Submarines

[BridgeBoy]

What are the advantages of submarines? Do any of you use them effectively? I never build them because it just appears that Battleships would be so much better. But I was just wondering if I didn't really understand how Sub's work or something. The manual says they only appear to attack and then sink out of view again. So what does that mean, that unless they are attacking, they can't be attacked. But, since their attack and defense values are relatively low, I'm thinking who cares, when they rise (appear) to attack, they'll just get sunk then...because they'll loose the battle with the battleship or destroyer or whatever.

Can anyone explain the benifits of Subs? Besides Nuclear Subs obviously transporting Tactical Nukes. And if that is the only advantage you might as well wait until Manhatten Project is done before you build any Nuclear Subs too.

 

[Tassadar]

i built some sub just because i like sub but i agree with you, battlship are better. i use sub to sink near pirate galley and i even receive damage, i lost usualy 1 health bar against pirate galley its crazy, how in a world a galley ( which is not suppose to see you) can dammage a submarine.
So why building sub, i like there sound when move and it make me feel like captain Nemo.

 

[sealman]

I upped their attack and hid their nationality to make them like modern day priveteers. I was tinkering with the idea of allowing them to carry a squad of marine as well.

The best use for them is when you are at war, station some off around the harbors of your enemies. You will blockade them and they will have to come out and hunt you down.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by sealman
I upped their attack and hid their nationality to make them like modern day priveteers. I was tinkering with the idea of allowing them to carry a squad of marine as well.

The best use for them is when you are at war, station some off around the harbors of your enemies. You will blockade them and they will have to come out and hunt you down.

that`s the only use but it means modding so I don`t really get why they`re in the game at all.

An idea that takes this a little further is making nuke also hidden nat if fired from a sub. Don`t know if that is possible though

 

[BridgeBoy]

Ok, so it sounds like the consensus is that the real advantage of subs (which must have inadvertantly got left out of the manual) is this then:

i like there sound when move and it make me feel like captain Nemo.

I can't believe I've been missing out on this awesome feature of the game!

I'll have to give Subs a try right away!!!!!

 

[LaRo]

Originally posted by BridgeBoy
Can anyone explain the benifits of Subs? Besides Nuclear Subs obviously transporting Tactical Nukes. And if that is the only advantage you might as well wait until Manhatten Project is done before you build any Nuclear Subs too.

Nuclear subs get one extra points for deplacement. They can carry nuke but you need to load them.

 

[Creepster]

I happen to love submarines, just not in Civ 3. The game has not been set up to take into account the real value of them. Part of the problem I think is that the game creators really do not understand what modern submarines are capable of. The naval combat setup of the game is extremely unrealistic.

I like sealmans idea of having the sub's carry a squadron of marines. This is something modern subs can do. How about laying mines in harbors, destrying profitable trade conditions between nations, intercepting enemy intelligence outside of the regular spy setup, these are just a few of the things that should have been included. The modern nuclear sub does so much more than just carry a tactical nuke. The word nuclear in the name has more to do about the propulsion than the weaponry, and that too has been left out of the game. Modern subs can travel great distances at great speeds, unlike their diesel counter parts.

One modern submarine today is quite capable of destroying a huge amount of ships. A battleship really is not a match for a submarine, let alone a galley.

DIVE...DIVE...DIVE

 

[Tassadar]

I would suggest to Firaxis to make sub able to do stealth attack against any ship not able to see them. so if a sub can attack a transport full of marine without taking any dammage then it will be wonderfull. Sub should only took damage against destroyer,battleshipe and aegis cruiser.

 

[Tassadar]

It remenber me that in world war 2 german almost win the atlantic war with sub. only destroyer with sonar capability protecting convoy were able to destroy u-boat wolfgang.

 

[graeme]

At the very least, subs should be able to target the transport in a stack of ships, seems to me that was why they were designed in the first place!

 

[Creepster]

At the very least, subs should be able to target the transport in a stack of ships, seems to me that was why they were designed in the first place

I agree with that option as well. It would allow for some balance in the game while allowing for a true advantage to the sub's capabilities. You truly do not know a sub is there untill after it has attacked. And one harpoon will take out those transports, before they even know the sub is there.

 

[Dralix]

You have to keep in mind that operating within the confines of the game will prevent things from being realistic.

For instance, the above suggestion would make it possible for a sub to slip out of port, destroy an escorted transport, then slip back into port, with no fear of retaliation. Not only is this unrealistic, it is unbalanced.

 

[Richard III]

I set up a ring of nukes around a big roman island once with nuclear subs. A nuclear triad, only it's a biad. There were two big nuclear superpowers - me (India) and Rome, and it was the first time I'd played far enough to get nukes. My logic was that I wanted nukes at sea, just like in the real world, in case a Roman first strike destroyed some of mine on the ground.

Sadly, never had the opportunity in the real game, since I won a spaceship victory. But replayed from a saved point just to see what a first strike could do.

Wow.

Love launching nukes from a platform instead of a city. That's one thing I miss from CTP1/2 - the joys of launching a bomber force for a long flight out to rain missles down on a distant and helpless nation.

It gave it all a Dr. Strangelove feel.

And subs are your only angle in for this kind of thrill.

PS I find they're good as picket ships, too - provided you're willing to back them up with, surprise, more CNs, BB's and DE's several squares back.

R.III

 

[Creepster]

Originally posted by Dralix
You have to keep in mind that operating within the confines of the game will prevent things from being realistic.

For instance, the above suggestion would make it possible for a sub to slip out of port, destroy an escorted transport, then slip back into port, with no fear of retaliation. Not only is this unrealistic, it is unbalanced.

I agree that there should be an option for retaliation, because just by attacking you did expose yourself. So you could have it set up that after the sub attacks you cannot move any more. Also attacks from the harbor would not be allowed. (The submarine should be submereged to gain any advantage). The defensive modifier for the sub should go up though from where it is. Subs go on a major defense after they attack, and are still hard to locate. Even after they are loacted there are several counter measures that are used to avoid being hit.

Also when a sub is on the defense, it is not necesarily attacking. So the attacking unit should not have to die. E.G. A sub attacks and destrosy a transport, it then cannot move. Next turn the AI attacks the sub with torpedoes and depth charges. The sub is in a defensive role here and should not be doing any damage to the AI's unit. If the sub succesfully stands up to the attack it should be relocated one tile over, and unseen. In all cases the AI's unit should be at the same strength it started the battle with. The sub would then have to attack that unit to take it out and the above repeats itself.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

A while back we discussed the possibilities of giving subs the abilitiy to shoot transports out of a convoy. We ended up with a general consten (IIRC) that there should be a pop-up window saying: "
You have choosen to attack a convoy! Which kind of ship should we try to target?
a) Transports
b) Escorts
c) Heavies"

Heavies being Battleships, Carriers, Cruisers

Now if you choose to go for escorts combat runs as usual against the Escort vessels (Destroyers and any older ship type except Galleon).

If you choose the Heavies, you have a chance at success proportionla to the number of escorting vessels (that is a Battleship does NOT give cover against sub attacks!!!!). If you get lucky, you hit, that is you fight a normal battle in which your A value is used. If you get unlucky, you may hit/damage a Transport/Galleon, but end up in a fight against an escort - or the escorts get to you before the attack - thus it`s a normal fihgt, too, but this time defensive using you D value against the escorts A value.

The only difference between nukes and older boats (besides A/D values) would be that with non-nuke boat, heavies and transports stand a small chance of sighting you, thus enlarging the chances of an escort attacking you or a slight chance of an un-escorted ship forcing you into a defensive fight. In this case though, the defenders D value would have to be used as well, since Heavies and Transports can only fight a sub while it is on the surface.

For this to work, subs would need high A but low D values!

 

[Creepster]

An interesting idea for combat Killer. It would be an improvement over what we currently have. My only point of contention would be that heavies can attack submerged subs too. If an aircraft carrier has planes it might have a few P-3 Orions (sub hunters) on it. The cruiser may be set up for depth charges and sonar to locate the sub. So they can fight a submerged sub.

The defensive value being lower to support your setup does bother me a bit though. I would have to try a few simulations before I was willing to accept that part of it. In a lot of the war games I played in the Navy we were able to succefully attack a battle group pick off the ship we wanted and get away without being located or attacked. For fun we even launched a counter measure flare and had it land on a carriers deck to show how vulnerable they were to us.

Now I realize Civ 3 is not intended to be totaly realistic, but the Naval setup is really not even close. I can play too many games without really having to have or use a Navy to win. The only real naval item needed is the transport to get over the water. And even then after you get an Airport they beome obsolete.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by Creepster
If an aircraft carrier has planes it might have a few P-3 Orions (sub hunters) on it. The cruiser may be set up for depth charges and sonar to locate the sub. So they can fight a submerged sub.

Sure, but I guess it wouldn`t be too much to count that into the (albeit small) chance of the Carrier finding the sub. OK, give Carriers and Cruisers a slightly higher chance than BBs.

The low defence value will have to be considerable higher for Nuke subs - but if you`re up against several escorts trained and built to the same standards, well.....

See how bad it got for the Germans in WWII....

Maybe we could do the values like this:

normal sub: A= 3x, D=x
nuke sub: A= 7x, D= 3x

x being a number dependend on the general values of naval units. This way, a defending nuke would still be a formidable opponent while a defending normal sub is practically helpless! (transport defence should be x, too). Remember I want to have a factor calculated into this depending on the number (and level) of escorts!

I guess this would be OK, even to simulate stuff like over-the-shoulder-launches of Tomahawks and other ASM like Harpoon.

Come to think of it, we`d probably need a seperat against-sub-D-value for ships!!!!!

Like BBs: A=54, D=48, D(S)=15 when normal Subs have A=15 (BBS ARE fast and hard to hit after all!). Nukes then would be 35 A against the BBs 15. Well, Harpoons and Mk 48 ADCAP make BIG holes, and you can`t outrun them

Whaddaya think???

 

[Creepster]

.Remember I want to have a factor calculated into this depending on the number (and level) of escorts!

I like that idea a lot. Mayby I mis-understood you earlier about the value for the escort. I really like the idea of having a variable defensive modifier for a larger escort. This helps to justify building up a fleet to support amphibios landings, and other naval attacks. It also justifies buiding up an escort to protect Carriers.

Your values for the nukes vs the convential subs seem alright. It definitley gives it a more realistic advantage, and justifies why you should build the more modern unit.

 

[Caesar_Augustus]

. . . Giving it a strong bombardment ability? This would simulate the sort of sneak attack ability that subs have. Also, you could give the sub the blitz ability, so then it could bombard and then sweep in to finish off its prey on the same turn (at least until the next patch, where you toggle bombardments to actually kill units instead of taking them down to 1 hp).

Of course, a problem would be that subs could then do coastal bombardments. However, this isn;t entirely inaccurate - sort of simulates the Tomahawk cruise missile that nuclear subs carry to damage land based and sea based targets.

I might do this for the nuclear sub, and then up its movement and attack a tad while taking the defense WAY down. Then I'll probably jack the cost as well.

BTW, has anyone ever set the cruise missiles to load onto subs (or any ship for that matter so long as the 'can carry tactical missile' flag is checked)? Does it work well in game?

 

[Tassadar]

Originally posted by Dralix
You have to keep in mind that operating within the confines of the game will prevent things from being realistic.

For instance, the above suggestion would make it possible for a sub to slip out of port, destroy an escorted transport, then slip back into port, with no fear of retaliation. Not only is this unrealistic, it is unbalanced.

Then it mean your escort wasnt protect by destoyer which is realistic to be destroy by sub. so taking a port defended by sub will need some unit combination prior to succeed.