as well have Sparrow and Sidewinder units for a stealth fighter. But here are some suggestions for a better Sub unit.

1.5 types of subs. A pre WW sub(as used by the Americans against the British), U-Boat,Diesel Sub,Nuclear Powered Sub and a Stealth Sub which cannot be spotted unless it is attacking. I think the curent sub unit in Civ2 i just bits and pieces of these types.
2.A little more speed for a submarine say 4 or 5.
3.The missile units in a sub are also hidden.(Due to a small bug in the game, you can spot the missiles carried by the eneny sub even if you cant see the sub itself.
4.Most IMPORTANTLY, ability to attack ships in port. This is a powerful weapon of an undetected sub to be able toattack very vulnerable targets in port.


[This message has been edited by allhailIndia (edited April 29, 2001).]

 

[Heffalump]

I agree subs need improvement. But I'm not a big fan of too many different types. They go obsolete to quick. Maybe a missle carrying sub and an attack sub .... and on discovering nuclear power their movement pts double.

 

[CMH]

someone said something about submerging and surfacing subs. maybe subs could be hard to spot underwater, but faster above water. didn't i see that this is true on the history channel?

 

[Micah]

I'm going to contradict everybody else and say that the sub unit now is more than adequate. Subs are slower than other ships. On attack they are strong, but if any other ship with some sort of offensive capabilities were to detect a sub it would be toast. Subs have little armour against attack. All that steel is to survive the pressures of the ocean not shells from attacking ships. Sure it is difficult to detect subs and you can find way more advanced subs now that in WWII. That is why only destroyers and cruisers can detect subs when adjacent to them. That was the primary role of destroyers in the battle of the atlantic during WWII. Any other ships can only see them when trying to occupy their space in civII. I think that is more than fair. As for the ideas of having different levels of sub advancement, in reality the only major differences are between diesel and nuclear subs. Diesel subs have changed very little comapred to the U-boat. Nuclear subs are still detectable, nuclear generators not being completely silent, and actually sound quite distinctive. The advantage to nuclear is the ability to move faster and stay underwater longer. That is why civ has the bonus movement once you research nuclear power.

 

[Fenax]

subs suck! i almost never use them, save in combination with a bunch of other ships. the Ai always knows where they are and keeps blowing them to pieces. the only useful place for them ive found is gaurding see channels sinking transports san smaller ships, not alone, but 2-3 or with a cruiser around. then they work great, at least for a time. AllhailIndia´s point 4 is great, expect someting like it is added in civiii

 

[John Bono]

I would make the following changes.

First, I would make two sub units, a diesel sub(the current unit) and a nuclear sub Attack 15, defense 3, hp 3/fp3, move 6. I would change the helo unit to have a move of 8 and the ability to spot subs at two hexes rather than one. I would also create an Aegis Destroyer to replace the regular destroyer attack 5/ defense 5.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

overpowering subs = worthless bships

I find 2 vet subs vs 1 bship = 1 dead sub, 1 dead bship...often if the bship is not a veteran only one sub required (if vet)

though I usually attack with 3 vet subs thus I always win.

With Magellan subs are fast and anyway should be operating from ports so as to repel bombard runs when they are spotted incoming.