Suggestions to improve balance

Very good thread!

Can I offer a new idea -- I would like to sea naval superiority mean a bit more. I think that because movement is sequential, its hard to stop invasions even if you have naval superiority. I would wishe they built in an intercept zone like fighters have to stop enemy ships. Right now, naval units can be very important, but I don't think you sea England or Athens like powers.

Best wishes,

Breunor
 
I tried to get some "raw numbers" that quantify a bit the balancing situation we are discussing. As an example, I examined the following city (which seemed to me not terribly biased to any direction):

1 +3 Food Resource
1 other resource +1F (perhaps a cow)
8 grassland tiles, half of them next to a river
6 plains tiles, half of them next to a river

Of course I don't claim that this is a completely average city - I just picked it because I happened to have 2-3 such sites in my last game. Then I also used as working hypothesis that this city gets a granary as soon as it gets to population 4. With these conditions, I measured commerce earned for 256 turns (binary arithmetic is a bad addiction) by cottages for a non fin civ, a fin civ, and a "modified fin" civ with 1 commerce for each 3. Since 256 turns might not be enough to get to Printing Press, I considered Villages/Towns without the additions. I also checked the possibility to use only specialists in this city. The results were the following (as of turn 256):

Non fin civ with cottages: Commerce per turn 63, Total Commerce earned 10788.

Fin civ with cottages: Commerce per turn 77, Total Commerce earned 13572. Advantage over non fin civ: 22% in commerce per turn, 26% in overall commerce (total difference 2784 commerce!!!!)

Modified Fin civ with cottages: Commerce per turn 77, Total Commerce earned 13257. Advantage over non fin civ: 22% in commerce per turn, 23% in overall commerce (total difference 2469 commerce!!!!)

Since these numbers just come from one not exceptional city, and without even continuing to count for more turns (I used Epic speed, and Epic has 660 turns totally) it seems to me that the Financial advantage, even with the modification, is too much. Imagine only that this 14 commerce per turn will continue to add for the rest of the game. Maybe pop-rushing in some points would create some difference in the numbers, but the value is just too high.

These numbers also provide a good answer to whether Financial is more powerful than organized: you need only something like 8 such cities to overcome the Org discount for a civ with 28 cities, based on the comparison data from the Apolyton site - not to mention that with the Fin civ "as is" I could get much better results if the plains were water tiles!

Next I tried to count the specialists approach for this city (I had calculated it before, but my numbers were wrong because I hadn't included the granary). The numbers are terrible: 9190 Beakers (assuming Pyramids/Rep), i.e. 1598 less "output" than the cottages (and this from a single city). The only consolation is the 2752 GPP they gother (good for 5 GP). If it was the only city that would be more than enough - but if you try to do the same in many cities, you will not get much more GP.

For a Phi civ you would get 5504 GPP (8 GP from a single city). This is better, but still can't be easily scaled for many cities.

PS. In the calculations I ommitted the central tile of the city, because it doesn't make any difference in the evaluation (it only alters very slightly the percentages, but you can count it also yourself).

EDIT: Corrected the numbers for the specialist approach. I mixed up the XL files and mistakenly took the data from the "non rivers" version. The correct output is 9190 "Beakers+Commerce" for this specific case and 8256 for the "no rivers" case. One obvious observation is that, in the case of a city with no rivers, the difference becomes quite small.
 
Hi Roland,
You mentioned that you play on Immortal/Deity, but think that there are still imbalances.

This would imply that you win relatively easily, and you want a 'fairer' fight, correct?

I have not tried Deity yet, but I got my hands full on Emperor/Immortal. I had a look at the Hall of Fame lists, and there are many gaps in the aforementioned levels, you do not submit?
What victory, maps and conditions do you play? I find it hard to believe you're cruising for a win on Deity, with continets, standard map etc.

I have found that Space Race is the only truly competitive victory condition, it almost looks as the AI doesn't even try to win any other ways, that should maybe be modified.
Right now all you need to do is monitor how many spaceship parts have been built, but it would be nice to be kept on the toes with the AI going for a Cultural win as an example. They do get most of the early wonders after all.....

Cheers
 
Also, as the originator of that poll I must point out that only about a third of the people who cast actual votes felt it was balanced - which is a pretty small percentage when you consider that there are always people who will consider anything they benefit from to be "balanced".

Yes 1/3 votes unbalanced but more than half (excluding the last option) votes for should stay as it is.

Most people who vote have no idea what they're talking about. I'd much rather have a discussion with veteran players than put my faith in a poll collecting the opinions of a bunch of anonymous players. After having read some of the articles in here, you have to admit that chopping is overpowered. It's been proven through numerous analyses.

With chopping bonus reduced there's no way anyone can keep up in Immortal or Deity (especially).
 
The biggest thing i would like to see changed is the AI victory type settings. Often, the only victory type the AI aims for is space race victory. I think it would be extremly nice seeing AI's going after different goals. You won't have to beat Mansu for Space, but watch out for Toku who's conquering and be carefull for a small creative civs who are suddenly aiming for culture or Ghandi who is sucking up for diplo victory....

I think it's hard to realise but i would like this very much. It would take a lot more strategy decisions. Balancing your own strategy taking into account the competition, and not only 1 or 2 contenders.

@zombie, offtopic; your picture is from the classic game Kings Bounty right? :king:

Edit: Didn't read your post carefully, bonecrusher, but i totaly agree.
 
atreas said:
ISince these numbers just come from one not exceptional city, and without even continuing to count for more turns (I used Epic speed, and Epic has 660 turns totally) it seems to me that the Financial advantage, even with the modification, is too much.

Because you chose a city with a long river running right though it. Take a city without a river and you'll see a huge difference. Financial only adding commerce for tiles with 3+ is much worse than the original for anything but rivers and Colossus-improved coasts.
 
Kalleyao said:
With chopping bonus reduced there's no way anyone can keep up in Immortal or Deity (especially).

If that were true that would be great! It would mean you could play a competitive and challenging game without having to give enormous bonuses to the AI just to give it a chance.

However, i doubt this would be true, and i'm sure good players would prove you wrong. In fact, as i understand it, Roland already plays at those levels with the chopping bonus reduced and wins.
 
Zombie69 said:
Because you chose a city with a long river running right though it. Take a city without a river and you'll see a huge difference. Financial only adding commerce for tiles with 3+ is much worse than the original for anything but rivers and Colossus-improved coasts.
Well, not really: Data for the same city without any rivers at all (very extreme case, still...)

Non fin civ with cottages: Commerce per turn 56, Total Commerce earned 9246.

Fin civ with cottages: Commerce per turn 70, Total Commerce earned 11925. Advantage over non fin civ: 25% in commerce per turn, 29% in overall commerce (total difference 2679 commerce)

Modified Fin civ with cottages: Commerce per turn 70, Total Commerce earned 11505. Advantage over non fin civ: 25% in commerce per turn, 24% in overall commerce (total difference 2259 commerce). The only "real" effect is that a modified Fin civ starts to gain an advantage after 62 turns, when a Fin civ starts to gain an advantage after 32 turns (with the previous city example the numbers were 29 and 14 turns, respectively).

As these data clearly show, even without any river in sight (worst case by far) Fin civ hasn't lost much of his power. I don't think that this proposed change affects enough the trait as far as cottages are concerned - the only difference is in the sea tiles and resource tiles. Thus, we must estimate what percentage of our land is sea tiles and what is cottages. Note also that I counted only for 256 turns out of possible 660, and that for each turn after that the advantage would get bigger.
 
Zombie69 said:
If that were true that would be great! It would mean you could play a competitive and challenging game without having to give enormous bonuses to the AI just to give it a chance.

However, i doubt this would be true, and i'm sure good players would prove you wrong. In fact, as i understand it, Roland already plays at those levels with the chopping bonus reduced and wins.

If there is proof that he can win Immortal and Deity (especially), any victory condition with chopping bonus decreased by 25 - 50% I would be convinced.
 
Kalleyao said:
If there is proof that he can win Immortal and Deity (especially), any victory condition with chopping bonus decreased by 25 - 50% I would be convinced.

Again, why does that even matter? Wouldn't you rather get the same level of challenge against an AI with fewer bonuses? Or do you just play Immortal and Deity for the bragging rights? IMO, you should choose a difficulty level based on what you find challenging, and not what you can brag about. Personally, i'd much rather play a challenging game against an AI that doesn't get so many bonuses. The only reason i currently play at Immortal (and soon Deity since i'm dominating right now) is because i want a challenge. I'd much rather not have to give the AI such stupidly high bonuses just to get the challenge i want.

If you still want proof (even though it's totally irrelevant whether or not a Deity AI can be beat), ask Roland for a few saves of his. Maybe he'll feel like sharing them.
 
atreas said:
As these data clearly show, even without any river in sight (worst case by far) Fin civ hasn't lost much of his power.

I disagree with the conclusion. I think the financial civ in this example has been significantly reduced. Its extra beakers have been reduced from 2679 to 2259, a 15.7% decrease. Also, this is far from the worst case. The worst case is obviously a fishing village, where the original financial civ gains a 50% bonus on commerce for all coastal tiles, and a modified financial civ gets nothing. Since financial civs tend to love the coast, this will have a huge impact on them. Also, as for your cottages, commerce gained early is worth more than commerce gained late. Therefore the loss was much bigger than you make it sound.

atreas said:
Thus, we must estimate what percentage of our land is sea tiles and what is cottages.

I play only financial civs, and although this is obviously dependant on map type, i would say that typically about 1/3 to 1/2 of my tiles that benefit from the trait are tiles that only provide 2 commerce (coasts, cottages on rivers, hamlets without rivers, and a few other cases).

I'm currently playing an Archipelago game with Washington and it's ridiculously easy. I've got about 10 cities, and not even a single village or town yet, and i'm number one in score without a single war (playing on Immortal, around 100 AD now). It's so easy it's no fun anymore. Those coasts are providing for about 90% of my total commerce. I've got Representation and i'm not even using scientists because the coasts are doing a better job! I think the modified financial trait would be much more balanced on this map.
 
Zombie69 said:
I disagree with the conclusion. I think the financial civ in this example has been significantly reduced. Its extra beakers have been reduced from 2679 to 2259, a 15.7% decrease. Also, this is far from the worst case. The worst case is obviously a fishing village, where the original financial civ gains a 50% bonus on commerce for all coastal tiles, and a modified financial civ gets nothing. Since financial civs tend to love the coast, this will have a huge impact on them. Also, as for your cottages, commerce gained early is worth more than commerce gained late. Therefore the loss was much bigger than you make it sound.

We just examine the numbers from different perspectives. I don't think the question is whether after the modification the Fin trait is weaker than it was before that, but whether now it is extremely powerful compared to non-Fin civs. I just say that 2259 commerce in only 256 turns seem too much to me - thus I believe that even after the change Fin trait will be overpowered.

But I do agree this modification will drastically reduce Fin advantage on the coastal/island maps (perhaps, we can also say the same for many of the normal-or-smaller maps). In such a map, if we say that 1/3 of the tiles are coastal, Fin trait loses a huge part of its power. In larger "land mass" maps I think that Fin trait retains a big edge. Maybe it isn't possible to balance all things at once, unless you have also some tuning system depending on map type...
 
As i've discovered in my latest game, financial is most broken on archipelago maps. Therefore it needs tuning down most on those maps. I think this is a very strong point in favor of the 3+ commerce financial.
 
If you want a challenge against others with same bonus play multiplayer. It's not about challenges. You need a different way of playing on deity compared to noble. That's why I chopping is important. I could agree that it should be reduced on noble but standard deity wins needs chopping. And once again the AI can also chop, not as good as humans which is why people play online MP games.
 
I have to agree with Zombie that I would rather have a better AI on Noble then to be able to play Deity. When it comes to Balance Issues they should all be based of the difficulty level that is the most Balanced and that would be Noble.

What Voek said is the gist of most of the problems in that the AI doesn't play like a player and go after all the different victory condition. We need to see if that is possible or not. While its true that the AI may go to war but have you ever seen them keep going and try to dominate the game?

When it comes to the Financial Trait it is the fact that you can get that bonus and the edge very early in the Game and that is why is it such a dominating Trait. We talk about how chop rushing is effective because of the boost it gives you early. With the early Tech Lead with Financial you can rapidly expand and/or crush nearby opponents therefore giving you even a greater advantage as time gos by. By slowing down that advantage that is where the balance comes in. So i have to agree with the OP and Zombie that Financial needs a adjustment. The idea of the added trade routes is interesting but that will mean that the usefulness of the trait will depend on other CIV's and I am not sure you want to go that route.

If you guys are looking for some MOD's that incorporate some of these Idea's then take a look at the Ultimate Strategy MOD and Realism: The Third Resurrection located here........

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=161961

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=160088
 
Kalleyao said:
If you want a challenge against others with same bonus play multiplayer.

Multiplayer is not for everyone. I like to take my sweet time when playing, and like to be able to leave a game and come back to it later. There's no way i would ever like multiplayer.

Kalleyao said:
It's not about challenges.

Yes it is. There's no other reason to play at Deity besides bragging rights, and if you play civ for bragging rights, you should seriously reconsider your priorities.

Kalleyao said:
You need a different way of playing on deity compared to noble. That's why I chopping is important. I could agree that it should be reduced on noble but standard deity wins needs chopping.

So basically, you're telling me that you want Noble to be harder and Deity to be easier? I think you've lost track of what difficulty levels are for. They're not there to provide different gaming experiences. They're there so that anyone, regardless of their skills, can find a good challenge. They're difficulty levels for crying out loud, different levels of difficulty (challenge)!

There needs to be an easy Noble level for people who couldn't beat anything higher, and there needs to be a Deity level for people who would be bored playing at Noble because it's too easy. Not all levels should catter to your specific skills, that would be very bad!
 
Nightravn said:
If you guys are looking for some MOD's that incorporate some of these Idea's then take a look at the Ultimate Strategy MOD and Realism: The Third Resurrection located here........

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=161961

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=160088

Thanks, but i'm not interested in realism, and the other mod isn't for me either because "any alterations are made with multiplayer in mind above all else" (and i don't play multiplayer) and because it changes way too many things, while all i want is for the basic game to be balanced with as few changes as possible.
 
I win on immortal with minimal chopping in the early game. I don't even beeline to bronze most of the time as I think improving food resources ASAP is in fact usually a stronger opening unless you are doing the axe zerg rush. Not only does getting a 2nd city ultra early often hurt more than it helps due to the upkeep stifling early research, and if you don't have many varied food resources or are on Floodplains, being health capped in the early-mid game due to clearcutting is a poor trade off. The main exception to this would be if you are Axe zerg rushing anyway and I think that specific tactic should be weakened.

I agree financial is very powerful on archipelago because of the high number of coastal tiles typically worked there. However, you can just go up a difficulty level to compensate for that. Changing the threshold from 2cpt to 3cpt would just create a new issue where Financial players would race to build Colossus just about every time reducing the variety in gameplay. I think financial's current mechanic with 2cpt is a good thing from the perspective of varied gameplay because it encourages the use of windmills and coast on land based maps and thus variety in empire development. 3cpt would mean that Financial players would be *forced* to cottage spam and/or build the colossus and I can't really see this being a positive thing.
 
uberfish said:
I agree financial is very powerful on archipelago because of the high number of coastal tiles typically worked there. However, you can just go up a difficulty level to compensate for that. Changing the threshold from 2cpt to 3cpt would just create a new issue where Financial players would race to build Colossus just about every time reducing the variety in gameplay.

You can't go up a difficulty level when you're already at the max. The point is, i believe Archipelago with Washington is probably too easy even on Deity.

Even if what you say is true about the Colossus, it becomes obsolete pretty fast. Also, ocean tiles still wouldn't get the financial bonus, while with the current financial trait coupled with the Colossus, they do.
 
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