Sucking after the patch

[HardCoder]

That is all well and good -- but the question you didn't answer is, 'how early is early'?

Do you go after enemy cities before your cultural borders are touching? Wouldn't the maintenance kill you?

I do war. However, I don't usually start warring until the Middle Ages. I wouldn't call that early.

When should I start?

Basically as soon as you have a buildup of 4-8 decent units (chariots, axes, horse archers even, jaguars, immortals ...) and a couple of cities that can stream you more of them, and someone to "receive" them. Stack up enough units to do the job and take out a city, either the capital if it's close or others if they're on the way. Raze it unless you know for sure you really want it, because at this stage you will only get to keep 3-5 cities without throwing your econ in the tank. It's simpler to raze because you don't have to worry about garrisons, and in truth you probably don't have units for garrison yet.

Find more enemies as you do your early rampage. When you see things starting to come to a close (longbows ....) then keep (rather than raze) a few well-located cities and prepare for the next wave. Meanwhile you should have wiped out 2-3 other opponents already.

If you are playing, say, Persia, and you don't find horses within a reasonable range like 10 squares, just start on a new map ... or grit your teeth and go medieval on 'em with any old unit you can build.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

I just sucked in the first four games at prince.
I relied too much on the CS slingshot and macemen rush, and I was too spoiled being the tech leader.
Without early bureacracy and macemen my research is slower, and I build a larger military since they AI is now on par with me on military tech (or ahead).
In my first 2.08 prine domination victory I was outteched by Wang Kong.
He had liberalism before I had paper and Philosophy
He also had Printing Press, Economics, Astronomy...I was used to always being the first with those techs.
I was lucky he didn't have gunpowder when I atacked him with grenadiers...

Some hints about the new AI:
They research early religions later. You can take your time to research worker techs and still found Hunduism or Judaism.
They build wonders earlier.
Earlier Alphabet. Don't be too reluctant to trade alphabe toi the AI. They'll get it anyway.
Trade more techs. Specialize on one branch of the tech tree and trade it with every AI in one or two turns. Resarch Currency earl, so you can balance tech trades with money and sell resources. This should bring you back to the top.

 

[Willowmound]

or grit your teeth and go medieval on 'em

Go ancient on 'em, more like

I'll definately give this a try. I'm still worried about putting too much resources into military that early, but I'll ignore my hesitance and try it regardless. Then we'll see

 

[Willowmound]

Some hints about the new AI:
They research early religions later. You can take your time to research worker techs and still found Hunduism or Judaism.
They build wonders earlier.
Earlier Alphabet. Don't be too reluctant to trade alphabe toi the AI. They'll get it anyway.
Trade more techs. Specialize on one branch of the tech tree and trade it with every AI in one or two turns. Resarch Currency earl, so you can balance tech trades with money and sell resources. This should bring you back to the top.

This confirms a couple of things I suspected. The later religions and the earlier Alphabet. Not avoiding trading Alphabet, is good advice. Earlier the AI never went for it. But as you point out, now they do...

 

[Watiggi]

I just played a game where I went for a warrior rush: I started the game, went straight for Bronze Working, (being Aggressive) I built a barracks and then built/pop rushed 5 city raider warriors.

The 5 warriors were enough to take down my neighbours capital (2 archers).

... then I realised it was on settler difficulty... arghh! I guess it could still work though. They would only have 2 archers in the city at the begining and 5 warriors are enough to take 'em out. Willowmound, it might be worth a try just to see what you can get away with. Just give it a game not thinking twice as to whether you'll survive it and play it out. You might be surprised

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

I'm left feeling like There's no difficulty that's good for me. I win noble easily, even with less-than-spectacular leaders(Izzie and the like), but I can barely compete on Prince as Civs like the Romans(Julius), English(Lizzie/Vickie) or Russians(Cathy.) Ugh...and I'm wondering how the AI grows its cities so big. Seems very fishy to me, some of them, because I saw one with like, two happiness resources, no religion, size 9. Non-charismatic, one food resource(grassland cows!) Hmph...and it also seems the AI is even more docile....unless it neighbors me. Had Qin and Monty declare on me, despite both bordering Izzie, who was trailing in the power score, and losing a war to me. Irritating how it seems you're even more isolated than before against the AI...

 

[Meatbuster]

Big cities by 200AD? Hereditary Rule.

And if I'm correct, the AI does have higher happiness caps on levels above Noble.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

Big cities by 200AD? Hereditary Rule.

And if I'm correct, the AI does have higher happiness caps on levels above Noble.

Hmm...you're probably right. I didn't think of it because I was annoyed. Have to wonder where all those workers come from sometimes though. I rarely make Monarchy a priority(I had plenty of calendar resources that time.) It's unnerving because the AI is just so much better, but they seem to tech pretty fast....even on Epic. I can barely rustle up enough axes for a rush before I'm in dire need of cats....and it seems Feudalism comes ~600AD or so. Insanity...

 

[Twiglet]

I can beat 2.08 at Prince pretty consistently on random-everything (sometimes with a few anxieties - but very rare to lose). So, time to move up. I can win at Monarch on a Tiny Pangaea map, most of the time. However even on a Small Pangaea map I get my Monarchian ass handed to me on a plate every time... Used to be reasonably comfortable at Monarch in vanilla before I bought Warlords and then patched it.

If you're struggling at Prince, play Tiny Pangaea maps for a while. It makes it much easier (though you will still notice differences from Noble). When you don't get regularly whipped, move up to Small and then Standard, and then go to other map types (all of which I think are harder).

At Prince, I think the following are important:

• Always have an early war (see other posts on this thread)
• Research BW really early, if no convenient copper go straight on to IW, if no iron either you're relying on horsies
• Don't worry if the city you plonk to gain a resource like iron or bronze isn't brilliantly placed
• Check the diplo screen when picking opponents. Triangle Diplomacy is your friend.
• Don't be afraid to trade any but your latest-bestest military tech. Certainly trade Alphabet.
• Trade non-mil techs the turn you finish them, to everyone unless one of your friends is at war with someone (trading with their enemy will get you -likeyou points). Usually these trades will be at a loss - don't let this worry you. This can also get you extra "you shared your tech advances with us" points.
• Take an early decision as to which gambit you're going for based on what you get in your starting location.
• Only ever move your settler if you spawn one tile from the sea; otherwise settle in place
• Don't bother with any wonders, except possibly the Great Wall (cheap early GE points, esp if you roll a Phi leader), Stonehenge if you have stone/are Ind.
• I prefer to capture the Pyramids rather than risk not building them. Working out who has built them is important as it usually dictates who I go after next.

Of course this is only for my playing style; others will have their own lists. I am a builder at heart but find it really hard to adopt anything other than a war-early style on 2.08 - however, having carved out enough of the map for yourself you can certainly consolidate borders and go Cultural for a bit of fun (or tech for Space Race if that's your thing - for me it's the Win Of Last Resort) rather than pounding out a Domination/Conquest win (Warlords makes Conquests more likely as having all remaining civs as vassals counts).

Diplo can be very irritating, you can be a fair way ahead of the other candidate in terms of +likeyou points and still have your "friends" abstain on you; however the last Diplo win I had the other guy built the UN (I wasn't going to) and I had enough votes to vote myself a victory (the fool).

In general the AI is definitely smarter post-patch (though not all the way "smart" yet) - they did a good job of that.

 

[cabert]

What I want corrected is the trading part.
When the AI was less than smart, it was needed to give them a reasonnable advantage in various matters.
One of those "hidden" bonuses is the way they trade among themselves.
They don't value a tech in the same way when trading amongst themselves as they do when trading with the human player.
This leads to an enormous tech lead by the "AI traders" at monarch+ level.
You already have a hard time coming up with a tech they don't have, and when you manage it, you can't trade it fairly because of the obsolete bonus.

Please Firaxis,
Remove the ishuman() stuff. At least for techtrading. It makes the game less than enjoyable after the patch.
There is a lot of balancing to do, if you include new ways for the AIs.
It's not very funny to see AIs building R'n'Roll in 1500AD.

 

[Twiglet]

That's a real difference - I'm finding I'm doing hardly any trading at Monarch because I've never got anything to trade, whereas at Prince the turn after Alphabet I swap loads of techs and often pick "unusual" techs to research so I can trade them afterwards. Usually I fall behind during war but aim to capture enough land for my economy to boost me back up - I can do this at Prince, not a hope at Monarch ("yet", he says hopefully...)

Certainly I'm finding the Prince-Monarch jump much harder than I did on vanilla.

 

[Watiggi]

Please Firaxis,
Remove the ishuman() stuff. At least for techtrading. It makes the game less than enjoyable after the patch.
There is a lot of balancing to do, if you include new ways for the AIs.
It's not very funny to see AIs building R'n'Roll in 1500AD.

Yeah, I second that. The 'ishuman()' part (as you nicely put it) makes the AI feel plastic - without an agenda - like they exist to entertain the human player.

 

[Murky]

I agree with aelf. With the patch you need to be more of an early warmonger instead of a builder. That isn't necessarily a bad thing. It is extremly important to control most of the strategic resources and land by mid-game now. You can't afford to waste time on wonder building like you could before.

 

[Willowmound]

Willowmound, it might be worth a try just to see what you can get away with. Just give it a game not thinking twice as to whether you'll survive it and play it out. You might be surprised

I did this last night (I don't have time to play all that often). I went against my gut and went BC-berserk!

And you know what? I was surprised. It went far better than my gut kept telling me. I netted myself a holy city, no less. I have been in a state of war pretty much since (we're now 1300 AD), and just got myself a second holy city (without a shrine, though).

I feel much stronger in this game, compared to previous post-patch games. But I'm still lagging in tech! How to deal with it? I was trading with my good friend Napoleon for a while, but he's shot ahead. He's got everything I can research now. Even my first victim, back in BC, the Egyptians (Ramesses) are ahead of me in tech now. And I left them with a single city in the jungle! Since then they have of course expanded, but still.

I'm worried that when I go back to finish this game I'm gonna start really falling behind. And lose. Again.

 

[Watiggi]

How many cities do you have? Are you bigger by far than the rest? If so, (...geesh, that sounds like the begining of an ad...) then move right into 'develop empire' mode. If you're sitting at say 20% research rate or something (or even 0%), start cottage spamming and do the ALT-click on city bar to light up all the cities and then have them focus on commerce. Doing that while cottage spamming will get your commerce up there rather quickly. Once your empire lifts in the commerce stakes, you start catching up in the tech area. Also, develop your acquired shrine. For the second holy city, work towards a Great Prophet and then develop that shrines income. The gold income is a godsend for the expansionist. Another thing, trade excess resources for gold per turn where possible and off course, build courthouses as well. Again, gold income is king for the expansionist as it aleviates the high costs of expansion, thus freeing up the commerce for research.

For this (by the sounds of it) being your first type of game like this (aggressive/expansionist), I would just quit conquering right now and move totally right on into building what you have acquired. Then, see how it goes. You might also be surprised as to how fast you can come back with developing a big empire.

 

[Godel]

What I want corrected is the trading part.
When the AI was less than smart, it was needed to give them a reasonnable advantage in various matters.
One of those "hidden" bonuses is the way they trade among themselves.
They don't value a tech in the same way when trading amongst themselves as they do when trading with the human player.
This leads to an enormous tech lead by the "AI traders" at monarch+ level.
You already have a hard time coming up with a tech they don't have, and when you manage it, you can't trade it fairly because of the obsolete bonus.

I was playing an Emperor game the other day and Mansa got the free GM from Economics before AD900. I managed to beat him to Liberalism in AD960, but only just. I have never been in a Liberalism race this early pre-patch. A bit crazy...

I also find that warfare takes longer because of the way city walls work. 4 accuracy cats no longer do the job. Before you get accuracy promos through civics it takes a long time for a level 1 or 2 cat to batter down those walls. Meanwhile the other civs are teching/trading away...

Edit: All this is at normal speed, it may not be so bad at epic speed.

 

[cabert]

All this is at normal speed, it may not be so bad at epic speed.

In my opinion, it's worse at epic (they have more turns to push the advantage).

In RK05, at 1220, all AIs have 6 to 10 techs on us (I must say we were slow), and liberalism is long gone, gunpowder is already there...
And it's only monarch!

There is no more realism in the tech dates. Prior to the patch, only the human (or a deity peaceful continent) could go for a completely out of history time frame. Now, prince and above are bound to see space race ending before the 19th century.

 

[Watiggi]

Wow, 4 aussies in this thread alone!

 

[obsolete]

Last night I came VERY close to finaly winning on Monarch, (but my ally backstabbed me!).

Started out with default settings. Yes, that means normal speed. I know I could have skewed things in my favour by slowing down the turns and doubling the values of my starting UU but I wanted to do this straight up.

My first capital was started in the CRAPPIEST of places. I only had one damn hammer, (from the city itself), which meant I was stuck pop-rushing EVERYTHING. What else can you do?

I was surprised to come so close to winning this one, but seems even the crappiest of places can sometimes works out not so bad. I ended up in wars constantly vs Cathrine. Taking one of her cities after another. Eventually I pushed her off my island and then I noticed I didn't even have calendar yet, but all the other AIs were stuck on one bigger continent, and already had apolo program built!!!!

How the hell? But it makes sense, when the AI's dont warmonger with each other, they get insane tech paces.

I was about to give up but by then my # of people were so large I was able to blitz through the techs very fast, even though no one would trade with me. And then a miracle happened, all the AI's started to fight just before they got thier space ships built, and somehow I got a few techs (for eiffle tower and movies) and was able to trade them. I also was somehow able to rush build the eiffle toward, and made the UN building.

Also I had a large ally with me on that other island, due to all the crazy trade favours I was giving him all game. He was friendly with me. And despite I was still so tech backwards, because I happened to be able to trade a tech or so with him in one branch of the tree he probably thought I was advanced, and we made a defence pact.

Unfortunately when it came to voting, he backstabbed my by abstaining when I simply needed only his vote to win the UN for diplomatic victory.

What bs! Never knew an ally who was FRIENDLY toward, and had a defence pact still going could do this to you. I don't know if monarch is just screwed against you with the voting, or if it's due to the new patch. What good is holding a un vote if even your allys refuse to vote for you? I noticed everyone else voted for the other guy, even though they had just recenty been warring against him. O_o

BS

 

[Willowmound]

How many cities do you have? Are you bigger by far than the rest? If so, (...geesh, that sounds like the begining of an ad...) then move right into 'develop empire' mode. If you're sitting at say 20% research rate or something (or even 0%), start cottage spamming and do the ALT-click on city bar to light up all the cities and then have them focus on commerce. Doing that while cottage spamming will get your commerce up there rather quickly. Once your empire lifts in the commerce stakes, you start catching up in the tech area. Also, develop your acquired shrine. For the second holy city, work towards a Great Prophet and then develop that shrines income. The gold income is a godsend for the expansionist. Another thing, trade excess resources for gold per turn where possible and off course, build courthouses as well. Again, gold income is king for the expansionist as it aleviates the high costs of expansion, thus freeing up the commerce for research.

For this (by the sounds of it) being your first type of game like this (aggressive/expansionist), I would just quit conquering right now and move totally right on into building what you have acquired. Then, see how it goes. You might also be surprised as to how fast you can come back with developing a big empire.

Just had another bout with this game. I followed your advice, and things are...okay. At this point I can see myself both scraping a close win, and losing pathetically.

It's not my first aggressive/expansionist game. But I haven't started the aggression this early before.

I wonder if the fact that I play civ (or any game) far less than I used to, has affected my abilities. Hmm. Maybe Civ isn't like riding a bike!