suomipeli

[sampsa]

Without opening the save, looking good, Robert! Hatty is @friendly which is awesome.

I think we need to think if we want to attack MM immediately or in 5 turns. Please don't play ahead.

 

[OtsoMaki]

To 600BC:

Spoiler :

Sotamarsalkka Sandels did kill the barbarian warrior!!

Yippee!!

I did settle the GPP into capital.


Then I just whipped and chopped out an army like this:

7 Vultures, 6 Catas= Not bad.

New maps:



BTW, we couldn't tech Lit:


We have not Polytheism... I started to tech poly but 0 its turns finished so you can change it if you like !

Thoughts??

Seems like you did well. I will look at the save later, but here are my thoughts about your report and pics.

Mansa has 6 cities, but for example Niani is crap and should be razed because it is one of the coast. AI seems to quite bad at chopping forests, so hes land is not going to be that well developed. I actually mentioned very early, that I did not want to lose the Niani city spot to Hatty. Lost it to Mansa instead.

Grasslands corn in the south is a positive surprise and we can have a city on the coast with 2 food resources and 5 riverside grasslands tiles. South also seems to be totally fogbusted so no more barbs for us (except for the Galleys that will most likely pillage our seafood).

We might have actually have too many vultures and not enough Cats, because siege will always have to suicide first against the best defenders at full Health and the Vultures will have better odds. Sandels should also be a part of the attacking force so that he can capture workers that we need to chop all those forests Mansa has.

Overall, we are attacking very soon and I think we should make some decisions about what we are trying to achieve with this war. How many (and which) cities should we capture? I will have to look at the save to see where his cities are, but maybe we could leave him with 1 or 2 cities and take all his tech in peace the peace treaty.

 

[Robert FIN]

Without opening the save, looking good, Robert! Hatty is @friendly which is awesome.

I think we need to think if we want to attack MM immediately or in 5 turns. Please don't play ahead.

Thanks, the worst mistake I made was that I forgot to move some workers IMO !I vote for straight attack to Djenne. I've moved scouts to spy every city he has (Sandels can be moved to the new site in 1turn) and he doesn't have enough units to fight us. Too bad that he has walls in his capital. I can't play ahead, its some other players turn who is after me in the list. We'll kick Mansa's butt !

 

[Robert FIN]

Oh, he has six cities already? I haven't spy'd 'em all then.. I want to capture his 1st 3 cities at least, others are a "?" for me, we haven't even seen them yet.

 

[OtsoMaki]

Oh, he has six cities already? I haven't spy'd 'em all then.. I want to capture his 1st 3 cities at least, others are a "?" for me, we haven't even seen them yet.

The number at bottom right corner next to the face telling the AI attitude shows how may cities the AI has.

 

[sampsa]

Seems like you did well. I will look at the save later, but here are my thoughts about your report and pics.

Yes! You exceeded the expectations, Robert.

Mansa has 6 cities, but for example Niani is crap and should be razed because it is one of the coast.

Most certainly.

I actually mentioned very early, that I did not want to lose the Niani city spot to Hatty. Lost it to Mansa instead.

I remember that you did, but that spot is simply unimportant. We already have phants and we are able to claim clams on the western coast. We have plenty of sites with similar value. And when we attack Hat, it no longer matters who founded the city.

Also, if we for whatever reason choose to never attack Hat, now that Mansa settled it, it blocks Hat from settling it. So we will get the site, don't worry.

Grasslands corn in the south is a positive surprise and we can have a city on the coast with 2 food resources and 5 riverside grasslands tiles. South also seems to be totally fogbusted so no more barbs for us (except for the Galleys that will most likely pillage our seafood).

It's certainly not fogbusted. There are at least 5 tiles where barbarians can spawn (by the corn). Robert, you were supposed to fortify Koff 1S of that corn.

We might have actually have too many vultures and not enough Cats, because siege will always have to suicide first against the best defenders at full Health and the Vultures will have better odds. Sandels should also be a part of the attacking force so that he can capture workers that we need to chop all those forests Mansa has.

Timbuktu with 60% cultural defense + walls is the only challenge. I still think we should march straight there as taking Djenne first loses time and then the path forces us to attack across the river or waste 1 turn more moving.

Overall, we are attacking very soon and I think we should make some decisions about what we are trying to achieve with this war. How many (and which) cities should we capture? I will have to look at the save to see where his cities are, but maybe we could leave him with 1 or 2 cities and take all his tech in peace the peace treaty.

I see two alternatives:

1) Tradewhore now. Currency+aesth for both of them nets us CoL+IW+poly. Then proceed to kill Mansa off completely.

2) Hold on to trades for now, capture 3 southern Mansa cities (confu holy city is on the marked spot, I'm pretty sure) and make peace for CoL+extras.

At first thought I prefer 1.

I can't play ahead, its some other players turn who is after me in the list.

OK. I thought you want to play 6 turns more since you were insisting on 15 turns before.

 

[Robert FIN]

The number at bottom right corner next to the face telling the AI attitude shows how may cities the AI has.

Oh, the trading list right? That's smart. I think that we don't have to share troops. Mansa is weak. I hope that the player who's turn it is could get the war started tonight ! Something that you wanna discuss? I vote for saving his 3 earliest cities and I vote for voting of keeping specific newer city before capturing it. Thoughts?

 

[sampsa]

Oh, the trading list right?

Scoreboard on the main screen, bottom right. You are running, BUG, right? edit: yeah from the screenshots I can see that you are.

That's smart. I think that we don't have to share troops. Mansa is weak. I hope that the player who's turn it is could get the war started tonight !

Young people are always so hasty.

Something that you wanna discuss? I vote for saving his 3 earliest cities and I vote for voting of keeping specific newer city before capturing it. Thoughts?

Keep all the others, raze Niani is kinda obvious I think. Anyway, his core cities in the south are important! Other cities much less so, the main reason to kill him is to get rid of unhappiness in his former capital.

 

[Robert FIN]

I'm proud of the round since it did "exceed the excentations". BTW I found that its the captain, Blue n' Black next in the list. Good luck! Nothing more to add unless you guys make new pointers ! Edit: Yes, I'm running Bug/Blue Marble ! You are so fast that I'm almost late in these posts ! City capture plan sounds acceptable too !

 

[sampsa]

On grand strategy - just remembered something that I thought about earlier. Astronomy is a great tech for our situation. We need to meet other continent(s) asap so that we get new trade partners (so that we can take the cities from our current best friend Hat), not to mention intercontinental trade routes.

How to get astro quickly? GS lightbulbs. How to bulb it? Avoid CoL and the bulb path is calendar-IW-compass-MC-machinery-optics-astro. 3-4 GS would get us there super quickly. GLib, NE, start golden age from music, you know how it works I guess. Need to think more about the trades. Maybe just go the conventional way, bulb towards liberalism and take astro with it. It does allow us to run pacifism which is great but might lead to a slower astro anyway.

 

[sinimusta]

Great, Rob mobilized our nation for war now it's up to me to start it.

Some thoughts before I make more detailed ppp.

I'd like to get one spear for stack def. Fortunately I could get one in Eridu in 2 turns but then I'll have to use 1f2h tiles instead of our cottages.

1) Tradewhore now. Currency+aesth for both of them nets us CoL+IW+poly. Then proceed to kill Mansa off completely.

I'd also like to get those teches sooner rather than later. We don't need to give currency to Hatty if we get iw from mansa. Or do you want to prevent mansa from bribing hatty against us? I don't think that's possible.

We have a couple of turns before war so I think we should at least search for the Mansa's unknown city at the SE coast.

I'll also move Koff to 1S of the corn.

 

[OtsoMaki]

It's certainly not fogbusted. There are at least 5 tiles where barbarians can spawn (by the corn). Robert, you were supposed to fortify Koff 1S of that corn.

I just did a search and realized that my knowledge of fogbusting was incorrect. I was under the impression that barbs cannot spawn within 2 tiles of any tile that is visible to the player or AI. It seems that the rule is within 2 tiles of any unit. My bad.

 

[sampsa]

I'd like to get one spear for stack def. Fortunately I could get one in Eridu in 2 turns but then I'll have to use 1f2h tiles instead of our cottages.

Yes, I was supposed to remind Robert to do it but forgot. You can switch Kish to spear, 2-pop-whip next turn. Borrow cottage from capital if you please. Uruk+Kish have been whipped good though but I think we can afford one whip more.

I'd also like to get those teches sooner rather than later. We don't need to give currency to Hatty if we get iw from mansa. Or do you want to prevent mansa from bribing hatty against us? I don't think that's possible.

War bribery is not possible, but I was afraid of some trading possibility between them. We are at +2 from fair trade with Hat now and I suppose it's enough to keep her friendly. I guess you are right, nothing to worry about and no reason to gift her currency.

How to get astro quickly? GS lightbulbs. How to bulb it? Avoid CoL

Let's just ignore the astro-bulb path and take free CoL.

 

[OtsoMaki]

Took a look at the save and here are my thoughts.

I would like us to locate all Mansa's cities before attacking. We have visibility of four and are missing the other two. My guesses are that the missing cities are 3/4 E of Kumbi Saleh and then on the horses 2S1E of Djenne.

IMHO we have too many Vultures compared to Catapults and should also build one spear as sinimusta suggested to protect us from chariots. Sampsa suggested a 2 pop whip from Kish, but that would lose the gold tile (not a big fan of this). If we work forest, the spear will be a 1 pop whip next turn and we won't lose the gold. An initial stack of 15 units should be enough for this war.

I vote for marching straight to Timbuktu because it is the hardest obstacle and will cause us most losses. After that we can decide how much reinforcements we need to take the rest of his cities.

Looking at the tech situation, I agree with sampsa and sinimusta that now is the time to tradewhore. Trade Currency and Aest for IW and CoL. Better now than later. If no one has begged gold from Hatty after me (was somwhere around turn 66), we can do it again.

Edit: Techpath should probably be Poly->Lit

 

[sampsa]

Took a look at the save and here are my thoughts.

I would like us to locate all Mansa's cities before attacking. We have visibility of four and are missing the other two. My guesses are that the missing cities are 3/4 E of Kumbi Saleh and then on the horses 2S1E of Djenne.

The marked spot on the floodplain can be checked this turn. If it's not there, it's on the horse. The other one is 4E of Kumbi in the north. You can conclude it when you zoom out and select culture.

IMHO we have too many Vultures compared to Catapults and should also build one spear as sinimusta suggested to protect us from chariots. Sampsa suggested a 2 pop whip from Kish, but that would lose the gold tile (not a big fan of this). If we work forest, the spear will be a 1 pop whip next turn and we won't lose the gold. An initial stack of 15 units should be enough for this war.

Meant Eridu, the city with floodplain cottages. Don't whip the fish-gold city, it has no granary so whipping is not that efficient. Eridu is working unimproved tile already and will grow soon again. Look into borrowing cottage from capital too.

Edit: Techpath should probably be Poly->Lit

Agree, make trades and go Lit.

edit: since we agree on major issues, green light from me to play when you are ready, sinimusta.

 

[OtsoMaki]

Is sinimusta supposed to DOW Mansa on his turnset?

 

[Robert FIN]

Sinimusta is supposed to DoW IMO! I courage him to play today !

 

[sampsa]

Is sinimusta supposed to DOW Mansa on his turnset?

I think yes - I'd gather what we have (wait for spear) and march to Timbuktu. I'm really tired so there might be some problem that I can't see. But I have faith in you guys. Team effort has improved a lot too imo.

edit. oh yes, there is one issue to ponder - should the cats suicide without bombarding? Timbuktu has walls so bombarding is quite inefficient. Use your judgement.

Obv micro tip: Lagash whip granary this turn.

 

[OtsoMaki]

edit. oh yes, there is one issue to ponder - should the cats suicide without bombarding? Timbuktu has walls so bombarding is quite inefficient. Use your judgement.

I did some test battles in world builder. I had 6 cats (5 CR1, 1 0xp) and 7 vultures (5 CR1, 2 0xp). I tested two scenarios: suicide and two turn bombardment before attacking. Ten battles each. I had Mansa defending with axe (0xp), sword (C1) and 3 skirmishers (CG1). When bombarded, I also added one more CG1 skirmisher. Here are our losses.

Suicide
2 cats
5 cats, 1 Vulture
2 cats
5 cats, 1 Vulture
3 cats, 1 Vulture
4 cats
3 cats
4 cats
4 cats, 1 Vulture
4 cats, 1 Vulture

3.6 Cats and 0.5 Vultures on average

Bombardment
4 cats
2 cats
3 cats
3 cats
4 cats
5 cats
1 cat
2 cats
1 cat
1 cat

2.6 Cats and 0 Vultures on average

 

[Robert FIN]

So bombardment is our choise, I presume . I always bombard off +20% cultural defence if I have siege with me. Still gonna play today el capitano? EDIT: And oh, I almost forgot to thank you for the research Otso ! It really was useful for sure. Good job team.